Fit and Finish - A Long Story
- Thread starter Ernest Emerson
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Sigh... It gets very old and boring reading ALL these comments in ALL these threads about this "issue". Emerson's are tools and meant to be used. They are not objects that sit around and collect dust, only to be admired about their fit and finish... The more I type, the more frustrated I get. I am beating a dead horse...
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I have my facts straight. Maybe I don't have all the facts.
Not believing someone is not the same as accusing them. I don't believe in all of the teachings of Islam
but that doesn't mean they're not true.
Thankyou for making cool knives but I still don't believe some of your stories.
First off , it is damn refreshing to see the owner of a very successful company come and chit-chat with some of his customers and even those who are not his customers. I enjoy reading what Mr. Emerson writes.
I appreciate him being open and honest especially when it comes to a pretty important and sometimes embarrassing issue regarding the production knife industry.
What Mongo said.
I only own three Emerson knives at the moment. A CQC7 , a Mini CQC7 and an old SARK. Only the SARK shows rough cut out marks on the titanium liner but this in no ways detracts from the usefulness of the tool. All of them are perfectly centered and if they were not I am sure I could fix that myself.
I can also sympathize with those of you who prefer a better fit and finish on their knives, I appreciate it as well but I went into buying Emerson's knowing full well what to expect and so far I have not been let down.
If a perfect fit and finish is what you are looking for then there are plenty of brands that cater to that , my other favorite knife company Kershaw for example has spotless F&F in my book , I know that , they know that.
Mr. Emerson knows what he is selling and to my knowledge he has never said his tools were spotless beauties worthy of a glass case for your buddies to 'ohh and ahh' over. They are made to work hard.
Good thread.
Tostig
I appreciate him being open and honest especially when it comes to a pretty important and sometimes embarrassing issue regarding the production knife industry.
What Mongo said.
I only own three Emerson knives at the moment. A CQC7 , a Mini CQC7 and an old SARK. Only the SARK shows rough cut out marks on the titanium liner but this in no ways detracts from the usefulness of the tool. All of them are perfectly centered and if they were not I am sure I could fix that myself.
I can also sympathize with those of you who prefer a better fit and finish on their knives, I appreciate it as well but I went into buying Emerson's knowing full well what to expect and so far I have not been let down.
If a perfect fit and finish is what you are looking for then there are plenty of brands that cater to that , my other favorite knife company Kershaw for example has spotless F&F in my book , I know that , they know that.
Mr. Emerson knows what he is selling and to my knowledge he has never said his tools were spotless beauties worthy of a glass case for your buddies to 'ohh and ahh' over. They are made to work hard.
Good thread.
Tostig
Last week I read an article that there was a Belgian Malinois Shepherd present when they took out Bin Laden,
I find that way cooler than the pocket knives they carried. Hope not everyone is going to buy a similar dog now because of that.
I agree with Wunderbar on all these stories.
It might be that a lot of special forces carry Emerson knives, I really don't know, but I am sure other knives are used as well.
Also I dont think these missions depended on folding knives but more on the use of heavy firepower....
On top of that I don't think these spec ops guys are getting paid that well so they can afford to mess with knives in the 400$ region,
maybe with the exception of some Special Ops knifenuts like us!
So looking at the 200$ "tactical" knives Emerson is a good choice in my opinion, if you want a big and tough blade.
Obviously in the 350-400$> range there are many other good and tough tactical knife choices available with some more high end steels than 154cm, no question.
I think 154c is ofcourse easier to sharpen in the field than some of these newer supersteels , unless you want to carry some sharpening gear.
Now I am off playing with my Belgian Malinois instead of some cold steel and imagine her ripping OBL's nuts off Ouch!!
I find that way cooler than the pocket knives they carried. Hope not everyone is going to buy a similar dog now because of that.
I agree with Wunderbar on all these stories.
It might be that a lot of special forces carry Emerson knives, I really don't know, but I am sure other knives are used as well.
Also I dont think these missions depended on folding knives but more on the use of heavy firepower....
On top of that I don't think these spec ops guys are getting paid that well so they can afford to mess with knives in the 400$ region,
maybe with the exception of some Special Ops knifenuts like us!
So looking at the 200$ "tactical" knives Emerson is a good choice in my opinion, if you want a big and tough blade.
Obviously in the 350-400$> range there are many other good and tough tactical knife choices available with some more high end steels than 154cm, no question.
I think 154c is ofcourse easier to sharpen in the field than some of these newer supersteels , unless you want to carry some sharpening gear.
Now I am off playing with my Belgian Malinois instead of some cold steel and imagine her ripping OBL's nuts off
Ouch!!
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ssblood
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The 154CM complaint is played out. Try sharpening S90V or CTS-20CP in the field.
Emerson knives were the first nice knife I ever held. A Benchmade 7 at that. My uncle sold it to another fire fighter who still uses it. They are popular in the military with guys who care. A lot of guys don't care about knives and just carry what is issued. I compare this with the Strider debate, both companies make damn fine gear and both have been and will continue to be issued to troops. End of story.
Real men, in real dangerous places carry Emerson knives. Along with CRK, Spyderco, etc. Chances are there were Emersons, Striders, Spydercos, and Gerber multi-tools among others present when Bin Laden and the rest of them were finally brought to justice.
If you don't like the man why even bother questioning him or trying to call him out on something. Personally, he will be the first person I want to meet if god willing, I make it to Blade next year.
Emerson knives were the first nice knife I ever held. A Benchmade 7 at that. My uncle sold it to another fire fighter who still uses it. They are popular in the military with guys who care. A lot of guys don't care about knives and just carry what is issued. I compare this with the Strider debate, both companies make damn fine gear and both have been and will continue to be issued to troops. End of story.
Real men, in real dangerous places carry Emerson knives. Along with CRK, Spyderco, etc. Chances are there were Emersons, Striders, Spydercos, and Gerber multi-tools among others present when Bin Laden and the rest of them were finally brought to justice.
If you don't like the man why even bother questioning him or trying to call him out on something. Personally, he will be the first person I want to meet if god willing, I make it to Blade next year.
There are quite a few superior alternative alloys that are not necessarily super steels. There's the powder version of 154CM (CPM154 or its close relative, RWL34), Elmax, and so on.
But it takes a significant amount of use to dull a super steel to begin with. Instead of letting it get dull, you have the option of stropping it or doing light maintenance intermittently.
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I dont mind 154CM but I DO mind paying $200 for it. And if your S90V or CTS-20CP knife is sharp before you go into the field, chances are excellent that you wont have to sharpen it in the field at all and that it will still have an edge looooong after your 154CM blade has grown dull. So I'm afraid that argument simply doesnt hold water. The bottom line is that the cheaper the steel EKI uses, the bigger the profit margin.
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I have a major complaint... 3 in fact:
1) tens of thousands of knives a year is not enough ! I want to upgrade my collection !!
2) put more holes for the clip, I want to wave my knife in reverse grip !!!
3) bring back the Persian, and wave it !!!
Bes regards.
P.S. I like the fit and finish of your knives, the last satin finish is nice.
And for fancy things, your skull logo is fun and cool.
1) tens of thousands of knives a year is not enough ! I want to upgrade my collection !!
2) put more holes for the clip, I want to wave my knife in reverse grip !!!
3) bring back the Persian, and wave it !!!
Bes regards.
P.S. I like the fit and finish of your knives, the last satin finish is nice.
And for fancy things, your skull logo is fun and cool.
ssblood
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I dulled a CTS-20CP para2 in one cut on fiberglass insulation. 10 cuts and it was time to sharpen. This requires SiC or diamonds to do with any speed. 154CM might dull in five cuts, but it is quick to resharpen with just about anything.
Also, some soldiers that carry these knives might go weeks without being able to sit down inside somewhere, break out the SiC or the diamonds and spend 30 minutes sharpening a knife. If they are moving 16+ hours a day, 7 days a week this isn't going to happen. Some people are going to argue about this regardless of how insane it sounds. Super Steels would be great until they dull, then they better have a back up knife.
Also, some soldiers that carry these knives might go weeks without being able to sit down inside somewhere, break out the SiC or the diamonds and spend 30 minutes sharpening a knife. If they are moving 16+ hours a day, 7 days a week this isn't going to happen. Some people are going to argue about this regardless of how insane it sounds. Super Steels would be great until they dull, then they better have a back up knife.
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That would be fine if EKI were only making knives for soldiers but despite what EE says, I would wager that the vast majority of the knives he makes goes to a civilian market. I would also wager that the vast majority of soldiers carry multitools and fixed blades and not EKI folders. And if they carry a folder, its some cheapie they got at the PX. Knives costing what EKI knives cost are typically bought by enthusiasts, ie, knife nuts. The kind of people you find here on BF. And we are generally more than happy to devote the time and effort it takes to keep our blades sharp.
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Dear Buffalo Hump,
We've supplied a lot of knives to South Africa over the years, both to hunters, guides and soldiers. I've never once had, not one single comment back that the 154cm steel underperformed in any regard.
As to your comments about certain steels staying sharp in the field. All I can say is, what field are you describing? I have dulled every knife made from every super steel that exists just as quickly as each other in hard use environments. Do you think I live in a vacuum? I live , breathe, eat, and sleep knives. I build knives. I have a Knife Company. I know just a little of what I speak. I get the chance to test any and every knife I want and every new steel that comes out. I don't even have to pay for it. I live on a Ranch and I'm constantly in the field somewhere. My choice in steel has nothing to do with the price of steels. They are all about the same in the quantities that we purchase. You should also note that I do not heat-treat the 154cm to the Rockwell hardness that other companies do. They go to RC 61-62 and I only go to RC 57-59. That also has nothing to do with price as the heat treating costs are the same. If for example, I used a steel that could be heated to a RC 75 (theoretically) I would still only take it to 57 to 59 Rockwell, so what would that super steel do for you?
Here's a quote I've used for years when talking about all the "super steels" that come and go year after year. "A broken knife is no knife. A dull knife is still a knife." The hard users and all the military always get the point.
Hell, one of the most battle proven and tested knives of all time is the K-Bar and it's in the low 50's on the Rockwell scale and definitely not a "super steel".
Like I've said before and how I've lived my entire life, it's about performance, and performance only. Cutting open a cardboard box and cutting someone out of a downed helo are two quite different degrees of use. My knives have done that and will undoubtedly do it again. I'm Ok with the 154cm steel that does that task well. Some get that. Some never will.
As to your recent post about our knives and the military and about the soldiers carrying "cheap" knives I could only think, "What planet is this guy from?" Then I realized the obvious - you've just never been in the military. Got it.
My Best Regards,
Ernest R. Emerson
We've supplied a lot of knives to South Africa over the years, both to hunters, guides and soldiers. I've never once had, not one single comment back that the 154cm steel underperformed in any regard.
As to your comments about certain steels staying sharp in the field. All I can say is, what field are you describing? I have dulled every knife made from every super steel that exists just as quickly as each other in hard use environments. Do you think I live in a vacuum? I live , breathe, eat, and sleep knives. I build knives. I have a Knife Company. I know just a little of what I speak. I get the chance to test any and every knife I want and every new steel that comes out. I don't even have to pay for it. I live on a Ranch and I'm constantly in the field somewhere. My choice in steel has nothing to do with the price of steels. They are all about the same in the quantities that we purchase. You should also note that I do not heat-treat the 154cm to the Rockwell hardness that other companies do. They go to RC 61-62 and I only go to RC 57-59. That also has nothing to do with price as the heat treating costs are the same. If for example, I used a steel that could be heated to a RC 75 (theoretically) I would still only take it to 57 to 59 Rockwell, so what would that super steel do for you?
Here's a quote I've used for years when talking about all the "super steels" that come and go year after year. "A broken knife is no knife. A dull knife is still a knife." The hard users and all the military always get the point.
Hell, one of the most battle proven and tested knives of all time is the K-Bar and it's in the low 50's on the Rockwell scale and definitely not a "super steel".
Like I've said before and how I've lived my entire life, it's about performance, and performance only. Cutting open a cardboard box and cutting someone out of a downed helo are two quite different degrees of use. My knives have done that and will undoubtedly do it again. I'm Ok with the 154cm steel that does that task well. Some get that. Some never will.
As to your recent post about our knives and the military and about the soldiers carrying "cheap" knives I could only think, "What planet is this guy from?" Then I realized the obvious - you've just never been in the military. Got it.
My Best Regards,
Ernest R. Emerson
So, one must be millitary in order to know what knives are being used by our troops?
Nope...
Call me a hater, but (IMO) Emerson knives are overpriced and boring.
Other knife manufacturers take the initiative to upgrade their products...otherwise they get passed up...like Emerson has.
Nope...
Call me a hater, but (IMO) Emerson knives are overpriced and boring.
Other knife manufacturers take the initiative to upgrade their products...otherwise they get passed up...like Emerson has.
I don't know what you're smoking, but can I have some?
ssblood
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CQC-6
Emerson's folding chisel-ground "tantō" became the sixth model in his Viper series and, while a handful of prototypes were referred to as "Viper 6", the model was soon named the "CQC-6" (CQC refers to "close-quarters combat") and was chosen by the SEALs for use.
It should be noted that the CQC-6 was not an officially issued item, but rather one that was privately purchased by the troops in question.
In November 2001, Emerson made a one-of-a-kind CQC-6 and auctioned it at the New York Custom Knife Show for the benefit of children whose parents had been killed on 9/11/2001: 100% of the proceeds went to this charity. This knife featured polished hardware, hand-checkered micarta scales, and an engraved blade reading: "We shall strike a dagger deep into the heart of such evil".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Emerson
After a disastrous helicopter crash in 1999 resulting in the deaths of six Marines and one sailor, the US Navy performed an assessment of their equipment and decided among other things that they needed a new search and rescue knife.[8][27] The Ka-bar knives issued to the SBUs (Special Boat Units) had catastrophically failed to cut the Marines free from their webbing.[8]
The Navy went to Emerson, who designed and fabricated a working prototype within 24 hours.[8] They found that it met their needs, and the model was dubbed the "SARK" (Search and Rescue Knife).[27] The SARK is a folding knife with a wharncliffe-style blade and a blunt tip designed so a rescuer could cut trapped victims free without stabbing them. The knife features Emerson's Wave.[8]n Seeing another need in the police community, Emerson replaced the blunt end of the SARK with a pointed end and named it the "P-SARK", or Police Search And Rescue Knife. The Ontario, California Police Department consulted Emerson to produce written policy for the carry and deployment of the P-SARK knives in their department.[49] In 2005, the Navy changed the requirements on the SARK to incorporate a guthook on the back of the blade for use as a line-cutter.[50] Emerson made the change on this model which is only available to the US Navy and the model designation is the NSAR (Navy Search And Rescue) Knife.[50]
In 1999, NASA contracted Emerson to build a knife for use on Space Shuttle missions and the International Space Station.[51] Rather than design a new model from scratch, NASA chose an existing model which already met their specifications, with one additional design requirement.[51] The model is a folding version of the Specwar knife that Emerson had designed for Timberline with the addition of a guthook cut into the tantō point of the blade with which astronauts could open their freeze dried food packages. The knife is not available for purchase outside of NASA.
Some of you people just don't have a clue. 10 minutes in google will teach you alot.
So he has made knives for SEALs to buy with their own money. Has designed several knives for the Navy, and made knives for astronauts. Now if SEALs were buying his knives and having them made to their specification. I'd put my money on them being in the pockets of SF, Rangers, SAS, MARSOC, etc.
Insulting a man and calling him a liar when you have absolutely no clue is just sad. The fact that even bothers responding to such trash is beyond me, it just goes to show his character and belief in the product that he sells. Pay good attention to the part about his delivering a prototype in 24 hours...
Emerson's folding chisel-ground "tantō" became the sixth model in his Viper series and, while a handful of prototypes were referred to as "Viper 6", the model was soon named the "CQC-6" (CQC refers to "close-quarters combat") and was chosen by the SEALs for use.
It should be noted that the CQC-6 was not an officially issued item, but rather one that was privately purchased by the troops in question.
In November 2001, Emerson made a one-of-a-kind CQC-6 and auctioned it at the New York Custom Knife Show for the benefit of children whose parents had been killed on 9/11/2001: 100% of the proceeds went to this charity. This knife featured polished hardware, hand-checkered micarta scales, and an engraved blade reading: "We shall strike a dagger deep into the heart of such evil".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Emerson
After a disastrous helicopter crash in 1999 resulting in the deaths of six Marines and one sailor, the US Navy performed an assessment of their equipment and decided among other things that they needed a new search and rescue knife.[8][27] The Ka-bar knives issued to the SBUs (Special Boat Units) had catastrophically failed to cut the Marines free from their webbing.[8]
The Navy went to Emerson, who designed and fabricated a working prototype within 24 hours.[8] They found that it met their needs, and the model was dubbed the "SARK" (Search and Rescue Knife).[27] The SARK is a folding knife with a wharncliffe-style blade and a blunt tip designed so a rescuer could cut trapped victims free without stabbing them. The knife features Emerson's Wave.[8]n Seeing another need in the police community, Emerson replaced the blunt end of the SARK with a pointed end and named it the "P-SARK", or Police Search And Rescue Knife. The Ontario, California Police Department consulted Emerson to produce written policy for the carry and deployment of the P-SARK knives in their department.[49] In 2005, the Navy changed the requirements on the SARK to incorporate a guthook on the back of the blade for use as a line-cutter.[50] Emerson made the change on this model which is only available to the US Navy and the model designation is the NSAR (Navy Search And Rescue) Knife.[50]
In 1999, NASA contracted Emerson to build a knife for use on Space Shuttle missions and the International Space Station.[51] Rather than design a new model from scratch, NASA chose an existing model which already met their specifications, with one additional design requirement.[51] The model is a folding version of the Specwar knife that Emerson had designed for Timberline with the addition of a guthook cut into the tantō point of the blade with which astronauts could open their freeze dried food packages. The knife is not available for purchase outside of NASA.
Some of you people just don't have a clue. 10 minutes in google will teach you alot.
So he has made knives for SEALs to buy with their own money. Has designed several knives for the Navy, and made knives for astronauts. Now if SEALs were buying his knives and having them made to their specification. I'd put my money on them being in the pockets of SF, Rangers, SAS, MARSOC, etc.
Insulting a man and calling him a liar when you have absolutely no clue is just sad. The fact that even bothers responding to such trash is beyond me, it just goes to show his character and belief in the product that he sells. Pay good attention to the part about his delivering a prototype in 24 hours...
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Here is CATRA data showing the superiority of PM alloys over 154CM (which is listed as 14-4CrMo).
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What gets old and boring is this same thread that pops up every couple months. Mr. Emerson comes in "not apologizing" for the sloppy fit and finish of his product, talks about all the high speed operators he has in his corner, drops a few names and then proceedes to dismiss/belittle/insult anyone who doesn't pat him on the back for his crappy attitude.
No thank you.
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OK, so there are many with better edge retention than 154CM but you know there is always a trade off right? If there is a steel that is easier to sharpen but has better edge retention than 154CM, then I rest my case. EE is trying to say there isn't a steel that is fully above 152CM in ALL REGARDS.