Folder design with best lateral/prying strength

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Thereisnocowlevel said:
How many edc a prybar or flathead? The knife is gonna be used.
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I've got a multitool in my pocket right now. Inkosi in the right main pocket. Leatherman Rebar in the watch pocket. I'm a contractor, so having even the most basic tools on my person is just part of who I am. However, it's really not a big issue to carry a dedicated prying tool with what i need to pry regardless of my work load.

My Inkosi can certainly hold up to whatever i can throw at it. However, and this is just me, I'm going to do any grunt/beater/prying work with one of the tools on my $50 Leatherman before I subject my $450 knife to it.

I think everyone's point about lateral blade play for prying has to do with the fact that you really shouldn't pry with a folder unless you have to. And the prying we will all be guilty of doing won't really affect the knife in any adverse way. If you are flexing titanium or even just FRN with steel liners, you're going too hard and using your tool wrong. You are either trying to get out of a life or death situation or need to buy a multitool.
 
Thereisnocowlevel said:
How many edc a prybar or flathead? The knife is gonna be used.
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I do. I made this one but you can find them pretty cheap online.
 
No I think it’s designing a knife, a tool, that has design elements that protects the pivot area and frame from the occasional prying. Of course not all out prying but day to day prying like removing staples, opening a lid. You can damage the multitool too prying. Also many people’s multitool cost more than their knife ;) the Kershaws and crkt and cs are gonna cost less than a leatherman

I don’t understand why in the knife community there’s such a push back on lateral strength. If I stab or chop I am putting lateral force on the frame. Striving for design innovations that relieve that force is a good thing and I feel like we are brainwashed by manufacturer marketing and protecting their warranty claims.

How many pages of debates about lock strength? The frame lock, axis, triad are pointless if the frame falls apart from lateral force.
 
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There isn't a huge "push back on lateral strength" at all.

There is a recognition that a folding knife is a stupid option for somebody wanting to pry something.

Design a pair of scissors that's better for prying, or toothbrush, or pair of earrings.... be just as stupid.

But keep at it. I'm sure some knife designer is going to be so intrigued by your notion that he/she will jump in here.
 
Thereisnocowlevel said:
No I think it’s designing a knife, a tool, that has design elements that protects the pivot area and frame from the occasional prying. Of course not all out prying but day to day prying like removing staples, opening a lid. You can damage the multitool too prying. Also many people’s multitool cost more than their knife ;) the Kershaws and crkt and cs are gonna cost less than a leatherman

I don’t understand why in the knife community there’s such a push back on lateral strength. If I stab or chop I am putting lateral force on the frame. Striving for design innovations that relieve that force is a good thing and I feel like we are brainwashed by manufacturer marketing and protecting their warranty claims.

How many pages of debates about lock strength? The frame lock, axis, triad are pointless if the frame falls apart from lateral force.
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I dont know if this was a response to my post but I went back and read your op and I'll take a shot at it.
I guess I would start with a blade made from thick stock and no holes in it like someone else mentioned. I'd go with a razel style tip for tip strength and all steel handle construction. Maybe a thick steel frame lock with an additional lock that would hold the lock bar in place.
The problem with this to me is I would end up with a knife that didn't cut things very well. Truth be told, I've done some of the light prying that you described with folders that I have and they have held up just fine.

If you have the need to pry things on a regular basis why not carry a small pry bar and just have your knife for cutting task?
 
Thereisnocowlevel said:
The issue does exist because manufacturers are marketing folder locks that are able to withstand hundreds of pounds of force, vertically. And then they go about touting that their design is hardest working toughest knife. There are numerous discussions regards to who has the strongest lock in a folder. I’m taking a jab at both value and premium blades doing this marketing. We the consumers drink this up. I would say given how much marketing and discussion that the strength of the lock is definitely important. To me it is pointless if the folder is only strong in one direction.

No it’s not as strong as a pry bar, but it is not a hard working folder if you tout hundreds of points of vertical force but is compromised with light day to day prying tasks, like removing a stapler

To those mentioning SAK, a SAK is a folder...focus on the lock/frame construction not blade geometry
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Any knife maker who make folders can make folder like you want .It will be strong for prying like fixed blade in same dimension .BUT would you pay the price ?
This is second folder knife I make .It is some kind of friction folder . No bearing no shims no ball detent . Frame/scale are from 2.5mm , 64 Rockwell HSS steel , blade is 3mm 64 Rockwell HSS steel , pivot is 6mm. hardened stainless steel .Even spacer between scales is 3mm HSS steel.If you try to use this knife for prying I can bet that blade will fall not frame .My point is make scale in same thickness/or more / and hardness in same steel / as blade and you have almost if not all strength of fixed blade with same thickness on spine .... Money talk here my friend :D
Everything is peened except pivot ....

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craytab said:
I can see the ad copy now... "Lateral Strength: the latest thing you didn't know you needed in a folding knife! Watch us pry through this 500lb frozen pig and ridicule other knives that can't!"
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I would probably buy it. Or, at least have to work really hard to talk myself out of it.

Danke42 said:
Gentlemen, behold!

maxresdefault.jpg
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Pivot pin is pretty small, IMO, and that scale is just plain old plastic. C'mon, now. That would snap like a twig.
 
So we are looking to come up with a folding knife that will withstand lateral pressure better than a high end production knife, but less expensive than an entry level multitool?

I'm not brainwashed by marketing. I have a passing education in basic physics and the cost of materials needed to complete such a task.
 
If I need to do some *light* prying, and even removing most normal staples, I use either the small screwdriver/can opener blade, or the large screwdriver/bottle opener blade on my SAK. If I’m doing some *light* prying chore that I think might strain the pivot, I simply pinch the base of the implement while doing so, which takes the strain off the pivot. I’ve never loosened the pivot on an SAK doing this.

Another inexpensive option is a small mini-prybar. I have one that cost me less than $10 on one of my keyrings (the one I also keep a mini-flashlight and a Jet Scream whistle on). It’s durable, inexpensive, and has no pivot to loosen.

IMO, both are better options for light prying than a knife blade-only, single-bladed folder. Any folding knife, regardless of lock style, is by design a fixed blade knife that comes pre-broken.

Jim
 
image.jpg Much discussion over this, buy a cheap knife and pry, open paint cans, scrape gum off cement. When you snap the end of the blade off who cares? Buy a new one. A tanto voyager would be the highest price range.
Or just borrow someone else’s knife for your prying tasks haha
 
DocJD said:
:)
CS already is much maligned for their proof tests , especially the comparison tests . Imagine the :poop:-storm if lateral lock testing was added in ! Guys hate seeing their uber expensive knives get trashed by CS . :p
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Trashed by CS .... That knives have everything on them that I don t need . I use knife to cut things when I need not to try to split the Earth :D And I don t like proportion blade/handle on that knives........
 
Steely_Gunz said:
So we are looking to come up with a folding knife that will withstand lateral pressure better than a high end production knife, but less expensive than an entry level multitool?

I'm not brainwashed by marketing. I have a passing education in basic physics and the cost of materials needed to complete such a task.
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Good design elements don’t have to cost more if we can think outside the box...ie not strictly thinking of making things thicker or better materials trying to bolster lateral strength. The hinderer stop pins and the one piece frames of rolled steel from cold steel those are all on employed on sub $50 budget knives.

I want the same innovations that made the triad locks beat the hundreds of dollar frame locks. It is possible when people put their creativity to work and it doesn’t have to be expensive

Do you think the CS pocket bushman mentioned earlier will out pry the CRK Inkosi?
 
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Then why not just buy a knife with a triad lock? If that is the gold standard, so be it. For me, lateral play is pretty much a nonissue. I have no doubt that I could hang off my titanium frame lock laterally and it suffer no real I'll effect, and I'm a solid 205lbs;)

I just dont care enough to do so, and I have dozens of other tools to handle my prying needs.
 
In my profession, most prying is only opening stubborn access panels, usually sheetmetal panels stuck due to rust or being bent. I guess light prying is the best way to categorize it.

I don't see prying in like getting a bank vault to open but more of a stubborn door. Either way I agree that a prybar is the better tool, I also don't use anything other than a chinesium Kershaw to pry open stubborn access panels.
 
Steely_Gunz said:
Then why not just buy a knife with a triad lock? If that is the gold standard, so be it. For me, lateral play is pretty much a nonissue. I have no doubt that I could hang off my titanium frame lock laterally and it suffer no real I'll effect, and I'm a solid 205lbs;)

I just dont care enough to do so, and I have dozens of other tools to handle my prying needs.
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Because triad lock is useless when the frame gets pried open. Also kinda off topic starts at 5:20 mark
 
ErocSD said:
In my profession, most prying is only opening stubborn access panels, usually sheetmetal panels stuck due to rust or being bent. I guess light prying is the best way to categorize it.

I don't see prying in like getting a bank vault to open but more of a stubborn door. Either way I agree that a prybar is the better tool, I also don't use anything other than a chinesium Kershaw to pry open stubborn access panels.
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Yea light duty prying tasks! Kershaw needs to add stop pins found on the higher end ZTs then it would be awesome!
 
Thereisnocowlevel said:
What design elements would enhance a folder’s lateral/prying strength? There are many discussions on subjecting the current lock designs to tremendous vertical force, but the manufacturers shy away from testing/demonstrating lateral strength. Oh yea sure when it comes fixed blades let’s pry the tips, step on the handle etc. but when it comes to folders it is always a sensitive subject. Why not challenge themselves in designing a folder that’s strong both vertically and laterally
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Your watching this one like a hawk. Almost respond post for post.

If a knife maker bragged about prying ability first thing would be all of the complaints and warranty claims for broken folders back to them.There is no existing problem. Knives were meant to cut, not pry. Pry bars are meant to pry not cut. There's a reason prybars don't have pivots.

Most knives can take slight prying, but I can think of one time I've used one for that.
 
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