Future of production knives

[Legendary_Jarl]

Hell no! F the PRC. More and more I see people who don't like the idea of their products coming from a country with such a record in human rights. I always look for alternatives and more and more I find products made in other places. Not just in the case of knives but also toys for my kids and other items. We must show these companies we will NOT support taking production to that tyrannical state.

 

[Quiet]

While there are some companies that have parts made overseas for assembly in the US (mainly automatics due to import laws), I don't think it's economically feasible for most manufacturers to import anything other than hardware, which you can bring over in huge amounts at relatively low cost and with low storage requirements.


CRK is the only US production company making titanium-framed knives with quality that really competes with Reate. You have to be very generous to put a standard production XM-18 in the same category. ProTech makes some absurdly nice collectible-grade knives, but they're customs, so not exactly comparable. Currently, the cheapest PJ Small Sebenza is $375, which goes up to $450 for a PJ Large. A Reate-made Pena front flipper retails for $274, so a solid $100 less than a small PJ Sebenza. The Pena has micarta or carbon overlays, too; a comparable Small Micarta Sebenza would run $475, approaching double the Pena. And that's ignoring the significant difference between CRK's S45VN and the Pena's M390. My most expensive Reate-made knife is a Damasteel Sharpbydesign Evo Typhoon ($560). A Large Sebenza with micarta and Nichols damascus runs $750. That's 35% higher price and you're getting a steel that looks pretty, but falls well short performance-wise to Damasteel's PM alloys. At each tier, the Reate costs less and offers better materials.

If you buy knives primarily on price point only, then I suppose this argument holds water. Others however, start thinking pesky things like "Man, that $750 I just spent with CRK keeps some of my fellow Americans employed." Don't see where Reate is keeping Americans employed.

Also? There's a reason why CRKs have much better resale value than Reates do. I'm trying to put my finger on it, hold on, I'm sure it will come to me.

 

[3D Anvil]

If you buy knives primarily on price point only, then I suppose this argument holds water. Others however, start thinking pesky things like "Man, that $750 I just spent with CRK keeps some of my fellow Americans employed." Don't see where Reate is keeping Americans employed.

Also? There's a reason why CRKs have much better resale value than Reates do. I'm trying to put my finger on it, hold on, I'm sure it will come to me.

For sure, 100% USA-made knives employ more Americans. But like I said before, US knife makers also use Chinese OEMs and that effectively employs those designers. For guys like Brian Nadeau, for example, it isn't a choice of manufacturing in the US or China. The choice is between making *only* full custom knives or making customs *and* using Chinese OEMs for mid-tech knives.

 

[Quiet]

For sure, 100% USA-made knives employ more Americans. But like I said before, US knife makers also use Chinese OEMs and that effectively employs those designers. For guys like Brian Nadeau, for example, it isn't a choice of manufacturing in the US or China. The choice is between making *only* full custom knives or making customs *and* using Chinese OEMs for mid-tech knives.

Which I get, but once again, this is just a sidestep of something many of us are indirectly stating: when you buy American knives, made by American companies, who employ American citizens, and whose money then goes back into American communities, then the choice for many of us is simple.

I can speak only for myself when I say that frankly, I don't care who you are as a maker, if you send your designs to China, then I will either wait until I can find an actual custom of yours I can afford, or I won't buy it. Some people don't care where their products come from. Many of us on this forum aren't those people. Though, it's true (as is shown in threads like these) that many others here are. Two different philosophies.

 

[Knives&Lint]

At this price point, people are not just looking at materials and built quality

^^This, exactly!

The argument that "this knife costs $x and if it were made in America (or elsewhere other than China) it would cost $1.5-2x", doesn't apply to me as I view the hobby. Having multiple knives in the price ranges we're talking about is a luxury as I see it. I'll gladly pay more for a knife that gives me personally more enjoyment (pride of ownership for lack of a better term). I'm always doing that with my expensive purchases anyway; weighing the options of the next price tier up; and I am of the belief that if I couldn't afford a $500 knife I shouldn't be buying a $300 one either.

Perhaps I would think differently if the timing of when I got into the hobby was different, and I was still in my "MUST HAVE ALL THE KNIVES!" phase, but I'm not. At this point, there are many factors that knock a knife off of my want list, and made in China is one of them. There are many OBVIOUS reasons as to why, but the simple reason of not thinking they're cool is enough for me. Value in materials and quality do certainly factor in to my knife purchasing decisions, and I understand the logic of the argument, but logic isn't the only consideration when you're talking about something you have a passion for.

 

[OrangeBlueOrangeBlue]

I agree with you that in general Reate offers better materials and costs less. But my point is that these are not significantly enough to swing many people. At this price point, people are not just looking at materials and built quality; the fame and history of the brand can be equally important if not more.

I had/have multiples of both CRK and Hinderer, and I still put them in the same category based on their quality, material, fit & finish, ergonomics, price, and pride of ownership. I understand it is a personal opinion (RHK and CRK being in the same category) that not everyone agrees to.

I can't say this with absolute certainty, but given the frequency of Reate preorders and drops (their own stuff, plus SBD, Pena, Chaves, Liong Mah, Tashi, Begg, Varga, etc.) I think it's reasonable to infer that they move more knives than CRK does. The designers who they OEM for don't seem to have any problem selling out their runs, so I can't agree that their pricing costs them a meaningful number of sales.

If you buy knives primarily on price point only, then I suppose this argument holds water. Others however, start thinking pesky things like "Man, that $750 I just spent with CRK keeps some of my fellow Americans employed." Don't see where Reate is keeping Americans employed.

Also? There's a reason why CRKs have much better resale value than Reates do. I'm trying to put my finger on it, hold on, I'm sure it will come to me.

I'm likely a lot less price sensitive than most, so that's generally not a factor. The main factor for me is that I buy designs I like; if it interests me and I can afford it, I'll buy it. I prefer to buy new and I hate things like lotteries and nonsense like that. I'd much rather preorder and know I'll get a knife when it's done. I think I have at least one of every model Brian Nadeau has released with Reate because I like his designs. That may not support as many domestic jobs as buying a CRK, but it sure does keep Sharpbydesign in business.

As far as resale value, it depends a lot on good ol' supply and demand. I rarely sell knives, but Reate's OEM work is in relatively high demand and low supply, so the one I sold (because I had multiples of that model) went for a decent amount above what I paid for it. Another one was traded for a US-made knife plus $100 (worked out to break even at retail prices; given what the secondary prices were on the knife I got, I came out ahead). For CRK, it's the same issue (although the only CRKs that I've seen regularly sell for more than retail are the CGG variants), except the supply and demand for CRKs is much less cyclical. Either way, I got my Inkosi for 20% below retail, so I've still got that one, but CRKs are much more utilitarian than any of my Reate knives, so I don't think they're actually competitors in the sense that people actually cross-shop them.

As to the question I had answered, "why would someone pay high prices for a Reate-made knife?", it personally boils down to the fact that Reate makes really, really nice knives in designs I like.

For sure, 100% USA-made knives employ more Americans. But like I said before, US knife makers also use Chinese OEMs and that effectively employs those designers. For guys like Brian Nadeau, for example, it isn't a choice of manufacturing in the US or China. The choice is between making *only* full custom knives or making customs *and* using Chinese OEMs for mid-tech knives.

I think the lack of comparable OEMs in the US is something that is very much overlooked. Look at what happened with Millit... I don't know how much OEM work TRM/Halpern Titanium does these days, given that they can't even fill their own demand. ProTech does at least some OEM work, but I'm pretty sure it's always co-branded (e.g., Boker by ProTech) and only autos or button locks. Which basically leaves the choice you noted: make production knives using a foreign OEM or don't make them at all. At the moment, the highest quality OEM with sizable production capacity is Chinese.

 

[Boattale]

Would a Chinese made Rolex be something that thirty years from now would be a find for Antiques Roadshow? Nope. Same with their knives.

 

[c7m2p3]

Would a Chinese made Rolex be something that thirty years from now would be a find for Antiques Roadshow? Nope. Same with their knives.

Probably not. But there are a lot of people in the community that don't buy knives that way. There is a reason that Civivi and Kizer knives sell as much as they do. These aren't heirloom knives these are users.

 

[sharp_edge]

Would a Chinese made Rolex be something that thirty years from now would be a find for Antiques Roadshow? Nope. Same with their knives.

Poor analogy. A Chinese made Rolex would be a fake or counterfeit. Here we are talking about genuine knives made in China.

 

[Boattale]

Poor analogy. A Chinese made Rolex would be a fake or counterfeit. Here we are talking about genuine knives made in China.

Nah, it's just a matter of time before Rolex or some equivalent yields to the market. And if you want to keep it to just knives.... A Chinese made Buck is still a Buck. Except when it comes to present and even more so - future value.

 

[Danke42]

Would a Chinese made Rolex be something that thirty years from now would be a find for Antiques Roadshow? Nope. Same with their knives.

Well unless there is an apocalypse you won't be finding any current Rolex watches on the Antiques Road Show.

China much like McDonald's only makes what people want to buy. It's a formula to print money; and telling people what they need to buy is a dying star. A white dwarf headed for a black hole.

The good news is that there a lot of US based knife companies that are equally as good at giving people what they want and for the foreseeable future they'll also be more agile than China.

The bigger problem is the other big money manufacturing sectors that China currently has a stranglehold on.

 

[c7m2p3]

Nah, it's just a matter of time before Rolex or some equivalent yields to the market. And if you want to keep it to just knives.... A Chinese made Buck is still a Buck. Except when it comes to present and even more so - future value.

It may still be a buck but the point is that 1. not everyone (not even close to a majority) is buying knives as heirloom items. 2. people that do buy knives as heirloom items largely are not being targeted by the larger chinese companies producing knives right now. 3. the rest of people that are looking for a cutting tool in their pocket of decent quality might not be willing to shell out a lot of money.

Knives made overseas are not necessarily a bad thing for the community which I am sure a lot of people will immediately rush to their keyboards pitchfork in hand to refute.

Virtually no one looking to buy their first pocket knife goes from no knife to a CRK or Hinderer. Im sure there will be some anecdote out there but lets not pretend that is anywhere close to representative. Quality made knives that are affordable are good for the likes of CRK and other US manufacturers so long as they keep their design game strong. Someone gets a decent CRKT from overseas and within a few years they are looking to upgrade. They may go buy a Civivi or a kizer and start reading blogs like this. Before you know it they are scaling up to CRK, RHK, Olamic, etc.

This is not all that different from other products. Very few people buy a mercedes as their first car. Very few people buy a rolex as their first watch. Very few people buy a Mont Blanc as their first fountain pen. It is often some of the entry level stuff that gets people spending more money down the line on higher quality pieces more often than not made in the United States.

 

[3D Anvil]

It may still be a buck but the point is that 1. not everyone (not even close to a majority) is buying knives as heirloom items. 2. people that do buy knives as heirloom items largely are not being targeted by the larger chinese companies producing knives right now. 3. the rest of people that are looking for a cutting tool in their pocket of decent quality might not be willing to shell out a lot of money.

Knives made overseas are not necessarily a bad thing for the community which I am sure a lot of people will immediately rush to their keyboards pitchfork in hand to refute.

Virtually no one looking to buy their first pocket knife goes from no knife to a CRK or Hinderer. Im sure there will be some anecdote out there but lets not pretend that is anywhere close to representative. Quality made knives that are affordable are good for the likes of CRK and other US manufacturers so long as they keep their design game strong. Someone gets a decent CRKT from overseas and within a few years they are looking to upgrade. They may go buy a Civivi or a kizer and start reading blogs like this. Before you know it they are scaling up to CRK, RHK, Olamic, etc.

This is not all that different from other products. Very few people buy a mercedes as their first car. Very few people buy a rolex as their first watch. Very few people buy a Mont Blanc as their first fountain pen. It is often some of the entry level stuff that gets people spending more money down the line on higher quality pieces more often than not made in the United States.

So yer sayin' TwoSun is a gateway drug?

 

[c7m2p3]

So yer sayin' TwoSun is a gateway drug?

Exactly

 

[Hashishiin]

If you buy knives primarily on price point only, then I suppose this argument holds water. Others however, start thinking pesky things like "Man, that $750 I just spent with CRK keeps some of my fellow Americans employed." Don't see where Reate is keeping Americans employed.

Also? There's a reason why CRKs have much better resale value than Reates do. I'm trying to put my finger on it, hold on, I'm sure it will come to me.

I could buy Opinels for the rest of my life and be able to cut stuff just fine. I know this is not everybody, but it is descriptive of some people, and when it comes to buying knives that cost a lot of money... it is a luxury, kind of, and I am not looking to have the same steel as a Spyderco, in a Titanium framelock, for a cheaper price. I'm not out there buying REX45 and Cruwear because my life depends on it. I want to try the steels and I love the platform.
I would not be nearly as happy with one of those futuristic looking Subjugators. I feel there is more soul in a Strider or Medford giant chisel than there is in any one of these WEs.

 

[The Grendels]

I'm pretty sure that the biggest selling knives on the planet these days are still Swiss Army Knives, so Victorinox is doing very well for themselves. There are a lot of European knife companies doing strong, but some of their work is still going to Asia. The Boker model might become more common over time, where you see premium models made in Germany, intermediate models made in Argentina (Boker Arbolito, with some Made in China drift for their Arbolito non-fixed blades) and the US, European, and SE Asian made (Boker Plus, some made by Fox Knives), and with the majority of the budget knives made in China (Boker Magnum).

If I was an American, I'd be more concerned with the effect on Outdoor Borg companies like GSM buying up long established knife companies and McKnifing them. That's the kind of knife business movement that will gut US knife manufacturing more than Chinese competition ever will, leaving you with some good custom craftsman and the odd low production hold out. You could end up reduced to a position where European and Chinese companies are getting the US to make their budget knives for them if they don't put a stop to that.

 

[Danke42]

I'm pretty sure that the biggest selling knives on the planet these days are still Swiss Army Knives, so Victorinox is doing very well for themselves. There are a lot of European knife companies doing strong, but some of their work is still going to Asia. The Boker model might become more common over time, where you see premium models made in Germany, intermediate models made in Argentina (Boker Arbolito, with some Made in China drift for their Arbolito non-fixed blades) and the US, European, and SE Asian made (Boker Plus, some made by Fox Knives), and with the majority of the budget knives made in China (Boker Magnum).

If I was an American, I'd be more concerned with the effect on Outdoor Borg companies like GSM buying up long established knife companies and McKnifing them. That's the kind of knife business movement that will gut US knife manufacturing more than Chinese competition ever will, leaving you with some good custom craftsman and the odd low production hold out. You could end up reduced to a position where European and Chinese companies are getting the US to make their budget knives for them if they don't put a stop to that.

You do know Cold Steel made all their stuff overseas right?

 

[emjay]

No, because China, with good quality control, can produce a better knife at a lower cost. I don't live in the USA, so I have no need to be patriotic towards the USA. I have had a poor experience with USA made knives. Affordable USA made knives I've looked at had poor quality control compared to the Chinese knives, and the better USA made knives are so damn expensive that I can't justify the cost. I'm not worried.

 

[The Grendels]

You do know Cold Steel made all their stuff overseas right?

I see what you're saying, but SOG and Cold Steel being scooped up by GSM is just the tip of the spear. I also don't consider Cold Steel making something in Taiwan the same thing as Cold Steel making it in Mainland China. Spyderco seems to be able to have anything made anywhere without the same problems a lot of other US companies have.

 

[Murdamook]

Taiwan is not China. Let’s re-establish this point. I will buy Taiwan-produced products if they strike my fancy. Likewise, Taiwan is providing affordable OEM solutions. Just ask Andrew Demko. In fact, I bet the old Cold Steel facilities would love to work with some more US designers.

This thread assumes relations between the US and China remain as they are today, which I doubt. First, both sides of the political aisle are drifting more toward economic nationalism. It may be completely financially unfeasible to make products in China in a decade, because tariffs in place may make it extraordinarily expensive. Likewise, US manufacturing isn’t seeing a slowdown. Go look at Origin Maine. In two years they went from making Brazilian jiu jitsu gis and rash guards to leather boots, jeans, and outerwear.

Finally, there’s a pride of ownership that comes with buying heirloom items from US manufacturers. This pride extends a little to European companies and Japan as well. After all, I’d probably favor a Higonokami from Japan over one made in Idaho and a Victorinox wouldn’t be the same if it were made in Florida. But things I plan on passing down (cast iron skillets, tools, knives, watches, wallets, etc.), then I’d prefer to buy US-made. This extends to things I feel need to be completely reliable at all times. For this reason, I won’t even buy Chinese-made flashlights.