Fake, Clone, Copy, Idea user,

[Jens Schuetz]

A company claiming their placement of a lanyard hole is intellectual property is a joke though. Unless its part of a mechanism that pops out and sharpens the blade....

It's not IP as in patented innovation. It's just a trademark. You could compare it to a Mercedes star on the hood of a car or a Coca Cola label. Wouldn't want Pepsi to use it.
The only difference is that a hood ornament or label are more or less useless for anything else than brand recognition while a lanyard hole placement can be very much a functional aspect of a design.

 

[davek14]

It is important to recognize this is a knife forum and not an epi-pen forum. It is also important to read the stance of counterfeits of this forum. Failure to do so is not recommended...

I don't remember mentioning counterfeits sir.

They are the subject of this thread.

consider that many manufacturers have something close (a copy) to the axis lock. What are your thoughts. Kershaw's lawsuits going on now have me thinking about this, I have a DOC and love it but the lock is kind of Kershaw's idea. What does everyone else think.

That is the OP^^^^^

At which point I wondered at the status of the Axis Lock patent as I had seen in many places that it was expired. I would love to be able to buy a knife with an opening hole and an axis lock as it would be automatically ambidextrous.

I'm sorry but I believe having sole rights to an idea they licensed for at least 34 years is on the excessive side.

"Failure to do so is not recommended."????

 

[mtangent]

I think 34 yrs is excessive too.

 

[Neomentat]

Pretty sure the court has ruled that Spyderco can't patent a circular "hole".

Also Ganzo's axis lock is very different from Benchmade's Axis lock. Too bad they didn't change the name or appearance of the lock enough. If they called it Arc Lock, Ultra lock, Ball lock, what have you then they wouldn't have this perception problem. They're not even an American company for God's sake while all the aforementioned are, so there.

 

[craytab]

Pretty sure the court has ruled that Spyderco can't patent a circular "hole".

Also Ganzo's axis lock is very different from Benchmade's Axis lock. Too bad they didn't change the name or appearance of the lock enough. If they called it Arc Lock, Ultra lock, Ball lock, what have you then they wouldn't have this perception problem. They're not even an American company for God's sake while all the aforementioned are, so there.

The Ganzo lock is nearly identical to an Axis lock. If it was made here and called something else Ganzo would be sued and would lose. The Arc Lock and ball lock are very different. Not sure about the ultra lock but I do remember some controversy. Innovation isn't stifled by the axis lock patent as evident in other companies achieving a similar result in lock up but through different methods. The Axis lock patent only prevents lazy companies from benefiting off of someone else's hard work, except of course unscrupulous foreign companies that don't have to follow our laws.

 

[DrFish]

In my opinion, Benchmade retaining the Trademark on AXIS but not on AXIS-Lock has more to do with them taking ownership of the more general term as opposed to the very specific name "AXIS-Lock". If they had just trademarked AXIS-Lock, then somebody could call theirs the AXIS-Safety or the AXIS-Mechanism. By trademarking the more general term they cover their bases more effectively. It has NOTHING to do with them abandoning the trademark completely.

 

[Neomentat]

The Ganzo lock is nearly identical to an Axis lock. If it was made here and called something else Ganzo would be sued and would lose. The Arc Lock and ball lock are very different. Not sure about the ultra lock but I do remember some controversy. Innovation isn't stifled by the axis lock patent as evident in other companies achieving a similar result in lock up but through different methods. The Axis lock patent only prevents lazy companies from benefiting off of someone else's hard work, except of course unscrupulous foreign companies that don't have to follow our laws.

Angle of tang to lock engagement is different, the amount of lock bar to tang engagement ratio is different, the spring to actuate the lock bar is different. Ganzo version lock up is not very strong and bar is stiff, BM lock is strong and smooth to operate. Very different.

 

[Sirryacus]

Failure to do so is not recommended...

Why don't you reserve your threats for people who call over 50 people rednecks and white trash because their thread about overpaying for pakistan made knives was locked?

 

[Neomentat]

It is important to recognize this is a knife forum and not an epi-pen forum. It is also important to read the stance of counterfeits of this forum. Failure to do so is not recommended...

Holy cow dude, I've been reading way too many threads with you talking down to other members of this forum these days. You need to take a chill pill and get off your moral high horse. You are starting to sound like the Islamic moral police enforcing sharia law. Last time I checked you don't own this forum nor are you a moderator. You are going on my personal block list NOW.

 

[holdanedge]

Guy's, first of all I apologize for being a jerk. That being said, I do think Axis lock or even Liner lock can be and are patented. Spydie hole is not something they really can patent unless it has specific radius and dimensions. Then they could. As far as if something looks strikingly similar, well that is anything goes. Artwork, such as engravings most certainly can be patented. You guy's have to understand in certain parts of the world US patents do not apply and some just don't care either. However, customs can seize shipments and raid US warehouses of said counterfeit goods. For instance if you put Rolex, Gucci on anything even if they are not respectively a watch or handbag, patents apply. The namesake is a patent. If you guys don't like ripooffs just don't purchase them! it is not solely up to customs but up to the consumer. The truth is, you can obtain anything. Is it right for you to have it? Perhaps not. Also, you may be on the wrong side of the law. We could have cut this to but one post. Simply do not purchase these things if your morals tell you otherwise.

However what made me mad before is cheap knives are okay too. So long as they are not ripoffs. I understand the dislike of certain products. However there is absolutely nothing wrong with a Buck or Gerber. They may not all be the best knives but they are 100% Legit.

Esav, I sent you a PM. I appreciate that you did not ban me and shall refrain from engaging in defamatory behavior here ever again. I just wish a lot of folks here would have a more relaxed attitude and not be so quick to jump on each other. Myself included. We do not need to engage in heated arguments on matters such as the one at hand. Take it easy. I shall heed my own words as well. Furthermore I sincerely apologize to everyone in this thread and others.

 

[mtangent]

Guy's, first of all I apologize for being a jerk. That being said, I do think Axis lock or even Liner lock can be and are patented. Spydie hole is not something they really can patent unless it has specific radius and dimensions. Then they could. As far as if something looks strikingly similar, well that is anything goes. Artwork, such as engravings most certainly can be patented. You guy's have to understand in certain parts of the world US patents do not apply and some just don't care either. However, customs can seize shipments and raid US warehouses of said counterfeit goods. For instance if you put Rolex, Gucci on anything even if they are not respectively a watch or handbag, patents apply. The namesake is a patent. If you guys don't like ripooffs just don't purchase them! it is not solely up to customs but up to the consumer. The truth is, you can obtain anything. Is it right for you to have it? Perhaps not. Also, you may be on the wrong side of the law. We could have cut this to but one post. Simply do not purchase these things if your morals tell you otherwise.

.

I believe you are confusing patent with trademark.
Patents are for inventions with a practical purpose, trademarks are for identification.
Patents are meant to last for a defined period, trademarks can go on perpetually.

 

[holdanedge]

I stand corrected then. I do not really know a lot about that. I mean not like a patent attorney or anything. I was just giving it my best guess. I am sure you are correct.

 

[GermanyChris]

Guy's, first of all I apologize for being a jerk. That being said, I do think Axis lock or even Liner lock can be and are patented. Spydie hole is not something they really can patent unless it has specific radius and dimensions. Then they could. As far as if something looks strikingly similar, well that is anything goes. Artwork, such as engravings most certainly can be patented. You guy's have to understand in certain parts of the world US patents do not apply and some just don't care either. However, customs can seize shipments and raid US warehouses of said counterfeit goods. For instance if you put Rolex, Gucci on anything even if they are not respectively a watch or handbag, patents apply. The namesake is a patent. If you guys don't like ripooffs just don't purchase them! it is not solely up to customs but up to the consumer. The truth is, you can obtain anything. Is it right for you to have it? Perhaps not. Also, you may be on the wrong side of the law. We could have cut this to but one post. Simply do not purchase these things if your morals tell you otherwise.

However what made me mad before is cheap knives are okay too. So long as they are not ripoffs. I understand the dislike of certain products. However there is absolutely nothing wrong with a Buck or Gerber. They may not all be the best knives but they are 100% Legit.

Esav, I sent you a PM. I appreciate that you did not ban me and shall refrain from engaging in defamatory behavior here ever again. I just wish a lot of folks here would have a more relaxed attitude and not be so quick to jump on each other. Myself included. We do not need to engage in heated arguments on matters such as the one at hand. Take it easy. I shall heed my own words as well. Furthermore I sincerely apologize to everyone in this thread and others.

The Spyderhole is trademarked now so people can't use it same with the Emerson wave.

I'm not a big patient (especially with Software) guy but I'm less of a trademark to extend a patient guy. In the end though you have to make a values call and for me that means I accept something I don't like because I like buying Chinese stuff even less and there are so few things now that I can buy that aren't made there. This debate isn't going to be won so it's better that it not be had IMHO.

 

[craytab]

Holy cow dude, I've been reading way too many threads with you talking down to other members of this forum these days. You need to take a chill pill and get off your moral high horse. You are starting to sound like the Islamic moral police enforcing sharia law. Last time I checked you don't own this forum nor are you a moderator. You are going on my personal block list NOW.

Talking about me and not the subject. Sorry you are wrong on this subject but I don't see how discussing me helps at all. And bringing in religion with an Islamic insult? That kind of crap will get a thread shut down faster than me having to constantly read to you guys what the stance on garbage counterfeit knives is of this forum. I didn't write that rule, or come up with the the stance this forum has on counterfeits (though I do agree with this place) and nor do I enforce the opinion of this forum. However, I don't mind continually pointing it out to those who walk in here and praise counterfeiting.

 

[craytab]

Why don't you reserve your threats for people who call over 50 people rednecks and white trash because their thread about overpaying for pakistan made knives was locked?

I'm not threatening anyone. Nor am I insulting anyone. I'm sorry some people get offended when it is pointed out to them that their choice of knife is frowned upon here and that this forum thinks their choice of knife hurts our hobby. Sometimes reality hurts and can be misconstrued as a threat or insult. As for that other thread you mention? I don't recall saying anything there. The subject of that thread was very different than this or the other counterfeit threads.

 

[holdanedge]

I do not get why everyone needs to attack each other on this forum. Yes, I did too. Since people tend to defend themselves. Why does everyone here need to be so opinionated? This is why I have 165 posts here in 14 years. I just do not care for this atmosphere but I do enjoy collecting knives. Of all types and prices. I do agree counterfeit goods are generally shunned upon everywhere.

 

[OnceBitten]

Clones, copies, fakes, knock-offs.....call them what you will.....they are all forms of counterfeit....even without logos.

It is THEFT.

Every dollar spent on same takes food off of the plates of the people working for the authentic manufacturers, takes money away from R&D budgets, and drives up prices on the genuine article.

Real Knife Lovers buy real knives.

Anything else is Aiding and Abetting.

 

[Hackenslash]

I do not get why everyone needs to attack each other on this forum. Yes, I did too. Since people tend to defend themselves. Why does everyone here need to be so opinionated? This is why I have 165 posts here in 14 years. I just do not care for this atmosphere but I do enjoy collecting knives. Of all types and prices. I do agree counterfeit goods are generally shunned upon everywhere.

Clones, Counterfeits, Copies, etc are probably the most volatile knife related topic on this forum. Emotions run high because people care deeply about this hobby and want to feel justified with the decisions they make, or grow angry when they consider the hobby threatened. It's only a human nature that's exhibited across a wide spectrum of topics that bring along strong opinions.

Try not to get sidetracked by the emotions and negativity but rather take what you can by learning about opinions that you may not have understood or agreed with. I credit the members here, even when they shout the loudest, with truly being invested in our mutual addiction. I don't condone personal attacks or those members who wish "cancer" upon a fellow member for their actions (yup, it's happened...and from a "respected" member too, lol) but that's what the ignore button is for.

Also, I think there's a tendency on the part of active BF members to think that questions regarding clones, counterfeits and copies might be trolling attempts, particularly when the OP doesn't have a posting history. I'm not saying that's right, but I think it does happen.

Blade Forums is a great place to talk about knives, but this particular subject is one of the most difficult to navigate. This tricky subject is further complicated by the fact that opinions that aren't mine are clearly wrong and ill-informed .

Hang in there and I'm sure we can discuss this and come to the same conclusion we always do...a locked thread!

 

[craytab]

Clones, Counterfeits, Copies, etc are probably the most volatile knife related topic on this forum. Emotions run high because people care deeply about this hobby and want to feel justified with the decisions they make, or grow angry when they consider the hobby threatened. It's only a human nature that's exhibited across a wide spectrum of topics that bring along strong opinions.

Try not to get sidetracked by the emotions and negativity but rather take what you can by learning about opinions that you may not have understood or agreed with. I credit the members here, even when they shout the loudest, with truly being invested in our mutual addiction. I don't condone personal attacks or those members who wish "cancer" upon a fellow member for their actions (yup, it's happened...and from a "respected" member too, lol) but that's what the ignore button is for.

Also, I think there's a tendency on the part of active BF members to think that questions regarding clones, counterfeits and copies might be trolling attempts, particularly when the OP doesn't have a posting history. I'm not saying that's right, but I think it does happen.

Blade Forums is a great place to talk about knives, but this particular subject is one of the most difficult to navigate. This tricky subject is further complicated by the fact that opinions that aren't mine are clearly wrong and ill-informed .

Hang in there and I'm sure we can discuss this and come to the same conclusion we always do...a locked thread!

Emotions do run high. Look at this thread and the shirogorov threads. I've been called all kinds of names, even been compared to a supposed negative religious ideology. All I have done is repeat the policy of the forum on the counterfeit subject. Some people can't accept certain things so they lash out with insults. It serves no purpose and in fact detracts from their argument, no matter how wrong it may be . There are plenty of other places on the internet that don't feel the way bladeforums feels about counterfeits. I enjoy coming here because I know the owner and mods feel the correct way about counterfeits and have stated so many, many, many times, and have I mentioned BFC's opinion on counterfeits is outlined in the rules?

Like I said, there are lots of pro-counterfeit places out there, this is not one of them. Seems to me that people who are pro-counterfeit would have better enjoyment of this hobby as they see it if they spent their time in a place with people and staff who feel the same way they do. I know if BFC suddenly went pro-counterfeits and most of the members started promoting counterfeiting like in the rash of threads on this subject recently I wouldn't be spending my time here. Thankfully, that won't happen because this is a good community with mostly good members, run by good moderators, and owned by a good owner.

 

[Danke42]

Clones, counterfeits, etc. are all purely theft. Theft of the ideas and hard work of another person.

The thieves that make and buy them (and you have to take a long hard look at those folks who's first post is a six paragraph screed stating how good and harmless they are) are dishonest. No two ways about it. They're rather steal and take the easy path than sweat themselves. They always like to try and justify their their theft by saying things like "look at Brand Y, they made a Barlow knife and they're not the ones who invented it, or Brand Z makes machetes while they're based in Portland so they're stealing; everyone steals". The reality of those cases is neither Y nor Z are trying to pass those blades off as their own invention or craft and will always credit the original individual maker or culture that produced each.

The fakes do real economic damage to the brands they copy. That's not debatable; it's a fact. There is nothing good to say about them.

This forum trades on it's individual members word and trustworthiness. They're a direct contradiction to the ethos of this site and it's membership. It's a very shallow person who must have a knock off copy of a prestige knife to boost their ego. They come here again and again with their excuses but the reality is that what they spend on fakes would get them an excellent blade from an honest maker.