Fake Knife Philosophy In China

[bush-haus]

Really? Having a different take on this situation is "baiting"? Since we feel differently than you we are merely trolls just trying to get a thread shut down?

Please.

Feel free to report any of my posts to the mods, but nowhere have I seen that thinking differently than you is grounds for an infraction.

I am sure the mods are watching this thread fairly closely. If we have said something inappropriate I'm sure they will step in. To your point, having a different opinion does not mean we are baiting for specific responses but just trying to show a balanced reaction to his opinion.

 

[Hackenslash]

Changing font size and using cute smileys does not change that you are wrong. You are supporting a company that counterfeits lock designs and steals entire designs of knives. Keep telling yourself you're not if that makes you feel better.

The best thing you could do is learn something here. These are the facts of what you are doing. You can admit your wrongs and carry on or we could keep arguing. It is not necessarily my intent to change your mind but rather to show others who are reading this what is wrong with supporting such companies. Honest decent people willing to learn will understand and let their knife purchasing choices reflect that.

I don't think dingy is aware that most of the Ganzo designs that he admires are rip-offs and copies. I know if I were to see a Ganzo G704 or G710 for the first time I'd be amazed at the quality and design. Sadly, these knives are not original Ganzo designs, but stolen copies of HK 14205 and Benchmade 950 Rift respectively. Those are only two examples of a product line that largely features designs that have been stolen. I don't think this conversation can go on if it continues to hold anything produced by Ganzo in esteem.

Dingy, you need to concede that you may not be aware of which Chinese built knives were previously created, designed and built elsewhere. Once we get past that stumbling block, the discussion can continue. This is coming from someone who's spoken very favorably of Chinese cutlery in the past. I, and many other members here, can't support praise of intellectual theft.

 

[dingy]

Hate to break it to you, but those are knock-offs. It's very common to either outright counterfeit those brands (complete with logo, stickers, etc) OR to display an image of a known quality manufacturer's product when what a customer would receive is totally different. I've seen, for instance, some Chinese scythe manufacturers display pictures of genuine Arti (Russian) and Gunas (Turkish) blades. I showed those listings to my friend at Arti, who is the VP of research and development, and he was quite dismayed by it.

not the way think , baoguang machete company OEM for overseas company for years , no need to fool you my friend.

 

[bush-haus]

I don't think dingy is aware that most of the Ganzo designs that he admires are rip-offs and copies. I know if I were to see a Ganzo G704 or G710 for the first time I'd be amazed at the quality and design. Sadly, these knives are not original Ganzo designs, but stolen copies of HK 14205 and Benchmade 950 Rift respectively. Those are only two examples of a product line that largely features designs that have been stolen. I don't think this conversation can consider if it continues to hold anything produced by Ganzo in esteem.

Dingy, you need to concede that you may not be aware of which Chinese built knives were previously created, designed and built elsewhere. Once we get past that stumbling block, the discussion can continue. This is coming from someone who's spoken very favorably of Chinese cutlery in the past. I, and many other members here, can't support praise of intellectual theft.

The most concise response yet!!

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

not the way think , baoguang machete company OEM for overseas company for years , no need to fool you my friend.

Having extensive experience with both Tramontina's and Martindale's machetes, I can assure you that they are not made in the same factory. Likewise, both Tramontina and Martindale manufacture their tools in-house. Martindale in particular is a common target for counterfeiting because their English manufacture means they come at a very high price compared to other machetes sold in Central/South America, Africa, and other agricultural or developing regions of the world where they're well known.

 

[craytab]

I don't think dingy is aware that most of the Ganzo designs that he admires are rip-offs and copies. I know if I were to see a Ganzo G704 or G710 for the first time I'd be amazed at the quality and design. Sadly, these knives are not original Ganzo designs, but stolen copies of HK 14205 and Benchmade 950 Rift respectively. Those are only two examples of a product line that largely features designs that have been stolen. I don't think this conversation can go on if it continues to hold anything produced by Ganzo in esteem.

Dingy, you need to concede that you may not be aware of which Chinese built knives were previously created, designed and built elsewhere. Once we get past that stumbling block, the discussion can continue. This is coming from someone who's spoken very favorably of Chinese cutlery in the past. I, and many other members here, can't support praise of intellectual theft.

Yes, very good post. Like I also said, dingy needs to man up and admit his wrongs. He walked in and claimed to be an expert on the subject and then promptly promoted counterfeits. Man up, apologize for that, and learn something. Then you can continue with matters that you might actually know something about. Instead, by continuing to defend such products you are creating a divide that has caused one member in particular to hurl insults at those that disagree with him. This is what will get your thread locked. Continuing to defend counterfeits will get your thread locked. It is your choice what you do here dingy.

 

[dingy]

I don't think dingy is aware that most of the Ganzo designs that he admires are rip-offs and copies. I know if I were to see a Ganzo G704 or G710 for the first time I'd be amazed at the quality and design. Sadly, these knives are not original Ganzo designs, but stolen copies of HK 14205 and Benchmade 950 Rift respectively. Those are only two examples of a product line that largely features designs that have been stolen. I don't think this conversation can go on if it continues to hold anything produced by Ganzo in esteem.

Dingy, you need to concede that you may not be aware of which Chinese built knives were previously created, designed and built elsewhere. Once we get past that stumbling block, the discussion can continue. This is coming from someone who's spoken very favorably of Chinese cutlery in the past. I, and many other members here, can't support praise of intellectual theft.

sounds reasonable , but i confused a little bit now .

as you know that back lock / linner lock and flipper etc. those good designs come from western world , how about Chinese use these designs ? are we intellectual theft?
how about people on other corners of the world who use this good design , and do you think those guys are intellectual theft ?

and do you think Einstein is a intellectual theft who stealing theory from isaac Newton ?

sorry about those Q , i am getting confused .

 

[Zero_Time]

2. longquan in zhejiang provience , where make swords , some of them may followed the traditional way of making swords;

Please, would you share more about Zehjiang province? Do they make the paul chen/Hanwei swords? I know, can't speak, but please, more information on this area!

Yes, very good post. Like I also said, dingy needs to man up and admit his wrongs. He walked in and claimed to be an expert on the subject and then promptly promoted counterfeits. Man up, apologize for that, and learn something. Then you can continue with matters that you might actually know something about. Instead, by continuing to defend such products you are creating a divide that has caused one member in particular to hurl insults at those that disagree with him. This is what will get your thread locked. Continuing to defend counterfeits will get your thread locked. It is your choice what you do here dingy.

View attachment 594211

Zero

 

[dingy]

Please, would you share more about Zehjiang province? Do they make the paul chen/Hanwei swords? I know, can't speak, but please, more information on this area!


View attachment 594211

Zero

as i know paul chen/Hanwei swords is located in Dalian city Liaoning provience , and Huanuo sword company is located in shanghai .

if you wanna know more about zhejiang :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhejiang

http://www.china.org.cn/english/features/ProvinceView/156519.htm

 

[bush-haus]

sounds reasonable , but i confused a little bit now .

as you know that back lock / linner lock and flipper etc. those good designs come from western world , how about Chinese use these designs ? are we intellectual theft?
how about people on other corners of the world who use this good design , and do you think those guys are intellectual theft ?

and do you think Einstein is a intellectual theft who stealing theory from isaac Newton ?

sorry about those Q , i am getting confused .

I am NOT a patent lawyer nor do I claim to know anything about those laws other than the obvious. Most companies who innovate new ideas patent and/or trademark their ideas. That protects their ideas from intellectual theft. When copies are made, like the Ganzo's, it violates these laws. By putting a different name on the same design does NOT make it theirs.

If no protections were ever put into place, nobody would innovate--there would be no incentive.

 

[craytab]

sounds reasonable , but i confused a little bit now .

as you know that back lock / linner lock and flipper etc. those good designs come from western world , how about Chinese use these designs ? are we intellectual theft?
how about people on other corners of the world who use this good design , and do you think those guys are intellectual theft ?

and do you think Einstein is a intellectual theft who stealing theory from isaac Newton ?

sorry about those Q , i am getting confused .

You are continuing to argue with flawed logic. You have been here long enough to know the answers to these questions. You are asking questions to legitimize counterfeiting. Admit you were wrong and move on.

For such an expert in these maters you get confused easily and know very little about the subject.

 

[Zero_Time]

sounds reasonable , but i confused a little bit now .

as you know that back lock / linner lock and flipper etc. those good designs come from western world , how about Chinese use these designs ? are we intellectual theft?
how about people on other corners of the world who use this good design , and do you think those guys are intellectual theft ?

and do you think Einstein is a intellectual theft who stealing theory from isaac Newton ?

sorry about those Q , i am getting confused .

Dingy: Unless you're willing to spend the next page (at least) of hard to translate concepts, and go deep into history, patents, etc. know that this is a very long discussion.

The short version: there should be at least 15 years of protection of original ideas, uses, or designs, in some cases more. What is "fair" or not beyond that gets into uncertain territory: that of lawyers, philosophers, etc.

To answer your questions:

back lock- much older than 15 years, no patent applies.

liner lock- the name "linerlock" was protected, not the actual lock. It also is a variation of a design over 100 years old.

flipper- most common designs were never protected; and there are many implementations NOT covered by patents.

are we intellectual theft?- Intellectual theft results when it goes against the law/patent. A BIG reason everyone seems so concerned is that the US constitution, which most Americans on this forum consider to be one of the most important documents ever written and live their lives based off it (in part) mentions patents. In essence, most Americans here believe it is part of what makes America America. The first patent law in the United States was passed 1 year after the constitution. Many of the founders of this country were inventors, and considered it a top priority.


how about people on other corners of the world who use this good design , and do you think those guys are intellectual theft ?

Use of design is fine AFTER a certain amount of time has expired. The idea is that while the creator is alive he should become RICH from a good idea.

and do you think Einstein is a intellectual theft who stealing theory from isaac Newton ?

Einstein- Born 1879.
Newton- Dead 1727

Enough time that Einstein was safe

Zero

 

[bush-haus]

^^^ spot on

And yes, the US constitution is the greatest thing to have ever been penned by man. 😜

 

[fetzer85]

The teacher is learning today.

 

[Ankerson]

Dingy: Unless you're willing to spend the next page (at least) of hard to translate concepts, and go deep into history, patents, etc. know that this is a very long discussion.

The short version: there should be at least 15 years of protection of original ideas, uses, or designs, in some cases more. What is "fair" or not beyond that gets into uncertain territory: that of lawyers, philosophers, etc.

To answer your questions:

back lock- much older than 15 years, no patent applies.

liner lock- the name "linerlock" was protected, not the actual lock. It also is a variation of a design over 100 years old.

flipper- most common designs were never protected; and there are many implementations NOT covered by patents.

are we intellectual theft?- Intellectual theft results when it goes against the law/patent. A BIG reason everyone seems so concerned is that the US constitution, which most Americans on this forum consider to be one of the most important documents ever written and live their lives based off it (in part) mentions patents. In essence, most Americans here believe it is part of what makes America America. The first law in the United States was passed 1 year after the constitution. Many of the founders of this country were inventors, and considered it a top priority.


how about people on other corners of the world who use this good design , and do you think those guys are intellectual theft ?

Use of design is fine AFTER a certain amount of time has expired. The idea is that while the creator is alive he should become RICH from a good idea.

Zero

You are talking about US law and that really doesn't matter here in this topic.

All of this falls into International Law and International Trade agreements.

That's why most everyone in this thread is confused and their opinions are irrelevant.

And this really should be in Political in the 1st place.

 

[Big_jack]

Unless American patents are law binding in China it's not stealing. They have their laws that say it's okay to copy so anything else is just an opinion. And you know what they say about those.

 

[The Aflac Duck]

This thread is just going in a big circle and not getting anywhere...

What is really amusing, is everyone who is writing these huge TL;DR posts about who's wrong and right. In the end, you all are both wrong and right since each and everyone of us is allowed to have a different opinion.

"A different opinion?! That's sorcery!!!"

 

[dingy]

I am NOT a patent lawyer nor do I claim to know anything about those laws other than the obvious. Most companies who innovate new ideas patent and/or trademark their ideas. That protects their ideas from intellectual theft. When copies are made, like the Ganzo's, it violates these laws. By putting a different name on the same design does NOT make it theirs.

If no protections were ever put into place, nobody would innovate--there would be no incentive.

indeed , but are you sure that those patent was still validated out side of USA?

i respected intellectual works , so i am trying to avoid to buy copies .

but as a customer ， do you think i should know thoroughly on your USA patent list on knife ?

patent negotiation is supposed to be the Things of the two governments ,right?

i have been buying few Ganzo knives in China , and you guys do really think i am violated USA patent law ?
and do you guys really think this is a sin ? and i was gilty ?

behave youself , do not Naive like a kid.

if you guys do not like me , leave me along .

thanks.

 

[Zero_Time]

You are talking about US law and that really doesn't matter here in this topic.

All of this falls into International Law and International Trade agreements.

That's why most everyone in this thread is confused.

And this really should be in Political in the 1st place.

Ankerson, I completely agree. I'm not telling Dingy what he personally should believe, but explaining what everyone else on here is going to spend pages and pages trying to explain to him until he repeats back the points I wrote above to their satisfaction.

I'd just as soon get back on track discussing blades than talking about belief systems. For instance, I asked him about sword making there, and still am trying to learn more about the usage of Chinese kitchen knives (that look like cleavers, but dingy says don't call them that). I'd love to hear more about designs, knife legislation, exemptions from knife legislation, what the Uighurs have been using in their knife attacks (pictures), more about dingy's ideas on relative quality of various brands.

Zero

 

[Zero_Time]

indeed , but are you sure that those patent was still validated out side of USA?

i respected intellectual works , so i am trying to avoid to buy copies .

but as a customer ， do you think i should know thoroughly on your USA patent list on knife ?

patent negotiation is supposed to be the Things of the two governments ,right?

i have been buying few Ganzo knives in China , and you guys do really think i am violated USA patent law ?
and do you guys really think this is a sin ? and i was gilty ?

behave youself , do not Naive like a kid.

if you guys do like me , leave me along .

thanks.

Dingy: this is a knife forum, not a morality/philosophy/forgiveness forum. What I wrote above is what many people believe- and when someone challenges these beliefs or shows disregard, they will try to get in an argument about it. This is your choice to choose to continue the discussion, but I'd like to hear more about Zheijang swords. Does anyone make a good Bagua dadao? Other traditional daos? I'd love to hear more about designs, knife legislation, exemptions from knife legislation, what the Uighurs have been using in their knife attacks (pictures), more about dingy's ideas on relative quality of various brands.


Zero