Ganzo G720-B first impressions

[pantagana23]

I see I made quite a fuss here by posting this.
My only intent was to show a new knife that was just manufactured, no matter what what its origin was.
Thought that the biggest knife encyclopedia online would be the best place.

I also have a number of Spydercos, Benchmades, Kershaws, etc... but they all have quite a bit of reviews and pictures online. This one doesn't.

 

[gosuto]

No restrictions on discussing them that I'm aware of. I think craytab was just attempting to give fair warning that these topics frequently stir up controversy (though I don't want to put words in his mouth, and I apologize if I have). I have a couple Ganzos, myself, and they're decent enough knives. The thing that keeps me from buying more is that they use some kind of uber thread locker on every single screw, making the knives essentially permanently assembled (at least the ones I have), which is a real turn off for me (I'm an unrepentant tinkerer ) . :grumpy:

I had that on my enlan el-02B, that stupid chinese white thread locker. You gotta use a lot of heat and a fresh bit to break that stupid locker

 

[craytab]

Look, I understand the value of protecting intellectual property, but if the "real" manufacturer doesn't offer a product that meets the prospective buyer's needs, is that buyer supposed to instead buy a product that doesn't meet his needs simply to support a manufacturer who has an apparent void in its product line? No, that's absurd. Order a custom knife from the "real" manufacturer with the exact design AND features of the "knock-off" and thereby have what amounts to a copy of a copy? Also absurd.

I've bought two Ganzo knives. I bought them for what they were - knives with what I considered interesting designs - unaware that they were copies of existing products. One I gifted to a friend, who wouldn't know a Ganzo from a Benchmade from a Tac-Force. The other, I kept, and when I learned that it was essentially a Benchmade copy, I tried to track down an original. Well, it had been discontinued for years and was only available (very rarely) for hundreds of dollars. I was interested in the features and design enough to spend $25 on the Ganzo, but definitely not 10 or 20 times that just for a Benchmade logo. Nope, I bought the Ganzo for what it was, not for what someone tried to convince me it was trying to be.

Does that mean Ganzo didn't copy existing designs? No, not at all, but they are combining those designs with features that weren't offered on the original product, thus filling a niche in the market - however small it may be - that at the very least separates them from counterfeiters. If someone truly wants that combination of design and features, how else would you suggest they spend their money?

So just to be clear, if a company doesn't have the features you want, you are fine with supporting theft in order to get what you want. At the end of all your legitimizing, this is what you are saying. If that is what you want to do, fine. But let us be very clear about it.

 

[rob32]

I just bought a mid-tech knife that has both a frame lock and a flipper. Nowhere do I see credit given to Chris Reeve or Kit Carson for their designs. No one seems to care unless the company in question makes cheap knives and they are located in China. At least with the Ganzo, it does not say it is something else, so it is not a counterfeit.

 

[Fuori]

Searching through the forum it seems some people get good ones and some have issues that vary. Even past them stealing designs it doesn't seem like it's worth $30. Also, how can you trust a company that is stealing designs when they tell you they are using 440C? There is no such thing as a free lunch. Again, there are lots of good quality knives in that price range, so I don't understand it. To each their own.

 

[craytab]

I just bought a mid-tech knife that has both a frame lock and a flipper. Nowhere do I see credit given to Chris Reeve or Kit Carson for their designs. No one seems to care unless the company in question makes cheap knives and they are located in China. At least with the Ganzo, it does not say it is something else, so it is not a counterfeit.

So where are the patents or licenses for those? Justify theft any way you like. I guess if it makes you feel better that is worth something, about $30 as it turns out.

 

[Hiro-kun]

So where are the patents or licenses for those? Justify theft any way you like. I guess if it makes you feel better that is worth something, about $30 as it turns out.

It is not correct to equate IP infringement with theft. IP infringement does not deprive the IP owner of the ability to use the IP. The use of the word "theft" to refer to intellectual property infringement is inflammatory and does not promote discussion. If you think that copying design elements is equivalent to taking the a knife from its owner, it would follow that you would want Ganzo's employees to face criminal prosecution for theft and consumers like patagana23 to be charged with possession of stolen goods.

 

[craytab]

It is not correct to equate IP infringement with theft. IP infringement does not deprive the IP owner of the ability to use the IP. The use of the word "theft" to refer to intellectual property infringement is inflammatory and does not promote discussion. If you think that copying design elements is equivalent to taking the a knife from its owner, it would follow that you would want Ganzo's employees to face criminal prosecution for theft and consumers like patagana23 to be charged with possession of stolen goods.

Again guys, you can justify theft any way you want. The facts are plain and simple.

Do you know why no one produces the counterfeit axis lock like ganzo does here in the states? Because they would be taken to court for patent infringement. A fancy name for theft.

Keep the justification coming though. I can keep calling you guys on it till the end of time :thumbup:

 

[Hiro-kun]

Again guys, you can justify theft any way you want. The facts are plain and simple.

Do you know why no one produces the counterfeit axis lock like ganzo does here in the states? Because they would be taken to court for patent infringement. A fancy name for theft.

Keep the justification coming though. I can keep calling you guys on it till the end of time :thumbup:

I never said that patent infringement is good. You may like to call it "theft", but American courts do not agree with you. Patent infringement is a civil matter, not a criminal one. When you keep calling it "theft" you are only inflaming emotions over this issue. This kind of rhetoric may be emotionally satisfying to you and your supporters ("They're helping thieves! Don't listen to them!"), but it does not provide a rational basis for your position.

Fear of litigation isn't the only reason that no one in the US other than Benchmade makes AXIS lock knives. Some reasons other US companies do not blatantly infringe upon the AXIS patent are:

1. The AXIS lock isn't worth paying royalty fees to use legally. There are many unpatented locks that are more than adequate.
2. The principles of the AXIS lock are almost trivial (for established companies) to duplicate without infringing patents (see Spyderco's ball-bearing lock, Gerber's Wedge Lock, Cold Steel's Ultra Lock, SOG's Arc lock).

Developing economies tend more towards copying designs because they don't have the intellectual capital or the economic capital to risk on unproven designs. I'm not saying this is right, but it seems that most economies have accepted things in the past that we now consider distasteful.

 

[craytab]

I never said that patent infringement is good. You may like to call it "theft", but American courts do not agree with you. Patent infringement is a civil matter, not a criminal one. When you keep calling it "theft" you are only inflaming emotions over this issue. This kind of rhetoric may be emotionally satisfying to you and your supporters ("They're helping thieves! Don't listen to them!"), but it does not provide a rational basis for your position.

Fear of litigation isn't the only reason that no one in the US other than Benchmade makes AXIS lock knives. Some reasons other US companies do not blatantly infringe upon the AXIS patent are:

1. The AXIS lock isn't worth paying royalty fees to use legally. There are many unpatented locks that are more than adequate.
2. The principles of the AXIS lock are almost trivial (for established companies) to duplicate without infringing patents (see Spyderco's ball-bearing lock, Gerber's Wedge Lock, Cold Steel's Ultra Lock, SOG's Arc lock).

Developing economies tend more towards copying designs because they don't have the intellectual capital or the economic capital to risk on unproven designs. I'm not saying this is right, but it seems that most economies have accepted things in the past that we now consider distasteful.

I see a lot of text justifying theft. Thanks folks, I'll be here all week.....

 

[PURPLEDC]

I see a lot of text justifying theft. Thanks folks, I'll be here all week.....

Craytab. I hate to destroy our rare streak of agreeing. But I have to ask. Have you gone in any shirogorov threads complaining about their use of the axis lock? Have you gone into any microtech threads complaining about their IP theft? I wouldnt mind the preaching if it applied to all brands.

Again guys, you can justify theft any way you want. The facts are plain and simple.

Do you know why no one produces the counterfeit axis lock like ganzo does here in the states? Because they would be taken to court for patent infringement. A fancy name for theft.

Keep the justification coming though. I can keep calling you guys on it till the end of time :thumbup:

actually US based companies simply make tiny changes to the mechanism whilst retaining the same basic principals to skirt the laws. But make no mistake they are still trying to cash in on other peoples ideas. Hell there are a lot of companies who wouldnt even use a bearing system within the public domain and instead had to give it a new name and pretend its somehow different. And in THAT case they didnt even have to pay anyone to use the IKBS system.

 

[craytab]

Craytab. I hate to destroy our rare streak of agreeing. But I have to ask. Have you gone in any shirogorov threads complaining about their use of the axis lock? Have you gone into any microtech threads complaining about their IP theft? I wouldnt mind the preaching if it applied to all brands.

No, no, we can still agree on stuff. And to answer your questions I am going to request you look at the last time you asked me these same questions.

 

[sabre cat]

Why is this such a big issue? If you don't like the knife, then don't buy one.

The knife is not a Benchmade, nor is it a LionSteel. The price point is so low that obviously Ganzo is not after the same market as Benchmade or LionSteel. If it was a direct copy or aimed at the same market as BM or LS, then I could see why people try to make a federal case over knives like this.

I would love to have someone explain why people are getting all hot and bothered over a cheap knife from China. I'm sorry, I just don't get it.

After you have used the knife for a couple of weeks, please give use a review.

 

[rob32]

Why is this such a big issue? If you don't like the knife, then don't buy one.

The knife is not a Benchmade, nor is it a LionSteel. The price point is so low that obviously Ganzo is not after the same market as Benchmade or LionSteel. If it was a direct copy or aimed at the same market as BM or LS, then I could see why people try to make a federal case over knives like this.

I would love to have someone explain why people are getting all hot and bothered over a cheap knife from China. I'm sorry, I just don't get it.

After you have used the knife for a couple of weeks, please give use a review.

The reasons people get butt-hurt over these knives is simple, they are cheap, they are made in China, and they're a ridiculous value. They look just enough like a popular brand of knives for people to be threatened by them. I have 2 Ganzo knives, one that I use for work, and another as a back-up. They are both centered dead on, have very little blade play, lock up solidly, and have really smooth action. To get a comparable knife from an American company you'd have to spend almost $100 bucks. Ganzo was $20.00. With that said, I only use them as work beater knives. I carry my Sebenza or ZT when I don't plan on abusing a blade.

 

[Inazone]

Also, how can you trust a company that is stealing designs when they tell you they are using 440C?

Personally, I don't trust most Chinese manufacturers when they state that a steel is anything other than 8Cr13MoV or something of that ilk. Hell, my wife bought me some behemoth MTech fixed blade that has most of the blade covered with text, and one side states 440C while the other states 8Cr13MoV. Maybe it's close enough for the $30 knife crowd, but I do have to wonder when I see Boker Plus, CRKT and others advertising a particular type of steel on a Chinese knife.

 

[Fuori]

Personally, I don't trust most Chinese manufacturers when they state that a steel is anything other than 8Cr13MoV or something of that ilk. Hell, my wife bought me some behemoth MTech fixed blade that has most of the blade covered with text, and one side states 440C while the other states 8Cr13MoV. Maybe it's close enough for the $30 knife crowd, but I do have to wonder when I see Boker Plus, CRKT and others advertising a particular type of steel on a Chinese knife.

You missed the point. When a company is that blatantly dishonest it shows that morals are out the window and they can't be trusted. We have no idea what kind of steel or quality they put into their products.

We get it...people don't care about anything other than saving money and getting something cheap that should be a lot more if the design wasn't being ripped off. That is the bottom line here and that's someone's right, but people need to stop trying to justify it. Just say I don't care because I'm saving money.

 

[flash900]

Personally, I don't trust most Chinese manufacturers when they state that a steel is anything other than 8Cr13MoV or something of that ilk. Hell, my wife bought me some behemoth MTech fixed blade that has most of the blade covered with text, and one side states 440C while the other states 8Cr13MoV. Maybe it's close enough for the $30 knife crowd, but I do have to wonder when I see Boker Plus, CRKT and others advertising a particular type of steel on a Chinese knife.

Agreed. And how would you ever know one way or the other?

That said, I have no problem with anyone investing in a $20 import, sorta-knockoff -- or even one of the new $200 ones that are showing up as competition for the higher end.

I do think this is a discussion for another place, and would like to hear more user comments about this folder.

 

[sabre cat]

You know, I can see a real need for a knife like this. It would made a great blade for in my CERT gear. Right next to my Vic SAK or Leatherman WAVE. That way, I my Griptillian and my Prowler do not sit in a gear bag and collect dust. Why spend a fortune on a knife that I might not ever have a need to use but still have a need for?

The knife appears to be a great combo. You get an Axis style lock and an almost FFG blade at a great price. What is not to like?

 

[PURPLEDC]

No, no, we can still agree on stuff. And to answer your questions I am going to request you look at the last time you asked me these same questions.

I know bro that is kind of the point i was trying to make. The repetitive nature of the argument. I understand your position and i dont even have a problem with you expressing it. But why go on and on even after people express that they dont see things your way. The snarky "all i see are justifications". Posts when people try and tell you their side i dont think is going to get the results you are looking for. And i will stop picking on you when i see you call out a company that resides outside china. They are a plenty.

 

[PURPLEDC]

You missed the point. When a company is that blatantly dishonest it shows that morals are out the window and they can't be trusted. We have no idea what kind of steel or quality they put into their products.

We get it...people don't care about anything other than saving money and getting something cheap that should be a lot more if the design wasn't being ripped off. That is the bottom line here and that's someone's right, but people need to stop trying to justify it. Just say I don't care because I'm saving money.

The thing no one wants to recognize is that when you fare granted a u.s. Patent it protects you within he usa. If benchmade wants to protect its axis lock in china it needs to apply and be granted a chinese patent to have any type of recourse in china. Most name brand clones are intended for the chinese market only. The websites for many of these companies cant even be found here in the states even though they exist. And from what i understand most of these knives are purchased directly from china by individuals. Now if one person decided to import a case of them and sell them in the usa on a webstore then there is something to go after.

As for 440c it is a generic term that applies to any alloy made by any conpany that falls within the parameters of 440. It is not like say a crucible steel of which only one company is allowed to use the name. Now as to how you can trust a company that steals designs? Well that argument could apply to a lot more knives than those just made on china. Design borrowing goes on all the time here in the states but i dont see anyone questioning the steel on a new microtech. Not even when they cant print the name of the steel properly on their blades. The real answer is that you cant absolutely guarantee ANY company is using the materials they are claiming sans having it tested. And it has been my experience that it doesnt matter what proof is provided the naysayers will always cry conspiracy.

At first no one believed kizer was really using s35vn. Not even when crucible confirmed they were buying the stuff. And speaking of kizer remember they were called out for supposedly stealing a custom makers designs. Only today its widely accepted that that maker was lying and it was he who was the thief and not only was he not making he knives but that it was he who soured the deal and figured everyone would belive the "merican". Unfortunately for that individual ther is no such thing as secrets in the internet age and it was shown he had prior history of doing the exact same scam a decade earlier with kit knives.