Fit and Finish - A Long Story

To Mr. Emerson


Why not make some knives in supersteels? Just prize them up. They will easily sell as donuts in cop heaven. Then you will have more knifenuts buying your knives, and steel issue gone too.
 
Cutting open a cardboard box and cutting someone out of a downed helo are two quite different degrees of use. My knives have done that and will undoubtedly do it again.

A $35.00 Spyderco Tenacious or Ontario Rat 1 would be able to do the same as well.

Now, don't get me wrong here I really like your knives and have owned many of them. However it must to be taken into consideration that any knife from a reliable and established company would be able to cut a cardboard box and someone from a helicopter, not just solely Emerson knives as the way you are making it sound.

That being said I respect the pride you have towards your company and knives. That just shows that you really do care and have a lot of passion for your life's work. I will continue buying Emerson knives, because let's be frank here. They are awesome!
 
Last edited:
OK, so there are many with better edge retention than 154CM but you know there is always a trade off right? If there is a steel that is easier to sharpen but has better edge retention than 154CM, then I rest my case. EE is trying to say there isn't a steel that is fully above 152CM in ALL REGARDS.

Nonsense.
I have several knives in 154CM. I have one in M390, the alloy with the highest edge retention on that chart. I find it no harder to sharpen M390 than 154CM. If your sharpening equipment will handle 154CM, it should do just fine on M390.

The actual question is, "are the superior properties of PM steels really necessary for this usage." I carry lots of knives in 440C, AUS8, and 154CM. They work just fine. IMO the superior properties of PM steels are not necessary in order to have a good blade.

But the properties of S30V and other PM steels are indeed superior to those of melt alloys such as 154CM.
 
What gets old and boring is this same thread that pops up every couple months. Mr. Emerson comes in "not apologizing" for the sloppy fit and finish of his product, talks about all the high speed operators he has in his corner, drops a few names and then proceedes to dismiss/belittle/insult anyone who doesn't pat him on the back for his crappy attitude.

No thank you.



You do realize that this is the EMERSON forum, right?? If you don't like the knives or the man, why are you here??
 
Two words - edge geometry...everything else as it pertains to cutting is just so much freakin' foo...

[youtube]v-QQvpI5aZs[/youtube]
 
EE is trying to say there isn't a steel that is fully above 152CM in ALL REGARDS.

152CM or 154CM? Secondly, would you say that 52100 forged by Ed Fowler would perform the same, but in no way better, than 52100 forged by Ernie Emerson? You still think that steel is only what it is made of, and not what the knifemakers makes with it.
 
OK, so there are many with better edge retention than 154CM but you know there is always a trade off right? If there is a steel that is easier to sharpen but has better edge retention than 154CM, then I rest my case. EE is trying to say there isn't a steel that is fully above 152CM in ALL REGARDS.
CPM-154, N690, N360;). I also managed to chip the tips off of both my CQC Super 7s, can't really remember how though. My only real beef with Emerson knives is the chisel grind being on the "wrong" side and the fact that the lockbar wears out faster than my underwear. Other than that, I actually like the knives.
 
Mr Emerson, we all appreciate you taking the time to engage with us here and give your reasons for your choices in steel and other materials. I think you will agree forums like these offer companies like yours an excellent opportunity to engage with the knife-buying public. We are giving you an honest opinion here and you are free to do with it what you will. But an honest opinion it is. Just for the record, I have owned several of your knives over the years, including the Commander, CQC-13, CQC-11, SARK, SpecWar B, SOCFK and CQC-8. I dont think they are bad knives at all.

However, it has come to my attention that the prices of Emersons continue to creep up and yet the materials remain the same. All of the other major knife companies, and I include Spyderco, Benchmade and Zero Tolerance among these, have chosen to embrace newer, modern steels for their key models and offer them at prices on a par or even cheaper than Emerson knives. This is source concern for me as a knife consumer (one who spends considerable sums on knives each year).

When I consider what's out there, I am looking at value for my hard-earned money. When I compare two knives costing the same amount of money, I feel Emerson is somewhat lacking in the comparison. You may claim that 154CM will compete with any steel on the market but rigorous testing done here and elsewhere says different. And in my own experience I find it is not the equal of other steels. Even 154CM itself has evolved into the superior version made by Crucible called CPM-154. This is the nature of the industry. Onward and upward!

So if I have $200 to spend and can find a knife that offers a top end steel then you bet they will get my money. There are other factors that come into play, but this is the major one - FOR ME.

As to my own military experience, its not really relevant here. The statement I made about what 'most' soldiers carry in theatre was based on information I have gathered over the years directly from soldiers (from all over the world) and from a variety of other sources, including this very forum.

I personally chose not to serve because at the time when I was eligible for military service, my country was engaged in an unjust war with its own people. It wasn't a war in defence of freedom, it was a war that had the opposite goal - to oppress people who desired to be free. It was nothing like the war your country is fighting now, a war I wholeheartedly support by the way. Some wars are just, others not.

Dear Buffalo Hump,

We've supplied a lot of knives to South Africa over the years, both to hunters, guides and soldiers. I've never once had, not one single comment back that the 154cm steel underperformed in any regard.

As to your comments about certain steels staying sharp in the field. All I can say is, what field are you describing? I have dulled every knife made from every super steel that exists just as quickly as each other in hard use environments. Do you think I live in a vacuum? I live , breathe, eat, and sleep knives. I build knives. I have a Knife Company. I know just a little of what I speak. I get the chance to test any and every knife I want and every new steel that comes out. I don't even have to pay for it. I live on a Ranch and I'm constantly in the field somewhere. My choice in steel has nothing to do with the price of steels. They are all about the same in the quantities that we purchase. You should also note that I do not heat-treat the 154cm to the Rockwell hardness that other companies do. They go to RC 61-62 and I only go to RC 57-59. That also has nothing to do with price as the heat treating costs are the same. If for example, I used a steel that could be heated to a RC 75 (theoretically) I would still only take it to 57 to 59 Rockwell, so what would that super steel do for you?

Here's a quote I've used for years when talking about all the "super steels" that come and go year after year. "A broken knife is no knife. A dull knife is still a knife." The hard users and all the military always get the point.

Hell, one of the most battle proven and tested knives of all time is the K-Bar and it's in the low 50's on the Rockwell scale and definitely not a "super steel".

Like I've said before and how I've lived my entire life, it's about performance, and performance only. Cutting open a cardboard box and cutting someone out of a downed helo are two quite different degrees of use. My knives have done that and will undoubtedly do it again. I'm Ok with the 154cm steel that does that task well. Some get that. Some never will.

As to your recent post about our knives and the military and about the soldiers carrying "cheap" knives I could only think, "What planet is this guy from?" Then I realized the obvious - you've just never been in the military. Got it.


My Best Regards,

Ernest R. Emerson
 
However, it has come to my attention that the prices of Emersons continue to creep up and yet the materials remain the same. All of the other major knife companies, and I include Spyderco, Benchmade and Zero Tolerance among these, have chosen to embrace newer, modern steels for their key models and offer them at prices on a par or even cheaper than Emerson knives. This is source concern for me as a knife consumer (one who spends considerable sums on knives each year).

When I consider what's out there, I am looking at value for my hard-earned money. When I compare two knives costing the same amount of money, I feel Emerson is somewhat lacking in the comparison. You may claim that 154CM will compete with any steel on the market but rigorous testing done here and elsewhere says different. And in my own experience I find it is not the equal of other steels. Even 154CM itself has evolved into the superior version made by Crucible called CPM-154. This is the nature of the industry. Onward and upward!

So if I have $200 to spend and can find a knife that offers a top end steel then you bet they will get my money. There are other factors that come into play, but this is the major one - FOR ME.

I agree, all the Emerson knives I have bought had to be from the second hand market because I just can't get myself to spend so much for a liner lock when there are many other options out there that use titanium frame locks and other steels for the around the same price. Not saying 154cm is bad, I like 154cm but I like S30V and other newer steels better.

Mr. Emerson, I could almost guarantee that if you released more production knives similar to the HD-7 and Comrade folder with titanium frame locks you would be selling them like crazy. It would be really awesome to see more production ti frame locks coming from your company. Hell, I sure as hell would be buying them, but only if they were priced reasonably. For example if you priced the CQC-12 the same as the Spyderco titanium Military I would buy the CQC-12 in a heart beat a million times over the Spyderco, the same goes for the HD-7, and I am positive many other people would to.
 
I wonder if 10 years from now when steel technology has improved even more then it is now will EKI still be using 154cm.
I dont doubt for one minute that 154cm is not up to the task but I believe evolving as a company to set your standards
higher is a necessary step to compete in the market. I think EKI has done a great job with their marketing strategy of
branding their knife hard use military knife but theres always room to improve.
 
Dear Buffalo Hump,

As to your recent post about our knives and the military and about the soldiers carrying "cheap" knives I could only think, "What planet is this guy from?" Then I realized the obvious - you've just never been in the military. Got it.

My Best Regards,

Ernest R. Emerson

Ernest R. Emerson:

Have you ever been in the military? Given your obsession with providing autobiographical details, including your tireless/tiresome references to personal associations with elite military units, I'd expect to have heard you tell stories about your own enlistment and valor over and over again by now. But perhaps you're just being modest.

Cheers,
Isaeus
 
In my opinion, Emerson has the best designed folders in the 3-4 inch size range. -By a long shot actually. And to say these knives are boring is pretty damn rediculous.

In my opinion, Emerson knives are fine with regards to fit and finish. Quit whining and buy something else if you're worried about it.

In my opinion, 154cm is a decent steel, and perfectly adequate. If you want a steel you precieve as better, quit whining and buy something else.

The reason I don't own an Emerson is because liner-locks are garbage for these types of knives. I don't think there's anything anyone can say to change my mind on that. I can't understand why the entire line of EKI knives hasn't been switched over to frame-locks, perhaps with the exception of one or two entry level models.
The CQC-12 is the single finest folding knife I've ever had the pleasure of owning. It's unfortunate that there aren't more of them around and that the price isn't lower.
Until I can find an Emerson knife without a liner-lock and at a price my broke ass can afford to own, I'm gonna quit whining and carry something else.
 
"The Ka-bar knives issued to the SBUs (Special Boat Units) had catastrophically failed to cut the Marines free from their webbing."

"Under those chaotic conditions and the stress of that environment the knives literally broke apart in their hands as they valiantly tried to cut the trapped Marines loose from their rigging.Those knives, from a company I shall not name, were deemed a contributing factor in the deaths of these Marines."

Multiple Ka-Bars fell apart cutting webbing?
 
Like I've said before and how I've lived my entire life, it's about performance, and performance only. Cutting open a cardboard box and cutting someone out of a downed helo are two quite different degrees of use. My knives have done that and will undoubtedly do it again. I'm Ok with the 154cm steel that does that task well. Some get that. Some never will.
What does "cutting someone out of a downed helo" entail? Does it include prying open the doors? Because I can think of another tool more suited to the job(like say, a prybar). If it's referring to cutting someone out of a harness, I would think that any PoS steel sharpened on both sides to meet at a point would be capable of it.

But any complaints I have about steel choice would be why you don't even try some carbon steels, as it's common knowledge that stainless steels never quite reach the same level of toughness as carbon steels.

As to your recent post about our knives and the military and about the soldiers carrying "cheap" knives I could only think, "What planet is this guy from?" Then I realized the obvious - you've just never been in the military. Got it.
Didn't you yourself say that Ka-Bar knives were the most "battle proven"?
Hell, one of the most battle proven and tested knives of all time is the K-Bar and it's in the low 50's on the Rockwell scale and definitely not a "super steel".
I assume that, in order to be battle proven, it would have to have been in battle, and thus heavily used. It's not a complicated idea to want to have a cheap, sturdy, and easily replaceable tool if you expect to have to use it "hard" and possibly break it.

My coworker is in the army and the knife he gave me to sharpen was a beat up automatic partially serrated Benchmade that looks like someone threw it in the dryer with 30 lbs of gravel and set it on "extra spin". He gave me a bit of a blank stare when I asked if he considered a Strider or Emerson. I assume the high price tag meant his eyes glanced right over them without taking in the name.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that Emerson isn't used in the military at all, but implying that it is the ONLY one used or the most prevalent is something I wouldn't let escape my mouth without hard facts and numbers to back it up. I understand that the military are less "enthusiastic" about knives than most of us here. And I would bet one of my knives that a large number of them probably can't even properly sharpen their own knives on anything outside of a V pull through sharpener. Thus I can't imagine why they'd choose a $200+ Emerson knife over a $50-ish Ka-Bar(because non-knife people aren't as eager to dish out that much on a knife).

And is being in the military the only valid prerequisite to making a comment on your knives? I would bet that the majority of your customers are outside the military. The mall ninja in me wants a knife to cut down all my enemies with. The cynic that is me wants to say that I normally only use my knives for mundane cutting tasks(rope, cardboard, food, wood).
 
I like the fact that Spyderco has its own forum and Sal keeps in touch with his customers and personally answers question and listens to their needs and wants.

I hope Mr Emerson will eventually pickup on that too.

If customers have such a big demand for high(er) end steel framelock Emerson knives for example, a forum like this is the perfect way to communicate to them.

I truly like the pride he takes about the users of his knives and his own special way of thinking about things, and everyone needs to have his own company strategy.

But maybe sometimes its also good to listen to what some of the other Emerson knife buyers have to say and lookout for them as well.
Who really knows who the hardcore Emerson users or buyers are in general is it the Military or the Mall Ninja's, does it matter? In my opinion not really as long as the knives live up to their expectations for the hard earned cash you pay for them. Value for money that counts, and from what I read here the competition seems to be getting ahead of EKI.

Lets make a S35VN or Elmax, framelock Emerson at 260-280 USD like the upcoming Zero Tolerance 560 and see what happens, maybe even the Military is going to want them! Ernest show us what you got we all know you can do it ! Who cares maybe even a nice Emerson collaboration knife....dreams...dreams...
 
Last edited:
In my opinion, Emerson has the best designed folders in the 3-4 inch size range. -By a long shot actually. And to say these knives are boring is pretty damn rediculous.

In my opinion, Emerson knives are fine with regards to fit and finish. Quit whining and buy something else if you're worried about it.

In my opinion, 154cm is a decent steel, and perfectly adequate. If you want a steel you precieve as better, quit whining and buy something else.

The reason I don't own an Emerson is because liner-locks are garbage for these types of knives. I don't think there's anything anyone can say to change my mind on that. I can't understand why the entire line of EKI knives hasn't been switched over to frame-locks, perhaps with the exception of one or two entry level models.
The CQC-12 is the single finest folding knife I've ever had the pleasure of owning. It's unfortunate that there aren't more of them around and that the price isn't lower.
Until I can find an Emerson knife without a liner-lock and at a price my broke ass can afford to own, I'm gonna quit whining and carry something else.

Why is your opinion the only one that needs to be heard? Nothing wrong with liner locks, if there was something, a flaw intrinsic to the design, then they wouldn't be produced by so many companies as it would be considered a liability on some level. Some are better than others obviously, but painting something with such a broad brush indicates gross misinformation. A frame lock isn't much safer either, the principle is the same and the lock can fail too.
 
A frame lock isn't much safer either, the principle is the same and the lock can fail too.

Yes, ANY lock can fail but a liner lock is more prone to failure before a frame lock due to the fact that with a frame lock your grip on the knife provides an extra security measure by keeping the lockbar from moving back. Also, the fact that frame locks are generally thicker than the liner in liner locks plays an important roll as well.

In heavy cutting tasks a liner lock has more potential energy to spring back and fail due to the fact that the liner is thinner and there is no extra force to keep the liner from moving. In a frame lock the potential energy is always there but your grasp on the knife is inflicting extra force on the lockbar, thus keeping it from moving backwards.

Yes, the principal is the same but the law of physics proves a frame lock to be safer and much more reliable.


But maybe sometimes its also good to listen to what some of the other Emerson knife buyers have to say and lookout for them as well.
Who really knows who the hardcore Emerson users or buyers are in general is it the Military or the Mall Ninja's, does it matter? In my opinion not really as long as the knives live up to their expectations for the hard earned cash you pay for them. Value for money that counts, and from what I read here the competition seems to be getting ahead of EKI.

Lets make a S35VN or Elmax, framelock Emerson at 260-280 USD like the upcoming Zero Tolerance 560 and see what happens, maybe even the Military is going to want them! Ernest show us what you got we all know you can do it ! Who cares maybe even a nice Emerson collaboration knife....dreams...dreams...


Hell, yeah! You couldn't have said it any better. :thumbup:

I bet Mr. Emerson would be sold out in the first week if he produced something like that.
 
Last edited:
Well, I perhaps, should have shown more exceptance for others opinions in my post.

As for liner-locks, just because lots of companies produce them doesn't mean anything. The majority is often wrong. A liner-lock is with out a doubt a liability when it's put on any knife that isn't marketed as nothing more than a pure cutting tool. I've literally lost track of the liner-locks I've personally seen fail under spine-pressure and spine-whacks. Three manufactures that come to mind immeadiately include Emerson, Microtech, and ZT. I feel these "locks" should be painted with a broad brush.
But I know, I know, when was the last time you needed to cut something with the spine of a knife? Spine-whacking is abusive. Knives are for cutting. Use the right tool for the job. Ect., ect..
In the end, it seems my opinion of liner-locks isn't shared by most people. People think it's a great lock, and so I should not expect a company to stop using them.
A frame-lock is a totaly different animal and is "much" safer in my opinion.

Sorry to temporarily sidetrack the thread.
 
Back
Top