Feedback on my Tanto design

[unwisefool]

Lemme show you some of my technical drawings of your knife real quick.



If you pulled back your scales to the red line, you could angle the plunge line to be more vertical which would do 2 things:

A) make the blade look longer
2} reduce cutting resistance at the back of the blade
iii) also make it easier to sharpen

I also might reduce the height of the harpoon bit on the top of the blade. It would make it fit better in a pocket and make the blade look sleeker and less chunky

 

[gazz98]

Oh, I do like the drop point version.

The pocket clip looks fine too.

Unwisefool makes a good point, maybe cut back the handles some. Somewhere between the red and green with a slight shift toward the red line.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

[...] Appreciate all the input. I will admit, I haven't handled a whole lot of knives, I live in a country where I can't freely carry and don't have the need for the functionality of a knife so I CANNOT design a knife for any intended functionality.

That is a fundamental problem, then, and so my recommendation is to either find a way to get experience with using knives, or else use your design talents in another field where you do have experience. Much like the old adage for authors, "write what you know", so, too, should you design what you know. If you want to design a thing, and you don't know about it intimately, your first step is to get to know it. Until that step is taken care of, you're operating blindly.

Hence I asked what my design seems like it will be bad at. So far, no one has addressed this specifically.

Again, depends on the context. Most design elements with knives will improve performance in one area at the expense of another, and so it's about making smart tradeoffs. Tanto style blades, for instance, are good at scraping or chiseling with the kissaki, and the point at the yokote acts almost like a single serration that can penetrate to initiate a cut or prevent blunting of the rest of the blade against steel, ceramic, etc. backing surfaces since it's a single point of contact against it. The idea of them somehow making superior penetrating blades is largely myth. The lack of a belly makes cuts in hollows difficult, but the flat edges can make precise cuts easier in some contexts. It's also difficult to use all parts of the blade relatively equally, so you'll usually see the most dulling on either side of the yokote.

A wide blade will track strongly in a cut, and so is good when you're trying to make straight cuts, and it reduces your minimum possible primary grind angle, but makes turning in the cut more difficult.

Of course the intention is to make a good knife else I could make G10/ D2 variants to retail at $30 but without specific feedback, I cannot improve. This reminds of me how you need experience to get a job and also a job to gain experience. It's a catch 22.

Except in this case it's more like painting. You can paint as a hobby to build experience, and if you build up enough experience with enough hard work and dedication you can get a job as a professional painter. Again, learn the variables of the craft and what effect they create on the performance qualities of a piece. Use those as the fundamental building blocks of the design. Take tasks, and break them down to see what is considered a help in that task and what is considered a hindrance. Then figure out what features provide what benefits and balance the performance qualities to the context of use. Think of the prioritized range of tasks that might to be tackled: say it has to be capable of handling tasks A, B, and C. Is it mostly going to be used for application A, some of application B, and rarely C (but it still has to be able to do it) or is it mostly B, some C, and rarely A? Two tools each capable of handling tasks A, B, and C but prioritized differently will often look radically different from one another. That's why optimization depends so greatly on context, and why it's so important to understand the building blocks of the product class and what the envisioned end user is doing with it.

So I'd love if I get some constructive criticism instead. What makes this design gas station or non functional or outright useless to some?

You've gotten a lot of constructive criticism, but I'd say what you mostly need to do is back up a few steps to get your founding premise sorted out. Then you can make adjustments to the design to reconfigure it for that premise. Be like this bee. It's an iterative process that starts with the problem you're trying to solve and works from there.

 

[Quiet]

Gotta say, I've seen a TON of well-respected makers who release designs that are very well regarded that violate all of the "advice" and heavy-handed trash criticism being leveled at this guy in this thread.

"Well it has to have a purpose!!"

What? No it doesn't. There are a ton of knives that serve no purpose other than to look good, and have a sharp edge for cutting things. If we looked at every maker through a lens of the idea that every knife needs to be the most optimized cutting tool available, there are an awful lot of knives that people carry and enjoy today (that perform just fine) that wouldn't exist. If you don't like this guy's knife, that's fine. I don't like it either, but let's not be asshat hypocrites, alright? There's a bunch of makers right here in our various sections whose knives wouldn't stand up to these "critiques" either.

"Well you should use knives in order to sell knives!"

What? If he's ever cut something, and this knife will cut something (provided it's sharp enough) then he's done his job. He's got a design he favors, and wants to bring it to market. Is it interesting to me personally? No. It looks like it'll be another S35v/Ti scaled "art knife" design. Same could be said for a ton of things that again, plenty of well respected makers are putting out, or designing for a Chinese company to put out.

This whole thread is garbage clownballs, and sure I don't like Chinese knives, am not the target market for this guy, and won't be buying this knife, but let's stop acting like anyone here is somehow the arbiter of what's correct or not correct. I bet this guy will sell plenty of these knives just fine. Ask BladeHQ (one of our sponsors) how well a lot of the crazy nonsense designs they sell from WE/Reate/Kizer are selling. Spoiler alert: they sell just fine.

Criminy, reading this thread and watching our resident attack dog attempt to trash this whole thing was disgusting.

 

[jaseman]

The question is not whether or not the knife can cut stuff--making a knife that can cut stuff isn't particularly difficult. It's another matter entirely to design a knife that will excel in its intended role.

This line sums it up perfectly. An envelope will easily give you a paper-cut, but you wouldn't rely on it as a tool. Same with a broken piece of glass. Just because you can make something sharp, doesn't automatically make it a useful cutting tool. Take a look at what prehistoric man did to shape materials into cutting tools, even back then you can see there was some thought into how they broke, chipped, and polished flint, obsidian, and other stones to create shapes that were useful as knives, axes, spears, etc.

As a species, we found out pretty early on that it was better to design our tools with a purpose in mind.

OK, so in summary, some like the design, some hate it, some don't buy chines, some do, 1 was really upset that I didn't spend years honing my skills before putting something in front of them. Appreciate all the input. I will admit, I haven't handled a whole lot of knives, I live in a country where I can't freely carry and don't have the need for the functionality of a knife so I CANNOT design a knife for any intended functionality. Hence I asked what my design seems like it will be bad at. So far, no one has addressed this specifically. Of course the intention is to make a good knife else I could make G10/ D2 variants to retail at $30 but without specific feedback, I cannot improve. This reminds of me how you need experience to get a job and also a job to gain experience. It's a catch 22.

I 3D printed the design, ergonomically, it's good, there are a lot of things like action and related to it opening and closing etc that have been taken care of at design or will be controlled during production. Here's it beside my sheepsfoot a Spydie Tenacious and a Steel Will Cutjack.

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So I'd love if I get some constructive criticism instead. What makes this design gas station or non functional or outright useless to some?

First and foremost, I don't find the design to be "gas station" at all. When I think of gas station knives, I think of overly garishly designed, and cheaply made. Cheap Mtechs come to mind.

From a basic design standpoint, I really have no issues with the drop-point version. It has a lot of belly to it, which I'm not a fan of, but that's more of a personal preference, and not a design flaw. Like I said in my first post, it would probably make a great skinner.

Also, the hump-shaped handle is a bit of a turn-off for me. It looks fine, but I prefer a smoother, continuous sweeping arc. I've never found a hump-handled knife that sits correctly in my palm without creating a pressure point. But agin, this is really just a personal preference.

Seeing it in prototype form, I will say, I like the thumb ramp on the spine. In your pic, it looks sized appropriately to really get your thumb locked into it.

My main sticking point is still the tanto blade itself.
First, it looks out of proportion visually. I'm estimating your blade to be about 3.25", but visually it appears much stubbier. When open, it doesn't appear to have any visual balance.

Aesthetics aside... assuming that same 3.25" blade length, this puts your primary edge at only around 2.25".... pretty short for a knife this size. It doesn't leave a lot of edge for longer draw cuts, skinning type motions, or slicing cuts. It seems like your would have to saw back and forth with this blade to do even medium length cuts.

This also puts your front edge around 1" and at a 45° angle. This would be great for chiseling, scraping, or possibly scoring material, if that was the knifes primary focus. But it doesn't put enough point on it to be much of a piercing type of tip - something tantos usually do well at.

Like I said in my previous post, as a general purpose, Jack-of-all-trades knife, it seems like it would be awkward to use as an EDC, since it's not doesn't appear very versatile. At the same time, it doesn't appear to be designed with any singular purpose, other than to meet a specific aesthetic. The blade shape just seems kinda lost.



Some changes I would consider to make it more versatile:
1 (red) - adjust the angle of the harpoon a bit, moving the tip down further. This would allow you to keep the front edge at a very chisel like angle, while adding a bit more length to the primary edge
2 (green) - lower the top edge a good bit. This would allow more angle on the front edge, creating more of a piercing point, while still adding some length to the primary edge
3 (blue) - roll the angle between the two cutting edges into a bit more of a 'traditional' tanto shape. This would still give you the front chisel to some degree, but allow material being cut to transition easier from one edge to the other, and extend the length of the primary cutting edge.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Quiet]

Damneddesigns My on topic assessment of this knife is this. I don't really like it. Also, I don't buy Chinese knives. And none of those are slams against your knife, those are entirely subjective end-points of my own opinion. That said, I have seen a ton of knives for sale (that sell!) that have more egregious design flaws than this design of yours does. Also, I think you're designing a knife that's going to be a drop in the bucket of a huge, entirely saturated market of S25vn/Ti scale flippers. BUT. I think it's perfectly fine. If nothing else, the fact that WE sells so many oddball crackpot non-optimized designs should tell you that you'll probably be ok.

 

[marcinek]

You've gotten a lot of constructive criticism, but I'd say what you mostly need to do is back up a few steps to get your founding premise sorted out. Then you can make adjustments to the design to reconfigure it for that premise. Be like this bee. It's an iterative process that starts with the problem you're trying to solve and works from there.

Once again, excellent point. If the knife is supposed to be, say, an overbuilt penetrator, then the characteristics of an overbuilt penetrator need to be incorporated into its design.

Its like you have designed a building with no doors or windows.

"Are people supposed to go inside?"
"Who cares, its a good design because it doesn't fall down."
"Have you been in a building before?"
"Not really."
"People usually go inside them."
"I can't be expected to design to a function."

If you cannot get out there are use a bunch of knives in a bunch of ways....at the very least think about what you think this knife would be good at. Then think of the design features it has that you think would make it good at that.

It's a start.

 

[unwisefool]

This line sums it up perfectly. An envelope will easily give you a paper-cut, but you wouldn't rely on it as a tool. Same with a broken piece of glass. Just because you can make something sharp, doesn't automatically make it a useful cutting tool. Take a look at what prehistoric man did to shape materials into cutting tools, even back then you can see there was some thought into how they broke, chipped, and polished flint, obsidian, and other stones to create shapes that were useful as knives, axes, spears, etc.

As a species, we found out pretty early on that it was better to design our tools with a purpose in mind.




First and foremost, I don't find the design to be "gas station" at all. When I think of gas station knives, I think of overly garishly designed, and cheaply made. Cheap Mtechs come to mind.

From a basic design standpoint, I really have no issues with the drop-point version. It has a lot of belly to it, which I'm not a fan of, but that's more of a personal preference, and not a design flaw. Like I said in my first post, it would probably make a great skinner.

Also, the hump-shaped handle is a bit of a turn-off for me. It looks fine, but I prefer a smoother, continuous sweeping arc. I've never found a hump-handled knife that sits correctly in my palm without creating a pressure point. But agin, this is really just a personal preference.

Seeing it in prototype form, I will say, I like the thumb ramp on the spine. In your pic, it looks sized appropriately to really get your thumb locked into it.

My main sticking point is still the tanto blade itself.
First, it looks out of proportion visually. I'm estimating your blade to be about 3.25", but visually it appears much stubbier. When open, it doesn't appear to have any visual balance.

Aesthetics aside... assuming that same 3.25" blade length, this puts your primary edge at only around 2.25".... pretty short for a knife this size. It doesn't leave a lot of edge for longer draw cuts, skinning type motions, or slicing cuts. It seems like your would have to saw back and forth with this blade to do even medium length cuts.

This also puts your front edge around 1" and at a 45° angle. This would be great for chiseling, scraping, or possibly scoring material, if that was the knifes primary focus. But it doesn't put enough point on it to be much of a piercing type of tip - something tantos usually do well at.

Like I said in my previous post, as a general purpose, Jack-of-all-trades knife, it seems like it would be awkward to use as an EDC, since it's not doesn't appear very versatile. At the same time, it doesn't appear to be designed with any singular purpose, other than to meet a specific aesthetic. The blade shape just seems kinda lost.



Some changes I would consider to make it more versatile:
1 (red) - adjust the angle of the harpoon a bit, moving the tip down further. This would allow you to keep the front edge at a very chisel like angle, while adding a bit more length to the primary edge
2 (green) - lower the top edge a good bit. This would allow more angle on the front edge, creating more of a piercing point, while still adding some length to the primary edge
3 (blue) - roll the angle between the two cutting edges into a bit more of a 'traditional' tanto shape. This would still give you the front chisel to some degree, but allow material being cut to transition easier from one edge to the other, and extend the length of the primary cutting edge.

Just my thoughts.

Look at this guy copying my colored line idea. Tsk tsk

 

[jaseman]

Look at this guy copying my colored line idea. Tsk tsk

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.....

 

[Mecha]

My first knife with M390 retails for 225 for the ti and 175 for a liner lock variant with $50 off retail while on pre order. The aim with China is to offer the best value possible and make product with the best possible material available to the average consumer. Those that have the money to spend on USA made knives or don’t like China made for a variety of reasons aren’t my target market but their feedback on design is equally important. I appreciate the skill and effort it takes to make a product as much as the next person and am not trying to compete with bladesmiths or actual knife makers. It’s aimed to be a mid tech production knife with full transparency on where and who it’s produced by.

So far, 2 of my designs have been prototyped and the first one went into production. Will be ready in a few weeks. My pen has undergone several revisions and prototypes (about 5) but I haven’t been satisfied so keep taking it back to the drawing board. Hopefully 6th times the charm

All I'mma say is you better scan some of those knife blades when you get them to make sure they're M390!

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

^ hey Quiet . Was wondering when you were gonna show up! Welcome.
I still gotta send you a PM soon!!

Back to the topic...I think the OP is getting some really good feedback here.

Its a basic design that will sell to some yes.
I guess if you are just looking to make $, then this is the perfect knife. I’m more interested/appreciative of makers who design because they love to make a hardworking knife designed for a purpose for themselves and others...and they end up making money off it!
Glad you popped in.
S&F

 

[jaseman]

My first knife with M390 retails for 225 for the ti and 175 for a liner lock variant with $50 off retail while on pre order. The aim with China is to offer the best value possible and make product with the best possible material available to the average consumer. Those that have the money to spend on USA made knives or don’t like China made for a variety of reasons aren’t my target market but their feedback on design is equally important. I appreciate the skill and effort it takes to make a product as much as the next person and am not trying to compete with bladesmiths or actual knife makers. It’s aimed to be a mid tech production knife with full transparency on where and who it’s produced by.

So far, 2 of my designs have been prototyped and the first one went into production. Will be ready in a few weeks. My pen has undergone several revisions and prototypes (about 5) but I haven’t been satisfied so keep taking it back to the drawing board. Hopefully 6th times the charm

OK, so this got me thinking a little bit.....

Who is your target audience?
You say you're looking to China because you want to offer the best possible product/material/price to the average consumer... but at your price range, you're not really at the "average consumer" when it comes to pocket knives. The average consumer doesn't shop knives above $100. In my experience, the average consumer buys a knife at the local box store (Walmart, Home Depot, etc.) and doesn't know what a mid-tech is. To them, a $150 ZT is really high-end, and beyond what they're willing to spend.

But this really has me thinking:
"I appreciate the skill and effort it takes to make a product as much as the next person and am not trying to compete with bladesmiths or actual knife makers. It’s aimed to be a mid tech production knife with full transparency on where and who it’s produced by."
So are you just trying to capitalize on a current 'trend' of people collecting knives? Your website is down at the moment, so I can't see what else you're designing and selling. But it sounds like you ARE competing with blade smiths and actual knife designers if you're shooting for a mid-tech product.

I see a lot of this floating around these days. People/companies looking to sell a product in a 'niche' market, with no real experience in that market as a whole. Expensive watches made of wood, or with exotic looking movements. Vintage looking motorcycle boots and jackets. Designer sunglasses. All items sold to a luxury market by people who often (but not always) have little to know background or passion for the products they're designing and selling. The wood watches use cheap Chinese movements. Crash protection isn't built into the motorcycle jackets. And the optics on the sunglasses are little better than the old 'BlueBlockers' sold on TV.

Reminds me a lot of the stuff you see on the Touch-of-Modern website. Some is legit, and produced by people who are truly authentic and passionate about what they do, while others are just selling to an audience willing to pay luxury prices for a trendy item.

So who is your audience then? And what type of knife maker do you want to be? Your statement of "as long as it's sharp, it should cut things" tells me the type of customer I think you're aiming for....

Neither is wrong, and I wish you well either way. But If you want customers who really car about knives (like the ones on this forum), take a lot of what people here have said, and design your knife as a tool first, and let the aesthetic follow. If you just want to sell to the trendy-luxury market, then do what you feel best.

I'm not trying to be harsh, but it comes off this way the more I re-read this thread...

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

^ @ jaseman

This is exactly what i wanted to post, but i felt like it would be a waste of time, because i think OP has already wrote off my opinions.
Its a design meant to make money. Thats it. “How can i cash in on the current trend?”
Ill design a knife, and get it made in China for cheap to maximize profits.”
Thats my assumption and i could be wrong.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

It's worth noting that something I consider a rampant problem in the industry as a whole right now is gimmicky and under-informed designs that were designed to sell rather than designed to use. Because of the fact that most knife users are not enthusiasts at the level we are, and even here many of us are not truly understanding of what makes good functional design, it means that the baseline measure by which the majority of knife users judge performance is a very low bar. The folks who take a short-term view with an emphasis on the bottom line love that bar being so low. But long-term user satisfaction is based in the post-purchase experience, and performance is all in how you define it.

A lot of knife designs these days are designed to be aesthetically appealing first and foremost with status-symbol materials and manufacturing tolerances to maximize the endorphin rush the purchaser gets when they hit that "order" button and unbox it. But after that...you're on your own, buddy! If you pore over my posts over the past decade you'll see that this has been a consistent criticism I've leveled at the industry. By industry standards, the design is fine as it is. The question is whether or not you, as a maker, with your image attached to the goods you produce, wishes to design something that sells, or if you want to design something that provides the most functional enhancement to the lives of your customers as possible.

It comes down to a question of if you're service-driven or profit-driven. Both are valid strategies but they greatly affect your goals as a designer and marketer and will reflect in your design work. So I'd just suggest defining your goals clearly and deciding on guiding design principles that you can employ both in this design and any future projects so you have a clear lens to view the work through.

If you get all that defined and aligned, the problems you're trying to solve and the market you're trying to serve will essentially design the product for you and you're mostly acting as a conduit for it.

 

[marcinek]

^ @ jaseman

This is exactly what i wanted to post, but i felt like it would be a waste of time, because i think OP has already wrote off my opinions.
Its a design meant to make money. Thats it. “How can i cash in on the current trend?”
Ill design a knife, and get it made in China for cheap to maximize profits.”
Thats my assumption and i could be wrong.

I doubt you are wrong. Remember...

W.R.T application, i didn't have anything specific in mind. Next step is to make protos and get feedback before deciding to take it to production but I might take it straight to production to sell at Blade.

Like I said earlier...trivializes what knife designers do.

 

[Quiet]

I doubt you are wrong. Remember...



Like I said earlier...trivializes what knife designers do.

Except it doesn't do that at all. Unless you're telling me that knife designers should be concerned that a guy who had came up with some CAD drawings of something he thought looked cool, and might actually sell is somehow damaging to knife designers working today.

That mindset is more insulting to other knife designers than anything else. Also, your entire viewpoint in this thread comes off as major gatekeeping, which frankly is trash. Why aren't you in the knife makers' section here weighing in on every design those guys are making?

Oh, right, they'd tell you to get bent. Right.

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

I agree you didn't attack me...
Either way, I apologize and would like to move on if you don't mind. I didn't come here to start beef with you or anyone else for that matter.

I accept your apology. i was not trying to offend. We really are a good bunch of folks who take knives seriously. So when asked for our opinions...we will be honest.
There are many bladesmiths, knifemakers, and others who are deep into this industry here. As well as straight up collectors.
In my opinion this is one of the best places to get info and help. Cause when the “hype” crashes, you will probably still be in business if you have designed purpose driven knives.

Most knife makers didnt start off making two protos and having everyone “love” them. They worked hard at it, because they love knives. Im sure they got some feedback they didnt agree with, but its all in how you handle that feedback.

 

[Quiet]

What about you, 42Blades? Plenty of knife makers in the various sections that could probably use a course from you two expert masters in what they should really be doing, right?

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

Except it doesn't do that at all. Unless you're telling me that knife designers should be concerned that a guy who had came up with some CAD drawings of something he thought looked cool, and might actually sell is somehow damaging to knife designers working today.

That mindset is more insulting to other knife designers than anything else. Also, your entire viewpoint in this thread comes off as major gatekeeping, which frankly is trash. Why aren't you in the knife makers' section here weighing in on every design those guys are making?

Oh, right, they'd tell you to get bent. Right.

And there it is! I love when you show up!

 

[Quiet]

And there it is! I love when you show up!

Right? I just do not understand some of the garbage gatekeeping that goes on in here. Instead, it's "Let's hold the new guy to standards in a condescending way that we damn sure are not holding a bunch of longtime makers to."

Oh, right, because see, those guys made what they wanted to make and people are snapping them up. They didn't try to meet some silly specific criteria. I mean, do you think the Grimsmo guys had a huge task-specific point to their design? LOL Come on, now.