Future of production knives

[Quiet]

Just as good as the real thing and a lot less cash.

Man, Wish.com Ferraris are the best, aren't they? I sold my actual Ferrari and bought like ten of these, the same way I sold one of my Spartan Harsey's and bought like six Civivivichivis*.

 

[Murdamook]

I don't judge small companies in an authoritarian hostile state because of their country's government. If someone were able to demonstrate that Reate was in some meaningful way beholden to or benefiting the Chinese Communist Party or that CKF was connected to the Russian government, I'd stop buying them. Until then they pretty much just seem like another small business run by knife enthusiasts. Even a big knife manufacturer like Spyderco is still pretty much a small business, it's not like CKF is like Gazprom or something where it's a national strategic state-owned operation or like ByteDance in China where its core service is compromised and controlled by the Chinese government. Reate and CKF make knives.

I think the key issue I’m here is that Russia is still assumed to be a constitutional republic with similar economic systems to that of the US. It may not be the case, but perception is what matters. Russia also hasn’t developed a penchant for rampant IP theft and subpar QC like Chinese companies have. As for your mention of CCP ownership over small business: the problem is that the funds sent to said small business are still then circulated to the Chinese government. Likewise, the economic system in place is such that the government could come in and take over production with little to no resistance. Assuming these companies continue to grow, that isn’t out of the realm of possibility. Could the Russian government do similar? Perhaps. But Russia also hasn’t spent the last several decades building throw away items at low QC levels, paying sweatshop level wages to kids, and stealing intellectual property. These things definitely create a stigma that’s hard to live down.

 

[3D Anvil]

I think the key issue I’m here is that Russia is still assumed to be a constitutional republic with similar economic systems to that of the US. It may not be the case, but perception is what matters. Russia also hasn’t developed a penchant for rampant IP theft and subpar QC like Chinese companies have. As for your mention of CCP ownership over small business: the problem is that the funds sent to said small business are still then circulated to the Chinese government. Likewise, the economic system in place is such that the government could come in and take over production with little to no resistance. Assuming these companies continue to grow, that isn’t out of the realm of possibility. Could the Russian government do similar? Perhaps. But Russia also hasn’t spent the last several decades building throw away items at low QC levels, paying sweatshop level wages to kids, and stealing intellectual property. These things definitely create a stigma that’s hard to live down.

Not defending China, but Russia has been up to a whole lot of directly hostile activity towards the US as well as gangster-like activity all over the world, and is a constitutional republic like North Korea is a democracy. Russians who oppose Putin tend to wind up dead or in prison.

That said, this whole country of origin thing can be quite the rabbit hole. I mean, if we're going to use our dollars to push a moral agenda, shouldn't we be supporting people in third-world countries who might be suffering from food insecurity or lack of access to clean drinking water, as opposed to one of our fellow countrymen who might be struggling to upgrade his four-year-old F250? I think some of it is based on ethics/morals, but a lot of it is just tribalism, which is problematic from an ethical/moral standpoint.

 

[Leo Greer]

I think China will become bigger as companies like Twosun figure out how to bring their QC and following to Reate and WE levels. Same with outfits like CH and Tuyaknife. Heck, Rike Knife is already acknowledged as a serious manufacturer. They helped make the Socom Bravo with Microtech, and the (dolphin, I want to say?) with Brous Blades, and a bunch of other stuff. They have a whole series of high end milled Ti integrals, and as most people probably know just put out the first G-10 integral.

Reate and WE are already at holy Trinity levels. Their prices aren’t quite so high, but you do pay for what you get: good quality.

I think that the US manufactures will continue to survive because people want them to, and are willing to pay for companies like CRK, Hinderer, and even BM to keep running.

However, China is coming.

BM just raised their dealer prices across the board by 20-30%.

To buy a Spyderco in G-10 and S30V costs the same as a WE in Ti and 20CV.

Make it FRN and S30V for BM, vs Kizer’s standard Ti and S35VN.

Now, there are definitely some features of both of those brands that keep people buying them. There isn’t a Chinese equivalent of Spyderco yet. Largely, I believe, because of the flourishing secondary market.

BM also has some good features. I got a Bugout for relatively cheap, and it finds its way into my pocket quite a bit. (It was half price from MSRP…)

However, I have found that the majority of the China manufactured knives that I’ve owned and still own are at least the equal of their American made equivalents.

A decent example is the BM Mini Crooked Creek vs. the CH Emperor.

The BM may be had for about $270. It has S30V and stabilized wood for the handle. Axis lock, you know the drill. I like this knife. It’s very nicely styled, and is a usable knife, unlike the full sized version which gives me trouble to work with. (Obviously this is just my own experience, other people may have 0 trouble)

The Emperor can either be ordered from China ($180) or bought from the US ($252). It has a Ti framelock handle and S35VN blade steel. Timascus pivot collars. Sandblasted finish on the Ti and the blade. This is one of the knives that I’m not getting rid of soon. (Hopefully) The aesthetics are just gorgeous, and the action is too. This is a flipper.

Both of these knives are similar shapes. The Emperor is a bit longer. The Crooked River is probably designed slightly better (the Emperor’s thumbstuds are unusable).

But ultimately, I bought my Emperor for $140 used in excellent shape. It needed a disassembly, cleaning, and some lube, but I carry it very frequently.

Good luck finding the BM equivalent for that price!

Chinese manufacturers can simply afford to produce knives in preferable materials and (often) with very good QC at far lower prices.

Nothing against any of these knife manufacturers. If someone gifts me a BM or ZT I’ll say “Thank you very much!”, and probably love the knife.

But will I spend the extra money to buy something that I’ll arguably enjoy less?

Probably not.

If I want to spend the money for the expensive BMs and Spydercos and ZTs, you’ll probably find me shopping for Reates instead.

 

[stonproject]

I just buy what I like.

 

[Leo Greer]

With the new Chinese brands over last couple years like WE civiviviv relate etc. that charge premium prices, WHY are people paying the same price on those as a US made knife??? That’s what I don’t understand.

This is not a political question, it’s economic question. When you know the China made knife cost a fourth to make than the US made knife.

China made knife has its place but don’t pay US made prices for them!

I agree with that. It’s why I’m willing to buy Civivi and WE for less than the US made variants. Typically, those two brands are less than their US equivalents in my experience.

Try finding a Ti framelock with hand rubbed 20CV and gorgeous fit and finish for $200 out of a US outfit. (I’m practically referencing the WE Upshot, Seer, and a bunch of others)

Kizer does Ti and S35VN cheaper.

Tuyaknife does it cheaper than they do.

Twosun does it even cheaper. Though Twosuns can be difficult to buy, actually.

 

[Jsega51]

I just buy what I like.

I just recently received a Russian made knife from an American knife dealer on the west coast, a customized fixed blade from an American maker in the South, and a forest axe from a blacksmith in Sweden.

I buy what I like asswell!

 

[Murdamook]

Not defending China, but Russia has been up to a whole lot of directly hostile activity towards the US as well as gangster-like activity all over the world, and is a constitutional republic like North Korea is a democracy. Russians who oppose Putin tend to wind up dead or in prison.

That said, this whole country of origin thing can be quite the rabbit hole. I mean, if we're going to use our dollars to push a moral agenda, shouldn't we be supporting people in third-world countries who might be suffering from food insecurity or lack of access to clean drinking water, as opposed to one of our fellow countrymen who might be struggling to upgrade his four-year-old F250? I think some of it is based on ethics/morals, but a lot of it is just tribalism, which is problematic from an ethical/moral standpoint.

This is why I mentioned perception and how it impacts Russian products in the US. I help people in third world and developing nations by donating to charitable organizations that fight the things listed directly. By this standard, we should just forsake all American businesses and only be buying Chinese products. The ultimate problem is, again, that the money paid to a Chinese company is funneled directly to the government through taxation. The government could also come and take the very thing you helped grow. Is it nice and noble to help people in developing nations? Sure. But you have to ask yourself if the funds from your Civivi purchase are actually going where you presume they’re going. I can research every dollar that a charity brings in and see for myself their earnings ratios, etc. Not so with a knife company, which is, by definition, not a charity.

 

[Quiet]

I agree with that. It’s why I’m willing to buy Civivi and WE for less than the US made variants. Typically, those two brands are less than their US equivalents in my experience.

Try finding a Ti framelock with hand rubbed 20CV and gorgeous fit and finish for $200 out of a US outfit. (I’m practically referencing the WE Upshot, Seer, and a bunch of others)

Kizer does Ti and S35VN cheaper.

Tuyaknife does it cheaper than they do.

Twosun does it even cheaper. Though Twosuns can be difficult to buy, actually.

Fortunately, some folks have the funds to not have to shop 100% on materials for dollar prices.

 

[Leo Greer]

Fortunately, some folks have the funds to not have to shop 100% on materials for dollar prices.

Clearly! And that’s obviously not everything that makes a knife a quality piece of cutlery. It’s why I would buy a Reate in the first place.

At least for me, though, a knife being made out of materials that I see as higher value really increases my enjoyment of carrying and using it. But that’s just my opinion.

 

[Quiet]

Clearly! And that’s obviously not everything that makes a knife a quality piece of cutlery. It’s why I would buy a Reate in the first place.

At least for me, though, a knife being made out of materials that I see as higher value really increases my enjoyment of carrying and using it. But that’s just my opinion.

That doesn't track. You just spoke of it being a big part of why you purchase Chinese knives, because a bunch of Chinese companies offer materials cheaper than American companies* do. I mean, if your opinion is that Chinese knives are designed better, I don't agree with that in the slightest, and it's especially amusing considering how many products We/Reate make these days that are designed by Americans, and seem to be much better thought of than their in-house products.




* Because that's what happens when a company pays skilled Americans a living wage and benefits, versus employing a faceless army of drones running a bunch of machines in a country with a much lower income rate and COL.

 

[3D Anvil]

This is why I mentioned perception and how it impacts Russian products in the US. I help people in third world and developing nations by donating to charitable organizations that fight the things listed directly. By this standard, we should just forsake all American businesses and only be buying Chinese products. The ultimate problem is, again, that the money paid to a Chinese company is funneled directly to the government through taxation. The government could also come and take the very thing you helped grow. Is it nice and noble to help people in developing nations? Sure. But you have to ask yourself if the funds from your Civivi purchase are actually going where you presume they’re going. I can research every dollar that a charity brings in and see for myself their earnings ratios, etc. Not so with a knife company, which is, by definition, not a charity.

Yep, it's complicated. One could argue that the best way to defeat communism is to support capitalism in communist countries, which eventually leads to higher wages and better working conditions, leading to a significant middle class, which is less tolerant of civil rights abuses, and which in turn helps to neutralize their competitive advantage. This has been happening in Vietnam for quite a while, and it's also happening in China. Hell, there are quite a few Chinese billionaires. As in, there are at least 30 Chinese businessmen who are worth between $15 and $69 billion each.

I don't think it benefits America in the long run to pay more for the same or inferior products. That just discourages businesses from working to compete globally.

 

[madcap_magician]

I think the key issue I’m here is that Russia is still assumed to be a constitutional republic with similar economic systems to that of the US. It may not be the case, but perception is what matters. Russia also hasn’t developed a penchant for rampant IP theft and subpar QC like Chinese companies have. As for your mention of CCP ownership over small business: the problem is that the funds sent to said small business are still then circulated to the Chinese government. Likewise, the economic system in place is such that the government could come in and take over production with little to no resistance. Assuming these companies continue to grow, that isn’t out of the realm of possibility. Could the Russian government do similar? Perhaps. But Russia also hasn’t spent the last several decades building throw away items at low QC levels, paying sweatshop level wages to kids, and stealing intellectual property. These things definitely create a stigma that’s hard to live down.

I'm not really sure what you mean by all this. Who assumes Russia is a constitutional republic with a similar economic system to the U.S.? Not me, for sure. And your general statements about Chinese IP theft and quality control problems are true, but also general. The only Chinese knives I buy are Reate-made ones on occasion. The quality is impeccable, and no one has ever accused them of stealing a design. Actually at this point most of their business model is being the OEM for designers and knife makers wanting to do midtech lines, the number of knives designed by their own internal designers is quite small now. If you have some specific complaint about Reate in terms of IP theft or quality control, I'm open to hearing it, but otherwise judging Reate because of Ganzo is like refusing to buy Chris Reeve because of Quartermaster. I mean... they're not the same thing.

And yes, of course Reate's taxes fund the Chinese government. That's pretty far removed from Reate somehow being complicit in or vital to Communist oppression. I'm Taiwanese and have more reason to be concerned about Communist China than I reckon most other Americans do, but I'm not getting bent out of shape about Reate's taxes. No matter where you live, you're gonna have to pay taxes, and some of it is going to things you don't support, but you don't have much choice in the matter.

My point here is that of your general issues with China, none of them seem to apply to Reate. I don't know about the other Chinese companies, and Reate in China and CKF in Russia are the only ones with which I have experience and therefore the only ones I'm defending, but I think Reate has very much overcome the stigma of Chinese-made knives.

Maybe one day we'll have a great knife company in Pakistan and another country's knifemaking industry can get a reputation makeover!

 

[Quiet]

Yep, it's complicated. One could argue that the best way to defeat communism is to support capitalism in communist countries, which eventually leads to higher wages and better working conditions, leading to a significant middle class, which is less tolerant of civil rights abuses, and which in turn helps to neutralize their competitive advantage. This has been happening in Vietnam for quite a while, and it's also happening in China. Hell, there are quite a few Chinese billionaires. As in, there are at least 30 Chinese businessmen who are worth between $15 and $69 billion each.

I don't think it benefits America in the long run to pay more for the same or inferior products. That just discourages businesses from working to compete globally.

Many American companies have had to cut corners somewhere or else they get forced out of the market by these goliath-sized companies overseas who have WalMarted the hell out of our economy. I really don't understand the mindset that we should be cool with American manufacturing capability continuing to go away, and we end up leaning more and more on foreign companies. It's why so much of our manufacturing capability moved overseas, and isn't ever coming back. Remember back when we used to make a lot more things here than we do now? Know why we don't? Because people want bottom dollar, regardless. And you know, that's fine, I understand that people have household budgets they have to meet. However, it would be one thing if the overseas countries whose companies are flooding our markets with their goods were our friends, instead of it being a country who has made it clear that they are in it for the long game of seeing our country in decline, and undermining us at every turn.

Probably too political an answer, and I'll back away from that side of it, but that's where we're at.

 

[aji1]

I would liken the difference to "degree of difficulty" (I've had the Olympics on in the background for a week). CRK's knives have a relatively low degree of difficulty (slab handles, overlays, bead blast), but are impeccably made, so they merit their cost. Hinderer is probably comparable in difficulty, but not done quite as well as CRK. The OEM knives Reate makes have arguably higher degree of difficulty (inlays, contoured handles, complex grinds, hand satin and other "fancy" finishes, etc.) while still having excellent execution. Regardless of geography, that's a combination that merits a high price.

I am reasonably certain that CRKs are inlayed. Maybe not flush with the titanium, but the wood/micarta/etc. are set into milled recesses in the handles. I couldn't find it with a quick search, but there are photos here somewhere.

 

[3D Anvil]

Many American companies have had to cut corners somewhere or else they get forced out of the market by these goliath-sized companies overseas who have WalMarted the hell out of our economy. I really don't understand the mindset that we should be cool with American manufacturing capability continuing to go away, and we end up leaning more and more on foreign companies. It's why so much of our manufacturing capability moved overseas, and isn't ever coming back. Remember back when we used to make a lot more things here than we do now? Know why we don't? Because people want bottom dollar, regardless. And you know, that's fine, I understand that people have household budgets they have to meet. However, it would be one thing if the overseas countries whose companies are flooding our markets with their goods were our friends, instead of it being a country who has made it clear that they are in it for the long game of seeing our country in decline, and undermining us at every turn.

Probably too political an answer, and I'll back away from that side of it, but that's where we're at.

I'm definitely for U.S. manufacturing, but in order for it to succeed it has to compete globally. Look what happened to the U.S. auto industry in the 1960s-80s. If people are buying American just to buy American, U.S. manufacturing falls further and further behind the competition and eventually most folks are going to say, "you know what? I'm not paying good money for your crappy K Car or Mustang II." If you can't compete due to wages and environmental regs, you've got to think outside the box, like Elon Musk did with Tesla. I'd love to see someone build a U.S. OEM that could compete with Reate, WE, etc. Seems like it should be doable, since most of that kind of production is done by machines.

 

[Quiet]

I'm definitely for U.S. manufacturing, but in order for it to succeed it has to compete globally. Look what happened to the U.S. auto industry in the 1960s-80s. If people are buying American just to buy American, U.S. manufacturing falls further and further behind the competition and eventually most folks are going to say, "you know what? I'm not paying good money for your crappy K Car or Mustang II." If you can't compete due to wages and environmental regs, you've got to think outside the box, like Elon Musk did with Tesla. I'd love to see someone build a U.S. OEM that could compete with Reate, WE, etc. Seems like it should be doable, since most of that kind of production is done by machines.

It's never going to happen as long as Americans get paid more and American regulations and laws are more strict. I mean, people (many here in this thread) keep talking about how awesome it is that China can do all these things for less, which amazes me due to the obliviousness of such statements. Oh man, Usain Bolt totally crushed that other guy in a wheelchair in the hundred yard dash! I'm definitely a big fan of Bolt over Wheelchair Guy for sure. As an analogy, a bit sloppy, but the point is the same: if our countries were level playing fields in all respects, something tells me We and Reate knives wouldn't be nearly as cheap as they currently cost when Employee #617 who works at Machine #874 located in Guongdong Factory Building #6 is now making what, say, an employee at Spyderco's Golden, CO facility, or somebody at Buck, or Benchmade makes.

Also, a word on the auto industry: that wasn't outright competition that we got beat on, though I recognize that that's always a popular theory. There were a lot of shenanigans that went down, that essentially cut US automakers off at the knees. An awful lot predatory pricing, and market dumping went on.

 

[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

I think what you meant is that it's hard for you to give them the benefit of the doubt. You keep using these sweeping statements as though you are speaking for everyone when you talk about fit and finish problems. There are a ton of us who have had countless Golden, CO Spydercos with zero problems (because great knives are made there). Your personal experience is not to be taken as any sort of objective statement or judgement. So, you do you, but I'll keep giving my countrymen "the benefit of the doubt", thanks. Enjoy your Chinese knives. Every single Civivi I've ever seen in person looks and feels as cheap as its price would suggest, like a sad attempt at looking more expensive than it is, because that's what sells. "Check out this knife, it's a flipper with bearings, a damasteel blade, and carbon fiber, just like the expensive guys have! That means it's just as good!"

As long as something "looks" nice for most people, that's all they seem to care about. Some of us have moved on from that mindset.

Also? I'm just going to be blunt. Your credibility left the building with the above bolded. If CRK's level of fitment and finish were of "relatively of low difficulty", then everyone would do it. Plenty of American makers offer all the things you listed, done just as well as Reate does them, so where's their kudos? Oh, right, sorry, there's that subjectivity dressed up as objectivity again.

I guess I need to explain how judged sports work, because you clearly don't understand what I'm getting at. In a sport with judging (snowboarding, freestyle skiing, figure skating, diving, gymnastics, skateboarding, etc.) you're scored based on your level of execution relative to the degree of difficulty of your routine. The degree of difficulty establishes a baseline, and your score can go up or down depending on how well you execute it. An athlete with a lower degree of difficulty can score high, but it takes flawless execution.

That's CRK's niche. Their hallmark is precision execution of relatively simple, utilitarian designs. Bead blasting is an objectively less difficult finish than most others (which is part of why CRK took some flak when they started blasting some parts that had previously been polished). Objectively, slab handles are lower difficulty than contoured ones, but CRK makes slab titanium handles that are damn near perfect. Their level of execution is what justifies the cost of their knives, not the difficulty of their designs. Which is why I said that Hinderer's degree of difficulty is basically the same - Hinderer's designs are similarly utilitarian, but not executed with the level of perfection that CRK has. Reate incorporates elements that are objectively harder (contouring, flush-fit inlays, hand-rubbed finishes) with a level of execution that very few production companies match, which justifies their pricing. The completely different design languages are what really keep CRK and Reate from being direct competitors.

I've got 6 Golden-made Spydercos, and none of them is made well enough to warrant what they cost now. Not a one of my newer US-made Spydercos had a symmetrical grind when I got it. Some had burrs on the liners and all have generally meh fit and finish. There's a reason the "fancy" Spydercos come out of Taichung. My most recent Golden knife (the orange and blue Cutlery Shoppe PM2, for obvious reason) was $175, and my Neutron, which cost around $185, absolutely puts the PM2's materials and finish to shame.

I am reasonably certain that CRKs are inlayed. Maybe not flush with the titanium, but the wood/micarta/etc. are set into milled recesses in the handles. I couldn't find it with a quick search, but there are photos here somewhere.

They definitely sit in a recess, so you could accurately say they're inlaid rather than overlaid (they're definitely not just glued onto a standard scale). I was trying to differentiate that the material sits noticeably proud of the handle, so there's more margin for error than with an inlay that's flush with the surrounding material. Maybe "onlay" would've been a more appropriate to make that distinction?

 

[Quiet]

I guess I need to explain how judged sports work, because you clearly don't understand what I'm getting at. In a sport with judging (snowboarding, freestyle skiing, figure skating, diving, gymnastics, skateboarding, etc.) you're scored based on your level of execution relative to the degree of difficulty of your routine. The degree of difficulty establishes a baseline, and your score can go up or down depending on how well you execute it. An athlete with a lower degree of difficulty can score high, but it takes flawless execution.

That's CRK's niche. Their hallmark is precision execution of relatively simple, utilitarian designs. Bead blasting is an objectively less difficult finish than most others (which is part of why CRK took some flak when they started blasting some parts that had previously been polished). Objectively, slab handles are lower difficulty than contoured ones, but CRK makes slab titanium handles that are damn near perfect. Their level of execution is what justifies the cost of their knives, not the difficulty of their designs. Which is why I said that Hinderer's degree of difficulty is basically the same - Hinderer's designs are similarly utilitarian, but not executed with the level of perfection that CRK has. Reate incorporates elements that are objectively harder (contouring, flush-fit inlays, hand-rubbed finishes) with a level of execution that very few production companies match, which justifies their pricing. The completely different design languages are what really keep CRK and Reate from being direct competitors.

I've got 6 Golden-made Spydercos, and none of them is made well enough to warrant what they cost now. Not a one of my newer US-made Spydercos had a symmetrical grind when I got it. Some had burrs on the liners and all have generally meh fit and finish. There's a reason the "fancy" Spydercos come out of Taichung. My most recent Golden knife (the orange and blue Cutlery Shoppe PM2, for obvious reason) was $175, and my Neutron, which cost around $185, absolutely puts the PM2's materials and finish to shame.


They definitely sit in a recess, so you could accurately say they're inlaid rather than overlaid (they're definitely not just glued onto a standard scale). I was trying to differentiate that the material sits noticeably proud of the handle, so there's more margin for error than with an inlay that's flush with the surrounding material. Maybe "onlay" would've been a more appropriate to make that distinction?

Actually, I understand just fine, though the olympics judging "explanation" is amusing, to say the least. I'm still seeing an attempt at leveling your subjective personal experience against a company in an objective way. Maybe work on that. Also, may I ask what knife manufacturer you work for, and how many years of knife manufacturing experience you have? You're attempting to speak on design and manufacturing methodologies for different companies, and I'd like to know what personal experience makes this anything more than your subjective opinion. You keep speaking about "difficult", which means you must have some extensive hands-on experience to share. Thanks!

 

[Danke42]

The common American clearly has too much money. Slash their wages by 75% and watch the market for overseas luxury knives wither.