Future of production knives

[soc_monki]

With the new Chinese brands over last couple years like WE civiviviv relate etc. that charge premium prices, WHY are people paying the same price on those as a US made knife??? That’s what I don’t understand.

This is not a political question, it’s economic question. When you know the China made knife cost a fourth to make than the US made knife.

China made knife has its place but don’t pay US made prices for them!

If I like the knife and don't mind the price I buy it. I ordered a new We Subjugator yesterday morning because it's a damn fine looking knife. I have multiple Civivis, all are great and very reasonably priced. The We is reasonably priced as well. Marbled CF, titanium, 20cv, titanium hardware, ceramic ball bearings, and I paid just a hair over the price of a standard Spyderco Shaman. That's value, imo.

I also have 4 Spyderco Shamans, 3 Native Chiefs, a Manix 2 xl, 2 Pm2s, 2 para 3s...i have 14 or so Benchmades (4 being customs), 6 or so ZTs, Kershaws (mostly Chinese but I have 4 Bareknuckles which are US made), some bucks, a bunch of Beckers.... I also have Taiwan spydercos, Chinese spydercos, cold steels knives made in Taiwan. CoO doesn't matter to me much, it's more what I am willing to pay compared to where it comes from.

I won't go into China and it's government, that is for another forum and will get this thread shut down. If you don't want to buy Chinese then don't.

 

[soc_monki]

One last thought... People are so down on Chinese knives because of their government. What about Russia? So many sing the praises of Shirogorov and CKF, but in the same breath condemn Chinese knives. Yes, I understand there are differences, but come on. Just look at what Russia has done, and is doing now.

Just genuinely curious.

 

[Monofletch]

With Reate and WE making such high quality knives MOST US manufacturers can’t compete. The tolerances on these knives are AMAZING!

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

I’ll finally weigh in here.

I doubt China will be making all knives in a decade. There are die hard people in North America that will only buy North American made products.

I personally find that if a knife I like is made in China, I generally will not purchase. I have enough knives to last a lifetime.

I’m sure what I’m about to state will be disagreed with, but it’s just my opinion.
I don’t see the big deal with Reate, WE, Civivi, Kizer and the like. To me, they are soul-less. I do not find the action of any of these knives to be a “wow” factor. I’m a PB washer fan and really dislike the bearing feel and action. Bearings make it really easy to manufacture a knife that has a perfectly centered blade, so it’s hard for me to praise their “tolerances.”

I’m not saying I won’t buy ANYTHING (knives included) from China, but I do take a hard look at where they are made. And for the last few years, no knife I have bought is “made in China.”

Carry on.

 

[Quiet]

No, because China, with good quality control, can produce a better knife at a lower cost. I don't live in the USA, so I have no need to be patriotic towards the USA. I have had a poor experience with USA made knives. Affordable USA made knives I've looked at had poor quality control compared to the Chinese knives, and the better USA made knives are so damn expensive that I can't justify the cost. I'm not worried.

Interesting, so do you believe that the old adage people are always using in defense of Chinese goods about how they can make quality to whatever level the price point is so we shouldn't judge poorly made Chinese knives because oh em geee, they were just being made to fit a price point, doesn't apply to US manufacturers? Because I've sure held a lot of crappy cheap Chinese knives myself, and have held (and used) plenty of decent inexpensive American made knives. Decent American knives exist at decent price points if you know where to look.

 

[c7m2p3]

One last thought... People are so down on Chinese knives because of their government. What about Russia? So many sing the praises of Shirogorov and CKF, but in the same breath condemn Chinese knives. Yes, I understand there are differences, but come on. Just look at what Russia has done, and is doing now.

Just genuinely curious.

I think it is probably a bunch of factors but the primary one is the politics is secondary to a lot of folks its the price that really gets them which is also understandable. We in this community love knives. As such we don't like seeing when a favorite brand or designer gets crowded out of the market by what many people would say are cheaper, lower quality options aimed at market saturation.

Now, I don't think that is the whole story because as I said above...the customer in the market for a CRK is not the same person looking for a $40 Civivi Praxis and even if they are the same person, they are going to buy both anyways so its no loss for CRK. The problem a lot of folks are running into specificially with Shiro compared to Chinese manufacturing is the price.

No one feels bad about Shiro cuz thats really expensive and thus confers a level of exclusivity that is also present with high dollar US made knives like CRK and Hinderer. We and Reate are making knives at price points like $200 that are damn near perfect and that is what has people clutching pearls.

 

[soc_monki]

I think it is probably a bunch of factors but the primary one is the politics is secondary to a lot of folks its the price that really gets them which is also understandable. We in this community love knives. As such we don't like seeing when a favorite brand or designer gets crowded out of the market by what many people would say are cheaper, lower quality options aimed at market saturation.

Now, I don't think that is the whole story because as I said above...the customer in the market for a CRK is not the same person looking for a $40 Civivi Praxis and even if they are the same person, they are going to buy both anyways so its no loss for CRK. The problem a lot of folks are running into specificially with Shiro compared to Chinese manufacturing is the price.

No one feels bad about Shiro cuz thats really expensive and thus confers a level of exclusivity that is also present with high dollar US made knives like CRK and Hinderer. We and Reate are making knives at price points like $200 that are damn near perfect and that is what has people clutching pearls.

Well, I enjoy them all. I have hinderers, and I have a reate made sharp by design. It was cheaper than my Hinderers, but it's also more "fancy" if you can fall it that. Marbled cf inlays, very well machined and curved titanium. The blade grind is just... Mmmm!
The Hinderers are great too, but are thick, chunky, workmanlike. They're going to take and give a beating, and are heavy (and worth the price imo).
I've never held a Shiro, but wouldn't mind it, see what all the hype is about. But... There's a place for all. If one costs less, who cares? Lol. Buy what you like.

 

[c7m2p3]

Well, I enjoy them all. I have hinderers, and I have a reate made sharp by design. It was cheaper than my Hinderers, but it's also more "fancy" if you can fall it that. Marbled cf inlays, very well machined and curved titanium. The blade grind is just... Mmmm!
The Hinderers are great too, but are thick, chunky, workmanlike. They're going to take and give a beating, and are heavy (and worth the price imo).
I've never held a Shiro, but wouldn't mind it, see what all the hype is about. But... There's a place for all. If one costs less, who cares? Lol. Buy what you like.

Yeah this really gets to my point about the knife user vs the knife enthusiast vs the cross over audience of people. All through this thread there are people mocking knives that have less resale value, not heirloom items, won't command respect within a more austiere community etc but that isn't the point for most people and we have seen that for lots of items. There are collectable cars out there but the vast majority of car buyers are looking for a mode of transportation not as a status piece or something to collect. As such the majority of the market is catering to those folks and its not all that different from knives. If they tried to sell CRK or Hinderers at wally world it just isnt going to work.

As such we have our entry level blades which are almost exclusively produced overseas for price point purposes. Then you have mid tier items $75-200 ish that are a mix of US made (Golden CO spydie models, Benchmade, TRM) you get some Civivi, Kizer, and lower priced WE models that are made overseas, and then you have a section of in between knives produced overseas to high tolerances that allows people to get the materials of something like CRK (Ti, premium steel etc) but at about half the cost.

Its really just econ 101. The number of people buying better than gas station pocket knives has increased over the years (which is a good thing) so companies are trying to find a way to fill that demand with supply. It is difficult or impossible to manufacture knives with the tolerances of CRK and others domestically without jumping over a $400 price point and that turns off a lot of the market. They discovered they can make it work for $250 overseas so they do that. It doesnt necessarily replace a CRK in someones collection but allows a buyer not ready to make a full jump to paying over 4 bills for a pocket knife the chance to experience a higher quality ti frame lock knife at a price they dont have to explain to their financial advisor.

 

[NG VI]

Yeah this really gets to my point about the knife user vs the knife enthusiast vs the cross over audience of people. All through this thread there are people mocking knives that have less resale value, not heirloom items, won't command respect within a more austiere community etc but that isn't the point for most people and we have seen that for lots of items. There are collectable cars out there but the vast majority of car buyers are looking for a mode of transportation not as a status piece or something to collect. As such the majority of the market is catering to those folks and its not all that different from knives. If they tried to sell CRK or Hinderers at wally world it just isnt going to work.

As such we have our entry level blades which are almost exclusively produced overseas for price point purposes. Then you have mid tier items $75-200 ish that are a mix of US made (Golden CO spydie models, Benchmade, TRM) you get some Civivi, Kizer, and lower priced WE models that are made overseas, and then you have a section of in between knives produced overseas to high tolerances that allows people to get the materials of something like CRK (Ti, premium steel etc) but at about half the cost.

Its really just econ 101. The number of people buying better than gas station pocket knives has increased over the years (which is a good thing) so companies are trying to find a way to fill that demand with supply. It is difficult or impossible to manufacture knives with the tolerances of CRK and others domestically without jumping over a $400 price point and that turns off a lot of the market. They discovered they can make it work for $250 overseas so they do that. It doesnt necessarily replace a CRK in someones collection but allows a buyer not ready to make a full jump to paying over 4 bills for a pocket knife the chance to experience a higher quality ti frame lock knife at a price they dont have to explain to their financial advisor.

To be honest I avoided framelocks and liner locks for years after getting a nasty cut from an inexpensive liner lock I was being dumb with. The knife that broke my resistance was Kizer's Velox2 by Michael Vagnino, the streamlined flipper and contoured scales just did it for me, and then I found one on sale, and now I mainly own frame and liner locking knives.

Without something of objectively great quality at a price I couldn't ignore, I might have a much smaller collection today. One that's primarily Benchmade and Spyderco.

 

[emjay]

Interesting, so do you believe that the old adage people are always using in defense of Chinese goods about how they can make quality to whatever level the price point is so we shouldn't judge poorly made Chinese knives because oh em geee, they were just being made to fit a price point, doesn't apply to US manufacturers? Because I've sure held a lot of crappy cheap Chinese knives myself, and have held (and used) plenty of decent inexpensive American made knives. Decent American knives exist at decent price points if you know where to look.

No, we should judge poorly made Chinese knives, or actually, poorly made knives in general. Poorly made knives are dangerous, regardless of the origin. Inexpensive, decent quality USA made knives do not exist in my country. The entry level Buck knives made in the USA are quite expensive in my country and have rubbish quality control (lock stick, lock rock, blade play, uneven grinds, etc). USA made Spydercos can cost more than my rent, which is something I'm not prepared to pay for. USA made knives in my country have heavily inflated prices. Why? I don't know, because Swiss army knives and Opinels are cheap here. Must be something to do with import taxes from the USA itself. So I think you can understand where I get my opinion from? If I can get a Chinese made knife in my country with better steel and quality control than a USA made knife at a much lower price, why should I pick the USA made knife?

 

[Quiet]

No, we should judge poorly made Chinese knives, or actually, poorly made knives in general. Poorly made knives are dangerous, regardless of the origin. Inexpensive, decent quality USA made knives do not exist in my country. The entry level Buck knives made in the USA are quite expensive in my country and have rubbish quality control (lock stick, lock rock, blade play, uneven grinds, etc). USA made Spydercos can cost more than my rent, which is something I'm not prepared to pay for. USA made knives in my country have heavily inflated prices. Why? I don't know, because Swiss army knives and Opinels are cheap here. Must be something to do with import taxes from the USA itself. So I think you can understand where I get my opinion from? If I can get a Chinese made knife in my country with better steel and quality control than a USA made knife at a much lower price, why should I pick the USA made knife?

Hmm...sounds to me like your issue is the poor exchange rate between your country and the United States, which is neither here nor there, nor should be some sign that American knives are too expensive or not quality. It's not really a concern to me whether you pick a Chinese knife or not, but it seems to me that your main gripe with American knives is that they cost too much for your country. I mean, I get it, and can commiserate. Shiros cost insane money here because there are few vendors, so they are able to charge more. I own a Shiro, and have handled several others at various knife shows, and while they're very nice, to me, the significant markup on them makes them not really "worth it" to me. But, I'm not going to say that my country's (The US, for the record) knives are overall better than theirs because they cost more than they should here.

It's just best to have an objective understanding of these sorts of things.

 

[madcap_magician]

One last thought... People are so down on Chinese knives because of their government. What about Russia? So many sing the praises of Shirogorov and CKF, but in the same breath condemn Chinese knives. Yes, I understand there are differences, but come on. Just look at what Russia has done, and is doing now.

Just genuinely curious.

I don't judge small companies in an authoritarian hostile state because of their country's government. If someone were able to demonstrate that Reate was in some meaningful way beholden to or benefiting the Chinese Communist Party or that CKF was connected to the Russian government, I'd stop buying them. Until then they pretty much just seem like another small business run by knife enthusiasts. Even a big knife manufacturer like Spyderco is still pretty much a small business, it's not like CKF is like Gazprom or something where it's a national strategic state-owned operation or like ByteDance in China where its core service is compromised and controlled by the Chinese government. Reate and CKF make knives.

 

[emjay]

Hmm...sounds to me like your issue is the poor exchange rate between your country and the United States, which is neither here nor there, nor should be some sign that American knives are too expensive or not quality. It's not really a concern to me whether you pick a Chinese knife or not, but it seems to me that your main gripe with American knives is that they cost too much for your country. I mean, I get it, and can commiserate. Shiros cost insane money here because there are few vendors, so they are able to charge more. I own a Shiro, and have handled several others at various knife shows, and while they're very nice, to me, the significant markup on them makes them not really "worth it" to me. But, I'm not going to say that my country's (The US, for the record) knives are overall better than theirs because they cost more than they should here.

It's just best to have an objective understanding of these sorts of things.

Well, at the end of the day, I have not been impressed with the quality of USA made Buck knives, even if they were cheaper in my country. I also have to pay the price of whatever the knife goes for in my country, so even if it's cheap in the USA, it's still expensive for me, and I'd rather go for the knife that has better value overall.

 

[Quiet]

Well, at the end of the day, I have not been impressed with the quality of USA made Buck knives, even if they were cheaper in my country. I also have to pay the price of whatever the knife goes for in my country, so even if it's cheap in the USA, it's still expensive for me, and I'd rather go for the knife that has better value overall.

And hey, as well you should. No one would argue that. As you said, you aren't American, so there's no reason for you to favor our knife companies over those from other (or even your) country.

And hey, value is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it? I mean, personally, when a lot of people start listing off all the ways that their Chinese knives are better than those coming from American companies, it just sounds so soulless, like a checkbox list of materials. "Let's see, gotta have M390/20CV, gotta have bearings, gotta have a flipper tab, gotta have carbon fiber/mokuti/etc. or other Instagram-worthy materials scale inserts" and so on. For those of us who buy knives for more passionate reasons, materials start to be less of the driving force. For example, I have a handmade Bob Dozier knife from several years ago, made in basic Carbon Fiber, and "pedestrian" D2 that I wouldn't trade for the most expensive, big Instaclout-worthy knife We/Reate/Kizer has ever made, period.

To me, that knife, handmade by an American, of common materials masterfully worked is worth more than all the tea in China. Simple as that.

 

[emjay]

And hey, as well you should. No one would argue that. As you said, you aren't American, so there's no reason for you to favor our knife companies over those from other (or even your) country.

And hey, value is in the eye of the beholder, isn't it? I mean, personally, when a lot of people start listing off all the ways that their Chinese knives are better than those coming from American companies, it just sounds so soulless, like a checkbox list of materials. "Let's see, gotta have M390/20CV, gotta have bearings, gotta have a flipper tab, gotta have carbon fiber/mokuti/etc. or other Instagram-worthy materials scale inserts" and so on. For those of us who buy knives for more passionate reasons, materials start to be less of the driving force. For example, I have a handmade Bob Dozier knife from several years ago, made in basic Carbon Fiber, and "pedestrian" D2 that I wouldn't trade for the most expensive, big Instaclout-worthy knife We/Reate/Kizer has ever made, period.

To me, that knife, handmade by an American, of common materials masterfully worked is worth more than all the tea in China. Simple as that.

Yeah I definitely agree with you. Value is a subjective thing.

 

[mobilerd]

Kinda like the auto industry. Toyota almost killed GM and Ford. But as any business you must respond to the competition. Chinese knives have already had a huge impact, and they ain’t going away. I still stand by the old adage, you get what you pay for, with few exceptions.

 

[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

Nah, it's just a matter of time before Rolex or some equivalent yields to the market. And if you want to keep it to just knives.... A Chinese made Buck is still a Buck. Except when it comes to present and even more so - future value.

There is no real demand for Swiss luxury watches that aren't made in Switzerland (outside of knockoffs). Rolex sells all the $10k+ watches it can make, so it doesn't make any sense for them to change what they're doing. If you want a cheaper alternative, they even have a "budget" sister company, Tudor ("budget" meaning they start around $1500 and go up to around $6k).

Interesting, so do you believe that the old adage people are always using in defense of Chinese goods about how they can make quality to whatever level the price point is so we shouldn't judge poorly made Chinese knives because oh em geee, they were just being made to fit a price point, doesn't apply to US manufacturers? Because I've sure held a lot of crappy cheap Chinese knives myself, and have held (and used) plenty of decent inexpensive American made knives. Decent American knives exist at decent price points if you know where to look.

At this point, budget Chinese knives are so good that it's hard to give US-made knives the benefit of a doubt. I've got $42 Civivis that are better made than any Golden, CO Spyderco I've ever owned or handled. The only factor the Spyderco really beats them on is blade steel (although it's iffy for the BD1N on the cheapest LW Spydercos); everything else (build, action, grind, finish) would fall in favor of a Civivi that costs less than the cheapest Chinese-made Spyderco with a lock and 1/5th what a PM2 costs (the Bug being the non-locking Spyderco that undercuts Civivi on price).

Part of the issue is that the quality of the high-volume domestic manufacturers has stagnated (or gotten worse) while foreign manufacturers (and even some foreign OEMs for American manufacturers) are doing better and better work. The workmanship and overall quality of a domestic brand like TRM shows that you can make a really good product with good materials in the US for less than $200. The fact that a TRM Atom only costs about $10 more than a DLC PM2, despite having better materials and much better overall quality, should be a good sign, but is likely the opposite. The Ritter/Hogue is probably an even more damning example, since they sell a much better Griptillian for the same price Benchmade does. It seems like Spyderco and Benchmade have decided to rely on their longstanding market position rather than actually improving the value of their products. I think this is why Spyderco sticks with 8Cr13MoV on its Chinese budget line while most of the market has moved on to D2 and better budget stainless alloys - if their Chinese knives get better, it blurs the distinction between their product lines because the quality of the knives coming out of Golden is, at most, only marginally better.

As far as decent, inexpensive American-made knives, the options below $50 are severely limited unless you're a fan of backlocks, traditional slipjoints, assists, or 400-series stainless. You're pushing close to $100 before you'll find something made domestically that doesn't have at least one of those features.

Well, I enjoy them all. I have hinderers, and I have a reate made sharp by design. It was cheaper than my Hinderers, but it's also more "fancy" if you can fall it that. Marbled cf inlays, very well machined and curved titanium. The blade grind is just... Mmmm!
The Hinderers are great too, but are thick, chunky, workmanlike. They're going to take and give a beating, and are heavy (and worth the price imo).
I've never held a Shiro, but wouldn't mind it, see what all the hype is about. But... There's a place for all. If one costs less, who cares? Lol. Buy what you like.

I would liken the difference to "degree of difficulty" (I've had the Olympics on in the background for a week). CRK's knives have a relatively low degree of difficulty (slab handles, overlays, bead blast), but are impeccably made, so they merit their cost. Hinderer is probably comparable in difficulty, but not done quite as well as CRK. The OEM knives Reate makes have arguably higher degree of difficulty (inlays, contoured handles, complex grinds, hand satin and other "fancy" finishes, etc.) while still having excellent execution. Regardless of geography, that's a combination that merits a high price.

 

[Quiet]

There is no real demand for Swiss luxury watches that aren't made in Switzerland (outside of knockoffs). Rolex sells all the $10k+ watches it can make, so it doesn't make any sense for them to change what they're doing. If you want a cheaper alternative, they even have a "budget" sister company, Tudor ("budget" meaning they start around $1500 and go up to around $6k).


At this point, budget Chinese knives are so good that it's hard to give US-made knives the benefit of a doubt. I've got $42 Civivis that are better made than any Golden, CO Spyderco I've ever owned or handled. The only factor the Spyderco really beats them on is blade steel (although it's iffy for the BD1N on the cheapest LW Spydercos); everything else (build, action, grind, finish) would fall in favor of a Civivi that costs less than the cheapest Chinese-made Spyderco with a lock and 1/5th what a PM2 costs (the Bug being the non-locking Spyderco that undercuts Civivi on price).

Part of the issue is that the quality of the high-volume domestic manufacturers has stagnated (or gotten worse) while foreign manufacturers (and even some foreign OEMs for American manufacturers) are doing better and better work. The workmanship and overall quality of a domestic brand like TRM shows that you can make a really good product with good materials in the US for less than $200. The fact that a TRM Atom only costs about $10 more than a DLC PM2, despite having better materials and much better overall quality, should be a good sign, but is likely the opposite. The Ritter/Hogue is probably an even more damning example, since they sell a much better Griptillian for the same price Benchmade does. It seems like Spyderco and Benchmade have decided to rely on their longstanding market position rather than actually improving the value of their products. I think this is why Spyderco sticks with 8Cr13MoV on its Chinese budget line while most of the market has moved on to D2 and better budget stainless alloys - if their Chinese knives get better, it blurs the distinction between their product lines because the quality of the knives coming out of Golden is, at most, only marginally better.

As far as decent, inexpensive American-made knives, the options below $50 are severely limited unless you're a fan of backlocks, traditional slipjoints, assists, or 400-series stainless. You're pushing close to $100 before you'll find something made domestically that doesn't have at least one of those features.


I would liken the difference to "degree of difficulty" (I've had the Olympics on in the background for a week). CRK's knives have a relatively low degree of difficulty (slab handles, overlays, bead blast), but are impeccably made, so they merit their cost. Hinderer is probably comparable in difficulty, but not done quite as well as CRK. The OEM knives Reate makes have arguably higher degree of difficulty (inlays, contoured handles, complex grinds, hand satin and other "fancy" finishes, etc.) while still having excellent execution. Regardless of geography, that's a combination that merits a high price.

I think what you meant is that it's hard for you to give them the benefit of the doubt. You keep using these sweeping statements as though you are speaking for everyone when you talk about fit and finish problems. There are a ton of us who have had countless Golden, CO Spydercos with zero problems (because great knives are made there). Your personal experience is not to be taken as any sort of objective statement or judgement. So, you do you, but I'll keep giving my countrymen "the benefit of the doubt", thanks. Enjoy your Chinese knives. Every single Civivi I've ever seen in person looks and feels as cheap as its price would suggest, like a sad attempt at looking more expensive than it is, because that's what sells. "Check out this knife, it's a flipper with bearings, a damasteel blade, and carbon fiber, just like the expensive guys have! That means it's just as good!"

As long as something "looks" nice for most people, that's all they seem to care about. Some of us have moved on from that mindset.

Also? I'm just going to be blunt. Your credibility left the building with the above bolded. If CRK's level of fitment and finish were of "relatively of low difficulty", then everyone would do it. Plenty of American makers offer all the things you listed, done just as well as Reate does them, so where's their kudos? Oh, right, sorry, there's that subjectivity dressed up as objectivity again.

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

Every single Civivi I've ever seen in person looks and feels as cheap as its price would suggest, like a sad attempt at looking more expensive than it is, because that's what sells.

I feel exactly the same about those… I do have few Chinese folders, I bought them specifically because of the non-Chinese designers and I got one Civivi because I was curious about the steel… What bothers me is when the lame excuse of better craftsmanship is used to justify a purchase of a Chinese manufactured knife that is obviously put together with elements, trendy for this particular target market - few carbon inlays, titanium frame, fancy cut-offs and blade made of some how “super” steel but with boring or pointless design.

 

[Danke42]

I think what you meant is that it's hard for you to give them the benefit of the doubt. You keep using these sweeping statements as though you are speaking for everyone when you talk about fit and finish problems. There are a ton of us who have had countless Golden, CO Spydercos with zero problems (because great knives are made there). Your personal experience is not to be taken as any sort of objective statement or judgement. So, you do you, but I'll keep giving my countrymen "the benefit of the doubt", thanks. Enjoy your Chinese knives. Every single Civivi I've ever seen in person looks and feels as cheap as its price would suggest, like a sad attempt at looking more expensive than it is, because that's what sells. "Check out this knife, it's a flipper with bearings, a damasteel blade, and carbon fiber, just like the expensive guys have! That means it's just as good!"

As long as something "looks" nice for most people, that's all they seem to care about. Some of us have moved on from that mindset.

Also? I'm just going to be blunt. Your credibility left the building with the above bolded. If CRK's level of fitment and finish were of "relatively of low difficulty", then everyone would do it. Plenty of American makers offer all the things you listed, done just as well as Reate does them, so where's their kudos? Oh, right, sorry, there's that subjectivity dressed up as objectivity again.

Just as good as the real thing and a lot less cash.