-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is available! Price is $250 ea (shipped within CONUS).
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/
Folding knife lateral strength tests ?
- Thread starter FFK
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Sep 27, 2012
- Messages
- 282
Seriously if you built that, I would buy it. That would be an awesome Doomsday Knife!
This has probably been noted already, but I'll say it:
Though a test like that may have little relationship to the actual use of the knife, it's not uncommon for an unexpected weak point to become apparent during such a test. This is how we learn to do better.
The failure points aren't always where we expect them to be.
Though a test like that may have little relationship to the actual use of the knife, it's not uncommon for an unexpected weak point to become apparent during such a test. This is how we learn to do better.
The failure points aren't always where we expect them to be.
- Joined
- Aug 2, 2004
- Messages
- 18,850
You need to lose the attachment to the protos you have made. One of the most important points of prototyping is to find real world problems through testing to destruction in the real world. Forget about this damn computer even for just a minute, for goodness sake.....
Why you insist on going round and round in circles I have no idea. You have wasted large amounts of money making expensive protos that by your own admission are not even made to the specs you intend for the final production pieces. You also refuse to destroy any of them becasue you petulantly stick to what a computer is telling you will happen. You have been given good advice time and again only to just brush it away totally ignoring it time and again. You haven't even made these knives yourself and have outsoursed every single part of them.
If you want to be recieved and respected as the knife maker you claim to be you need to start listening to the knife makers that are talking to you. Really, you just have to get over this hurdle and treat one of those knives like it stole money from your gran.
I have a design in the works just now and there are only three proto knives, one will be in bits not long after it is finished and the second will be carried and used by a select group over the next few months to see where I can make improvements or changes. The third will be the final design made with any changes after testing. These knives are costing me essentially nothing as I used matrials I already had and they are made and designed by my self. I even have a take down tool to go with that pass around proto so all aspects of knife use and maintenance will be covered. This exercise in design and prototyping just isn't as hard or expensive as you're making it for your self.
Why you insist on going round and round in circles I have no idea. You have wasted large amounts of money making expensive protos that by your own admission are not even made to the specs you intend for the final production pieces. You also refuse to destroy any of them becasue you petulantly stick to what a computer is telling you will happen. You have been given good advice time and again only to just brush it away totally ignoring it time and again. You haven't even made these knives yourself and have outsoursed every single part of them.
If you want to be recieved and respected as the knife maker you claim to be you need to start listening to the knife makers that are talking to you. Really, you just have to get over this hurdle and treat one of those knives like it stole money from your gran.
I have a design in the works just now and there are only three proto knives, one will be in bits not long after it is finished and the second will be carried and used by a select group over the next few months to see where I can make improvements or changes. The third will be the final design made with any changes after testing. These knives are costing me essentially nothing as I used matrials I already had and they are made and designed by my self. I even have a take down tool to go with that pass around proto so all aspects of knife use and maintenance will be covered. This exercise in design and prototyping just isn't as hard or expensive as you're making it for your self.
Haze,
Getting the FFK to this point has been quite a journey. Everyone looks at it and says ...oh yea....easy...it slides in and out of a handle cavity. Not all
my prototypes are the same internally. Each FFK prototype was a stepping stone....each FFK provided a design solution and then asked a question.
Respectfully, to make an FFK, at the very least you need 3 axis CNC and, it's expensive. The template to make this type of folder is different from any folder
that's been made before. This is a knife that is better built by a machinist or tool and die maker.
Getting the FFK to this point has been quite a journey. Everyone looks at it and says ...oh yea....easy...it slides in and out of a handle cavity. Not all
my prototypes are the same internally. Each FFK prototype was a stepping stone....each FFK provided a design solution and then asked a question.
Respectfully, to make an FFK, at the very least you need 3 axis CNC and, it's expensive. The template to make this type of folder is different from any folder
that's been made before. This is a knife that is better built by a machinist or tool and die maker.
Which all these knifemakers talking to you are, in addition to having an understanding of how to design the real world needs of a knife.
You should be listening to the feedback they are giving you (and that you asked for). You seem to be doing what most new knife makers do...reinventing the wheel using a bizarre process.
Heeding their advice about knife design and knife making will save you a fortune in prototypes.
- Joined
- Feb 3, 2001
- Messages
- 32,359
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2007
- Messages
- 4,288
FFK: It's clear to me (and hopefully to you?) that your current approach in presenting your ideas/prototypes is not being well received.
I've stated this to some extent in your other thread(s), but personally, I think you've jumped the gun in "unveiling" your FFK. While I appreciate your desire to get some unfiltered feedback on your current stage of design iterations, I think you've picked the wrong stage of the process to ask for feedback.
You need to physically answer the questions you've been presenting. SHOW us, in real life example, why your over-center cam lock knife is superior to a typical folder.
As for asking us to test our own folders, I'm not sure why you need to ask others to do your research for you? For $6000 you could have literally bought 50 to 100 quality folders to laterally test and document in every way imaginable.
This brings me to my next question: $6000 prototypes. Personally, I think you need to find a new machine shop, or better yet, an actual knife maker. Even for a "one off" prototype, I think this is a bit high, although I could be wrong. How many shops did you bid this out to?
I also noticed in your video that you've essentially prototyped your design as a finished product? I.E., blue/black anodized frame, coated blade, chamfered edges/corners, milled blade and linters, etc...
If the ultimate go was testing your pivot's lateral strength, why are you investing so much extra time (and a large portion of that $6000) into all of these extraneous details? Save all of that for the FINAL prototype.
Strip all but the most basic elements out of the design and have a "rough" prototype made for lateral testing and setting your baseline. Have a couple replacement blades, pivots, and whatever else made as well.
I might also suggest seeking some more counsel on prototyping designs and taking a product to market before you invest any more significant amounts of personal income.
I've stated this to some extent in your other thread(s), but personally, I think you've jumped the gun in "unveiling" your FFK. While I appreciate your desire to get some unfiltered feedback on your current stage of design iterations, I think you've picked the wrong stage of the process to ask for feedback.
You need to physically answer the questions you've been presenting. SHOW us, in real life example, why your over-center cam lock knife is superior to a typical folder.
As for asking us to test our own folders, I'm not sure why you need to ask others to do your research for you? For $6000 you could have literally bought 50 to 100 quality folders to laterally test and document in every way imaginable.
This brings me to my next question: $6000 prototypes. Personally, I think you need to find a new machine shop, or better yet, an actual knife maker. Even for a "one off" prototype, I think this is a bit high, although I could be wrong. How many shops did you bid this out to?
I also noticed in your video that you've essentially prototyped your design as a finished product? I.E., blue/black anodized frame, coated blade, chamfered edges/corners, milled blade and linters, etc...
If the ultimate go was testing your pivot's lateral strength, why are you investing so much extra time (and a large portion of that $6000) into all of these extraneous details? Save all of that for the FINAL prototype.
Strip all but the most basic elements out of the design and have a "rough" prototype made for lateral testing and setting your baseline. Have a couple replacement blades, pivots, and whatever else made as well.
I might also suggest seeking some more counsel on prototyping designs and taking a product to market before you invest any more significant amounts of personal income.
Nathan the Machinist
KnifeMaker / Machinist / Evil Genius
Moderator
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2007
- Messages
- 18,936
OK I've been wondering this since the first thread you made FFK what are you envisioning this knife to be used for? You keep going on about lateral stress which most of us don't care about and blades generally snap before the lock gives out from as far as I can tale when exposed to this type of stress. Saying you want fixed blade capabilities doesn't cut it in my book, I am honestly curious as to what your building this knife to do in terms of tasks that you view other folding knives to be inferior at doing.
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2009
- Messages
- 7,310
You should test its capabilities to be thrown like a rock!
There a lot of things you can test a knife for that has nothing to do with it being a knife.
If you make a nice folder people will buy it, it does not need to pass non related tasks to be a success.
There a lot of things you can test a knife for that has nothing to do with it being a knife.
If you make a nice folder people will buy it, it does not need to pass non related tasks to be a success.
FFK, It seems to me you are looking for, ahem, leverage to help market your product. In that case a side by side comparison of your design to similar folders should suffice. For lateral strength, friction folders (or friction folders with a lock) with those long opening levers should provide a substantial amount of lateral strength. Also, a good comparison would be to partial tang fixed blades. Since you are testing the lock you do not want the blade to break. You will need to test close to the pivot. If your lock survives where the other designs fail, that will provide consumers with justification to purchase your product. I believe that having any kind of uniqueness when entering an (essentially) saturated market will help with sales. But remember, don't step over dollars to save pennies. If your design does not pan out, abandon it. I know one couple that spent in excess of $10k on an idea. The motivation to continue was, 'We can't stop now or we will have spent our $10k on nothing!'. They ended up loosing an additional $50k. Anyway, don't forget the rotational force (twisting) along the length of the knife and good luck.
Bob6794,
I built the FFK for the same reasons I would buy a full tang fixed knife. To chop, side load the blade(pry) and then be able to fold and put on my hip or
back pack. A knife that carries like a mutitool....and when it's open I got a 9" to 12" tactical or Bowie. Idk...I think it's usefull and Cool !
I built the FFK for the same reasons I would buy a full tang fixed knife. To chop, side load the blade(pry) and then be able to fold and put on my hip or
back pack. A knife that carries like a mutitool....and when it's open I got a 9" to 12" tactical or Bowie. Idk...I think it's usefull and Cool !
Bo T,
I agree, friction/long tang folders should be stronger laterally than current folder design. I did think about modifying that design but decided to pass
because of the tang sticking out substantially when knife is folded. As I see it....to beef up a folding knife you have to add....420 stainless liners,
widen pivot pin, 440C washers, stainless(or Titanium) bolsters, carbon fib handles(high tensile), 56-58 flexible HT.. The FFK doesn't add alot of reinforcing
layers....it'
s 2 pieces of steel(blade/handle),right bolster and an over-center lock.
I agree, friction/long tang folders should be stronger laterally than current folder design. I did think about modifying that design but decided to pass
because of the tang sticking out substantially when knife is folded. As I see it....to beef up a folding knife you have to add....420 stainless liners,
widen pivot pin, 440C washers, stainless(or Titanium) bolsters, carbon fib handles(high tensile), 56-58 flexible HT.. The FFK doesn't add alot of reinforcing
layers....it'
s 2 pieces of steel(blade/handle),right bolster and an over-center lock.
- Joined
- May 9, 2007
- Messages
- 2,955
I can only speak to you as a user or potential customer, so.....
From a customers' point of view: even if you could come up with a folding knife that is stronger than a fixed knife, I really doubt I would buy it because I really don't need a folding knife to do any more than cut well and be easy to carry and sharpen. The features I look for include - frame lock (my preference over other modes of locking), good design which to me encompasses ergonomics and style, good quality materials and last but not least my preferred blade length and shape.
In the cases where I feel I need extra strength out of my knife I will reach for a fixed blade. BUT I cannot remember the last time I needed to do that!!
From a customers' point of view: even if you could come up with a folding knife that is stronger than a fixed knife, I really doubt I would buy it because I really don't need a folding knife to do any more than cut well and be easy to carry and sharpen. The features I look for include - frame lock (my preference over other modes of locking), good design which to me encompasses ergonomics and style, good quality materials and last but not least my preferred blade length and shape.
In the cases where I feel I need extra strength out of my knife I will reach for a fixed blade. BUT I cannot remember the last time I needed to do that!!
Last edited:
- Status