Ganzo G720-B first impressions

[Fuori]

Respectfully, all I see there is a verbose justification for them ripping off ideas. That is your personal right, but at the end of the day it all comes down to them being cheap and people wanting to save a buck. That is someone's personal right, I don't agree with it and I don't understand it with the other options in the $30 range.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Respectfully, all I see there is a verbose justification for them ripping off ideas. That is your personal right, but at the end of the day it all comes down to them being cheap and people wanting to save a buck. That is someone's personal right, I don't agree with it and I don't understand it with the other options in the $30 range.

See you guys toss around justification as if its a cuss word. Any time someone disagrees with someone ANY response given is a justification. Justification doesnt mean to defend without merit or logic. It just means as per meriam webster "a reason, fact, circumstance, or explanation that justifies or defends" as it relates to this situation. So yes my comments are justification. As for it being Verbose? I apologize. I realize this is the world of twitter feeds and instagram where "paragraphs" are also just as taboo as justification.

 

[Fuori]

OK, again, people can try to justify it (using that word again), but that doesn't make it right in my opinion. There is very little difference between that knife and the fake "ESEE Izulas" they sell on auction sites minus the fact they stamped Ganzo on it and also ripped off the lock from Benchmade. If you want to support Chinese companies who are stealing ideas go for it, that's your right, but saving a buck isn't worth it to me. To each their own.

 

[craytab]

Why is this such a big issue? If you don't like the knife, then don't buy one.

The knife is not a Benchmade, nor is it a LionSteel. The price point is so low that obviously Ganzo is not after the same market as Benchmade or LionSteel. If it was a direct copy or aimed at the same market as BM or LS, then I could see why people try to make a federal case over knives like this.

I would love to have someone explain why people are getting all hot and bothered over a cheap knife from China. I'm sorry, I just don't get it.

After you have used the knife for a couple of weeks, please give use a review.

Ah, so since it is aimed at a different market it is okay to steal a patented design. Makes perfect sense. Or wait, there's that pesky justification thing again!

The reasons people get butt-hurt over these knives is simple, they are cheap, they are made in China, and they're a ridiculous value. They look just enough like a popular brand of knives for people to be threatened by them. I have 2 Ganzo knives, one that I use for work, and another as a back-up. They are both centered dead on, have very little blade play, lock up solidly, and have really smooth action. To get a comparable knife from an American company you'd have to spend almost $100 bucks. Ganzo was $20.00. With that said, I only use them as work beater knives. I carry my Sebenza or ZT when I don't plan on abusing a blade.

Okay, so, since you don't want to actually use your Sebenza or ZT, you use that as a reason to justify supporting theft. Perfect.

BTW, the whole "people hate these knives because they are made in China" Argument is total Bull snot. Maybe just another justification?

 

[PURPLEDC]

Ah, so since it is aimed at a different market it is okay to steal a patented design. Makes perfect sense. Or wait, there's that pesky justification thing again!



Okay, so, since you don't want to actually use your Sebenza or ZT, you use that as a reason to justify supporting theft. Perfect.

BTW, the whole "people hate these knives because they are made in China" Argument is total Bull snot. Maybe just another justification?

Maybe. Or maybe people only see you in threads about chinese clone knives berating people and making snarky toddler like responses repeating the same "justification" one liner over and over and they are left puzzled. In life there are those who choose to do something about the things they want changed. And then there are those who only demonstrate their beliefs in the most convenient ways available to them. Making some question if its really the issue you care so much about or the image that comes with others believing you care that is the real motivating factor.

 

[Liquidnails]

Righteous indignation aside, I think it is a very good knife. My only complaint is that the "tit" of the locking mechanism is too far recessed in the handle, making for difficult use. The handle is also pretty chubby. Those with small hands may find it to be too big or uncomfortable.

Thanks pantagana for bringing this knife to light for those seeking some first-hand opinions on it.

 

[JasonECornu]

How many knife makers have "borrowed" designs from Randall, Lile, or Loveless?

 

[Stoli89]

Then you aren't looking at this very logically. This knife is a blatant rip off of a lionsteel and it also in fact uses Benchmade's propitiatory lock design (this is theft). When you buy the knife in the OP these are the actions you are supporting. Don't like hearing about it? Then don't "discuss it" because guess what, that is part of the discussion.

I own plenty of knives made in China. They are mostly from reputable companies like Kershaw. The Enlan EL-01 is a fantastic Chinese designed and made budget knife. To make this a China vs US production argument is interjecting emotion, and is a bit simplified, and frankly silly.

As Fuori said, there are knives in this price range made in China that don't rip any one off so blatantly. Kershaw has some great offerings of Chinese knives in this price range and you get a great company to stand behind the product. If that knock off needs warranty work, good freaking luck...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree that this knife borrows a lot from the Lionsteel design, though it's clearly not an exact visual copy. Also, the AXIS lock makes Ganzo's G720 design departures significant in operation.

As for the AXIS lock...there seem to be are a few relevant patents surrounding this particular innovation. There is one assigned to BM on Nov. 21, 1996 that appears applicable, a utility patent (US 5755035 A). Google lists it as paid and valid, so it should be in force through ~Nov. 20, 2016. Beyond the US market, there's a European patent with same priority date. I am not aware if this patent has been restrictively licensed to any third party and under what terms, if at all. I could not find any references to patents in other markets.

Conjecture:
To my understanding, the Chinese OEM (Sanrenmu, owner of the Ganzo trademark) is a contract manufacturer of BM. It seem plausible that under terms of a Contract Manufacturing agreement, SRM was able to extract a limited license (probably preventing exact copies to be sold without approval of BM AND limiting sales to certain markets (e.g. China-domestic). If this were the case, then SRM would not be in breach if it produced similar designs that did not violate the contractual definition of "exact (or copy or replica, etc)". The sticky part, in my view, is on enforcement of distribution channels. If the contract did not specify or was not sufficiently constraining to prevent leakage (sales) outside of approved markets, then again SRM might not be in breach.

As for violating the AXIS trademark...it's clear that these Chinese variants are not marketed under this brand. Therefore, technically, it appears AXIS remains exclusive to BM, irrespective of the patent.

The problem with leakage of product outside of contractually approved markets is that such networks are very difficult and costly to impede. If the Chinese OEM is not contractually compelled to enforce its distribution channels beyond first customer, it would be impossible to prevent leakage.

Bottom line...as an outsider not privy to the confidential terms of such agreements...it's difficult to claim the Chinese OEM violated IP. As of Nov.2016, the issue seems moot.

 

[flash900]

Back on track, anyone else have any actual experience with this knife?

 

[Stoli89]

Not yet.

 

[JasonECornu]

Back on track, anyone else have any actual experience with this knife?

I have one. So far no complaints.

 

[craytab]

Maybe. Or maybe people only see you in threads about chinese clone knives berating people and making snarky toddler like responses repeating the same "justification" one liner over and over and they are left puzzled. In life there are those who choose to do something about the things they want changed. And then there are those who only demonstrate their beliefs in the most convenient ways available to them. Making some question if its really the issue you care so much about or the image that comes with others believing you care that is the real motivating factor.

The old "toddler argument" argument. Nice.

And my use of Justification gets used so much because it is true and valid. Why make up with some other argument when I have correct and strong one already?

Then calling my motives into question? Claiming I care about my image? Getting a little deep don't you think? I mean, it is fine if you want to take this personal but is not a good way to argue and is certainly not very becoming.

How many knife makers have "borrowed" designs from Randall, Lile, or Loveless?

Lots. But you do realize this knife copies another company's patented lock right? A little bit different than borrowing...

 

[Inazone]

Bottom line...as an outsider not privy to the confidential terms of such agreements...it's difficult to claim the Chinese OEM violated IP. As of Nov.2016, the issue seems moot.

Granted, there is a major "if" factor here, but if Sanrenmu is manufacturing imported knives for Benchmade under license, and if there was no provision for Sanrenmu to use the Axis design in their own products, Benchmade would most likely terminate its relationship with Sanrenmu. A company of Benchmade's standing wouldn't have to tolerate IP theft from one of its manufacturing partners. So, I personally don't think anything underhanded is going on, at least not any different from throughout the knife industry regardless of country.

One of my favorite budget folders is the SOG Salute, and if I'm not mistaken, there is a Ganzo model that is identical. However, I've also heard that Ganzo (or Sanrenmu, specifically) manufactures knives for SOG in China, so again, maybe there is some leeway for them to produce similar or identical knives for the domestic market. Obviously, these Chinese brands are showing up here in the US, but are any of the sellers actual dealers? None that I've seen are.

 

[craytab]

Granted, there is a major "if" factor here, but if Sanrenmu is manufacturing imported knives for Benchmade under license, and if there was no provision for Sanrenmu to use the Axis design in their own products, Benchmade would most likely terminate its relationship with Sanrenmu. A company of Benchmade's standing wouldn't have to tolerate IP theft from one of its manufacturing partners. So, I personally don't think anything underhanded is going on, at least not any different from throughout the knife industry regardless of country.

One of my favorite budget folders is the SOG Salute, and if I'm not mistaken, there is a Ganzo model that is identical. However, I've also heard that Ganzo (or Sanrenmu, specifically) manufactures knives for SOG in China, so again, maybe there is some leeway for them to produce similar or identical knives for the domestic market. Obviously, these Chinese brands are showing up here in the US, but are any of the sellers actual dealers? None that I've seen are.

Good points.

Most of anything past what we can see with our own eyes is complete conjecture. That said, I'll indulge in some. Benchmade surely had some company in China making its red class of knives. I don't think they currently have any knife made in China but I could be wrong. And along those lines, we don't really know which Chinese company is which. SRM, Enlan, Bee, Ganzo, Navy. For all I know they are all the same. The Ganzo Axis lock looks exactly like the Enlan version. Different companies? the Same? Who knows.

Further, who makes what for whom and who came up with what first is impossible to figure out. SOG has a Rescue knife that I swear I saw show up on the market made by SRM before the SOG version did. Did they copy it? Who knows but I do figure it is made in the same factory and the SOG version just costs more, same knife. The CRKT Drifter is the same way. Same knife but if you buy it directly from Hong Kong you can get it cheaper.

The point is there is some shady stuff out there and close to no one will know the truth. What I do know is that if you buy a knife that looks exactly like a lionsteel and also has an Axis lock you are supporting the counterfeit market. Yeah, there may be no to very little recourse or penalty for doing so. Yeah it might not be against the law since the knife was not made here and there is no dealer to go after. But it is a choice you are making. People should know that. And if you want to flaunt it on a hobby forum, prepare to be called on it.

 

[rob32]

Back on track, anyone else have any actual experience with this knife?

I use this knife every day at work as a beater knife. The steel is decent, great for the price really, the black locks up solidly, and action is very smooth, and the axis lock operates flawlessly. I like the thick handle. I think it helps me keep a nice grip on the knife. I have a lot of cheap knives, and between this knife and the Enlan El-01A, I don't think you can find a better knife for under $50.00. I actually prefer the Ganzo knife over my Benchmade, without even considering the much smaller price tag.

 

[PURPLEDC]

The old "toddler argument" argument. Nice.

And my use of Justification gets used so much because it is true and valid. Why make up with some other argument when I have correct and strong one already?

Then calling my motives into question? Claiming I care about my image? Getting a little deep don't you think? I mean, it is fine if you want to take this personal but is not a good way to argue and is certainly not very becoming

Its my experience that when individuals take criticism personally its because in some way the comment is hitting home on some level whether its wanted to be admitted or not. All i am getting at is that it is one thing to pop in the thread and make your point and its another to keep repeating the same thing over and over which in this case is your favorite word justification. Of course ifptw justification. That is what ANYONE does when they defend their position. The difference here is you are never satisfied that someone acknowledges your opinion yet disagrees. You keep going and going.


My feelings are if the discussion of the knife is off limits a mod will lock it down a send it on its way. That hasnt happened and you made your position abundantly clear. We all get it, ievery thread that gets posted about a knife you feel infringes on ip theft you will speak up. Fair enough. But after that point is made for the fourth time in one thread isnt there a point where you are just badgering and not adding anything to your argument? Thats not going to get the results you want and it is NOT discussion. And yes benchmade has knives made in china under the harley davidson name as well as other names they manufacture unde. They only stopped making products sold and labeled as a benchmade in china. You are very right though. You have a right to voice your opinion. But cant we limit it to once per thread? Or at some point just agree to disagree?

Most of anything past what we can see with our own eyes is complete conjecture. That said, I'll indulge in some. Benchmade surely had some company in China making its red class of knives. I don't think they currently have any knife made in China but I could be wrong. And along those lines, we don't really know which Chinese company is which. SRM, Enlan, Bee, Ganzo, Navy. For all I know they are all the same. The Ganzo Axis lock looks exactly like the Enlan version. Different companies? the Same? Who knows.

Further, who makes what for whom and who came up with what first is impossible to figure out. SOG has a Rescue knife that I swear I saw show up on the market made by SRM before the SOG version did. Did they copy it? Who knows but I do figure it is made in the same factory and the SOG version just costs more, same knife. The CRKT Drifter is the same way. Same knife but if you buy it directly from Hong Kong you can get it cheaper.

The point is there is some shady stuff out there and close to no one will know the truth. What I do know is that if you buy a knife that looks exactly like a lionsteel and also has an Axis lock you are supporting the counterfeit market. Yeah, there may be no to very little recourse or penalty for doing so. Yeah it might not be against the law since the knife was not made here and there is no dealer to go after. But it is a choice you are making. People should know that. And if you want to flaunt it on a hobby forum, prepare to be called on it.

So wait. Hold on. You are saying that anything past what we can see is conjecture. Then its brought to your attention that some of these chinese makers might actually be able to make these knives for the chinese domestic market because they also manufacture imports for benchmade. And THEN you state that you KNOW if you buy a knife that looks loke a lionsteel but with that lock you support counterfeiting? I thought one paragraph ago anything past what you can see is conjecture? That includes any agreement benchmade has with this manufacturer. And you can say justification all you want. But the united states does not have jurisdiction over the whole globe. Us law means nothing in china. That isnt justification its fact. Just as chinese law has no impact on us. You have used law in the past to defend your position. We are both justifying our positions here.

 

[sabre cat]

Okay, so, since you don't want to actually use your Sebenza or ZT, you use that as a reason to justify supporting theft. Perfect.

BTW, the whole "people hate these knives because they are made in China" Argument is total Bull snot. Maybe just another justification?

Theft? Really? If you use that arguement, we are all guilty. If you own a Honda, you are supporting theft. Why? Honda has a history of counterfeiting BMW motorcyles. So does Harley-Davidson. Harley sold their clones to the US military. Maybe that's all right. After all, it is Uncle Sam. You be the judge next time you pass a bright, freshly waxed Hog. Toyota? They have a SUV that looks like a Subraru Forester. Or does the Forester look like the Toyota? I can't remember. All this theft can give a guy a headache.

Want something closer to home? Camillus (among others) produced a "Demo" knife for years. It can be argued that they "borrowed" the design from the Swiss. Yet, no one gives that any thought. However, if the knife in question is marketed by a Chinese company we hear all sorts of complaints of theft and/or supporting evil countries. I don't hear any heartburn about Gerber's production of what is effectively a CRKT design. Zero complaints about Kershaw's offering of what is effectively a copy of a Strider SJ75. Or how about Benchmade's use of round hole in their blades, clearly stepping on Spyderco's toes? Why is it always aimed at Chinese companies trying to bite into the US market? Never US companies that contract with Chinese manufacturers. So, yes, it does look like "people hate these knives because they are made in China" is a valid argument.

Bottom line, imported knives are here to stay. So are "borrowed" designs, Like it or not, you can't stop it. Why fight this battle when there is no way that you will ever win the war? You don't have control of your neighbor's wallet, just your own.

 

[craytab]

As long as people want to argue about this I'm game. I'll give up when everyone else does. If people don't like my opinion and don't want to hear it they can ignore me. Otherwise if you want to sign the praises of your counterfeit knife be prepared to my opinion on it.

Just because counterfeit knives are here to stay doesn't mean the hobby should lay down and take it. How in the hell does that make a bit of sense....

 

[Fuori]

I'd honestly like to know what the difference is between that Ganzo which rips off two companies and the fake ESEE Izula knives. Some don't even have the ESEE name stamped on them, so let's take those out of the equation. People are making copies without the ESEE name and selling them on the same auction site. Is that OK in everyone's mind as well?

Please explain the differences between that and the Ganzo.

 

[PURPLEDC]

As long as people want to argue about this I'm game. I'll give up when everyone else does. If people don't like my opinion and don't want to hear it they can ignore me. Otherwise if you want to sign the praises of your counterfeit knife be prepared to my opinion on it.

Just because counterfeit knives are here to stay doesn't mean the hobby should lay down and take it. How in the hell does that make a bit of sense....

Well, thats my point. You are laying down and taking it. None of the "justification" comments are making a difference. If your goal is to have something to complain about, then mission accomplished. If you actually want to do something about counterfeiting, I am afraid you arent actually "doing" anything. I can sit here and complain about things all day. That doesnt mean I am being proactive in changing those things. If you want to debate the topic then you need to debate it. If I was in a debate and I only repeated the same comment over and over its not a debate. Its more like stomping your feet because you arent getting your own way which I can only assume would be a complete ban on the discussion of such knives. Dont get me wrong man I dont care that you have the opinion that you have. It just doesnt seem like you want to debate the topic fairly and intelligently. And before you go twisting those last words you know exactly what I mean by that.

I'd honestly like to know what the difference is between that Ganzo which rips off two companies and the fake ESEE Izula knives. Some don't even have the ESEE name stamped on them, so let's take those out of the equation. People are making copies without the ESEE name and selling them on the same auction site. Is that OK in everyone's mind as well?

Please explain the differences between that and the Ganzo.

That depends on who you ask. There are some who feel its only taboo if the knife uses false logos. Others feel if its identical its taboo regardless of logos. Then there is the group of people who actually claim that knives are clones or counterfeits if they can find ANY similarities between it and any other knife no matter how far fetched the parallels being drawn are. My favorite are those who simply move the goalpost. They will say its only about laws, then when you tell them about the laws and how they dont apply they get mad. There really is no set definitions and people will constantly change their views to "justify" what they all ready claim to know as the truth. I am not a fan of when they use logos. I will still buy the knife but I try not to put them back into the wild without modification.