"gosh" Giarsun Kung - burglar! WARNING!

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Bryan J said:
I think both gosh and SaviC should be commended for being open and honest enough to provide copies of their PayPal transaction histories, as well as some other documents that help illuminate what is going on here. Having seen both transaction records, I can say that neither person has misrepresented himself whatsoever. I don't believe either is lying about anything. Every claim that has been made by each side is supported by their PayPal record. SaviC was in fact reimbursed $660 of the $1060, and this money came directly from gosh's account. However, PayPal subsequently did credit this $660 back to gosh, though it did not come out of SaviC's account. Thus, as it stands, gosh has the full $1060 he was supposed to receive for the sale of the knife, while SaviC is left with a $400 loss. SaviC is also correct that PayPal has placed some kind of limitation on gosh's account that I believe to be directly related to this case. It's possible they are waiting for additional information (such as delivery confirmation) from gosh. However, I haven't read everything (and indeed I've asked for additional information from both to help fill in gaps), and admit that a complete understanding of PayPal's position alludes me.

I should emphasize that I'm not trying to adjudicate this matter. My role is merely to discern what is going on, to distinguish fact from fiction based on the PayPal record. As stated, I'm happy to report that both sides have been truthful with regard to this. The real puzzle is: why did PayPal credit SaviC back $660 from gosh's account, but then reimburse gosh for this money? It's very odd that PayPal would pay out $660 of their own money. My suspicion is that this amount will eventually be deducted from one of the disputant's accounts. It's possible the $660 in gosh's account is frozen until he replies to PayPal's inquiries and that the 'limitation' simply refers to these frozen funds.

One thing I will say--and this is of course my personal opinion: having conversed with both members a few times, I don't believe either of them are out to screw the other or scam anybody. They both seem to be honest people and I probably wouldn't hesitate to trade or buy from either of them. I can see things from both their perspectives and understand why each is upset. It's a bad luck situation and unfortunately somebody is going to be left holding the bag unless this knife surfaces.
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Thank you Bryan. You efforts here are to be commended and i, for one, am grateful for your honest assessment.

Which brings us back to what i've been saying all along. Both members should quit with the BS and get down to communicating, finding the knife if they can and working together to solve the issue as adults.
 
Karda said:
Thank you Bryan. You efforts here are to be commended and i, for one, am grateful for your honest assessment.

Which brings us back to what i've been saying all along. Both members should quit with the BS and get down to communicating, finding the knife if they can and working together to solve the issue as adults.
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To search without possibility to find? To plunge into a nirvana?
Excuse me, but your advises are nonplus me!
 
I don't get it; it seems so simple. There is only one reason why not a single 3rd party forum member or PayPal investigator knows where this package is right at this very moment. Gosh made it this way. Gosh was told multiple times not to do this, and was even paid money not to do this, and then he went and did this. And now it's no one's fault? It's both of their faults?

How one could arrive at that conclusion is well beyond me.
 
I think it's very clear that it's impossible to find this knife. According to Savic, and what many other members have said, you need the tracking number. Now, this tracking number is not here because of Gosh's mistake. While both sides may be at fault for fudging through the customs, the fact stands that the seller agreed to these terms. However, the seller violated the agreement by shipping with an incorrect form of transport, which may, or may not have caused the package to go awry. Now, whether or not it was because of this that the knife was lost, the fact remains the seller did not do everything that was required of him. Because of this, the deal is null, and the money should go back to the buyer. Now, Paypal has given Gosh all the money back, and Savic is out 400. Gosh was the one that broke the agreement, and Savic should receive his $400 back. This is just the way I see it. Customs have nothing to do with this, because both parties agreed to this. Had Gosh shipped correctly, it would be Savic's fault had the knife not reached him. However, due to his negligence to ship the blade correctly, it is his fault.
 
KurtBiz said:
I don't get it; it seems so simple. There is only one reason why not a single 3rd party forum member or PayPal investigator knows where this package is right at this very moment. Gosh made it this way. Gosh was told multiple times not to do this, and was even paid money not to do this, and then he went and did this. And now it's no one's fault? It's both of their faults?

How one could arrive at that conclusion is well beyond me.
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I don't know, you've got one guy asking another to:

A) Falsify or at least be very vague in describing the contents of a package to customs.

B) Falsify Customs forms as to actual value of items in order to cheat (IMO) his government of duties.

C) We don't even know if you could legally import said knife into the country. All we have speaking to that is a catalog page showing them to be for sale in some store somewhere in the Ukraine, and a very vague Customs answer that they may or may not be legal. For instance here is a article on the seizer of a shipment of Buck brand hunters- http://www.customs.gov.ua/dmsu/cont...rchForum=1&searchDocarch=1&searchPublishing=1 .

Now if they're willing to seize a simple hunting knife, perhaps they are vague on butterflies also?

Until we have an official Customs opinion on whether the knife was legal or not, we should leave that matter open.

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Gosh being a nice guy, or perhaps wanting to make the sale, goes along with this. But he makes a mistake with the shipping. Ok, that is his fault.

Now we don't know if the knife is totally lost or stolen be cause of his mistake......

But we also don't know if the knife was confiscated by Customs because of that silliness with the forms, etc..... instigated mostly by Savi.

And that is why I'm somewhat sympathetic to Gosh.

To me, it's a case of two guys being sloppy and a bit hinky with their paperwork & business practices. Both are at fault, now how they divy up that blame is up to them.
 
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tltt said:
Now we don't know if the knife is totally lost or stolen be cause of his mistake......

But we also don't know if the knife was confiscated by Customs because of that silliness with the forms, etc..... instigated mostly by Savi.

And that is why I'm somewhat sympathetic to Gosh.

To me, it's a case of two guys being sloppy and a bit hinky with their paperwork & business practices. Both are at fault, now how they divy up that blame is up to them.
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There's only one thing we know about the package's disposition -- that the reason why we don't know anything else is b/c Gosh didn't get the tracking number he was paid to get. Now the guy who paid to absolutely eliminate the unknown is being punished because of the guy who, in return for this payment, absolutely ensured the unknown.

Again, I can't see how that's acceptable in anyone's book.
 
Bryan J said:
The real puzzle is: why did PayPal credit SaviC back $660 from gosh's account, but then reimburse gosh for this money? It's very odd that PayPal would pay out $660 of their own money. My suspicion is that this amount will eventually be deducted from one of the disputant's accounts. It's possible the $660 in gosh's account is frozen until he replies to PayPal's inquiries and that the 'limitation' simply refers to these frozen funds.
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It's important to remember that SaviC did not pay gosh. SaviC paid PayPal, and PayPal paid gosh. They can, and do get caught in the middle sometimes.

I once had a customer claim she never received an item I shipped to her, paid for through PayPal. This person used their credit card, and filed a dispute with the credit card company when the package was never received. While under review PayPal held the funds out of my account.
PayPal came to me and I provided them with the FedEx tracking info showing the $225 item was delivered, but not signed for (signature is not required under $250). I met my obligation under the PayPal seller protection agreement, and they returned my money.
Evidently PayPal lost the dispute with my customers credit card company because they did refund the $225 to this person.
So I kept my money, and so did the buyer.
About a month later I get an email from my customer saying that she wished she had not filed the dispute. PayPal basically "banned" her from using their service unless and until she repaid them the $225 they lost to her in the dispute, and she used PayPal allot.

That is what I think will ultimately end up happening here. One of these guys will lose his PayPal privileges over this if PayPal ends up out any money.
How gosh was able to get his money back without providing any kind of proof of delivery is a neat trick. Not sure how he did that.

A side note, if you care..
Just so you don't think I took advantage of my customer, I offered to replace the item at no cost if she would just file a police report claiming the package had been stolen off her porch. The items I sell are frequently the target of all sorts of cons and scams, and the fact that she was unwilling to do this tells me something fishy was going on. For a few hundred dollars I would report a theft, but I don't have anything to hide.
 
tltt said:
I don't know, you've got one guy asking another to:

A) Falsify or at least be very vague in describing the contents of a package to customs.

B) Falsify Customs forms as to actual value of items in order to cheat (IMO) his government of duties.

C) We don't even know if you could legally import said knife into the country. All we have speaking to that is a catalog page showing them to be for sale in some store somewhere in the Ukraine, and a very vague Customs answer that they may or may not be legal. For instance here is a article on the seizer of a shipment of Buck brand hunters- http://www.customs.gov.ua/dmsu/cont...rchForum=1&searchDocarch=1&searchPublishing=1 .

Now if they're willing to seize a simple hunting knife, perhaps they are vague on butterflies also?

Until we have an official Customs opinion on whether the knife was legal or not, we should leave that matter open.

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Gosh being a nice guy, or perhaps wanting to make the sale, goes along with this. But he makes a mistake with the shipping. Ok, that is his fault.

Now we don't know if the knife is totally lost or stolen be cause of his mistake......

But we also don't know if the knife was confiscated by Customs because of that silliness with the forms, etc..... instigated mostly by Savi.

And that is why I'm somewhat sympathetic to Gosh.

To me, it's a case of two guys being sloppy and a bit hinky with their paperwork & business practices. Both are at fault, now how they divy up that blame is up to them.
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Your argument (and Karda's) is specious. The knife is lost because Gosh didnt ship it as he was supposed to. What may or may not have happened in customs is irrelevant, as is the legality of the knife in the Ukraine. To argue otherwise is just a flimsy attempt to obfuscate the issue.

Its like someone saying its not their fault they beat a guy with a baseball bat because the victim was jaywalking and might have been hit by a car anyway.

PS - Im not saying who is right or wrong in actuality. All I can do is make a judgement based on whats been presented in these 2 threads. Based on that, its impossible for any half-way logical person to argue that SaviC is in any way to blame. That a mod is attempting to do just that reflects poorly on bladeforums imo.
 
Meh.

I just look at it like this-

Savi was trying to screw Customs, Gosh screwed him un-intentionally, Customs screws them both, big whoop...... I'm both sypathetic and unsympathetic.

I just feel bad that one guy is going to take a $1000 hit, when the whole deal was screwy to begin with.
 
Justa said:
That a mod is attempting to do just that reflects poorly on bladeforums imo.
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You can just halt your horse right there. I nor bladeforums is in any way to blame for SaviC's or Gosh's lack of ethics or their mistakes.

I'm only trying to keep the armchair lawyers civil in their arguments and from railroading the situation and posing obvious questions about possibilities that have not been considered or outright dismissed by those who feel they know more than those who've already discussed this for 8 pages over several days. Your 2 cents is welcome also, but if you're going to start with the accusations again perhaps this thread has run it's course already and should be locked so that the two parties involved will quit trying to sway public opinion and solve the problem of their own doing themselves.
 
I think locking this thread is the best idea so far. I would never ship international to begin with, but would deal with Savic, but never with Gosh due to what he has posted and tried to slither out of. I have read the whole thread and that is what I conclude here. The only thing Karda has tried to do is slice off the bull and provide moderation which is obviously a pretty thankless job. Karda, "no good deed goes unpunished" applies here.
 
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Enough of this thread already. Savic, Despite this customs issue which involves legality issues of the knife etc.. I made a shipping error . You claim that you received $660 from paypal correct? If this is the case the balance now is $400 you claim I owe you? I am willing to meet you 1/2 way. If you received the knife good for you, keep the money i don't even want to hear about it. If you didn't receive it, well we both lose out, but you're only down $200. Does this offer sound fair? Either due to my mistake I'll be the one paying.
 
cj65 said:
I think locking this thread is the best idea so far. I would never ship international to begin with, but would deal with Savic, but never with Gosh due to what he has posted and tried to slither out of. I have read the whole thread and that is what I conclude here. The only thing Karda has tried to do is slice off the BS and provide moderation which is obviously a pretty thankless job. Karda, "no good deed goes unpunished" applies here.
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Cj,

I don't feel that I have tried to slither out of anything. There have been a few members who have contacted me directly, and I have been 100% open with emails and records of personal files regarding this issue. I have admitted from the beginning I made a shipping error. I also posted a photo of a customs form number which included my name as well as Andreys, which I later removed due to privacy issues. #LC288322215US. (searchable through Usps) Yet, if you or anyone feels I have wronged Savic (who had his paypal payment reversed after 3 weeks without contacting customs), your decisions not to do business with me is perfectly fine with me. After all knives are my hobby, and what I own took me time to acquire. What i've sold or traded has always been about the appreciation of the knife. It's never been about money.
 
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It seems you did little more than pull the classic act of charging for insured and signed for shipping but just posted it on the cheap to score a few buck. We see it time and time again here and now you are dealing with all that goes with it........

gosh said:
Cj,

I don't feel that I have tried to slither out of anything. There have been a few members who have contacted me directly, and I have been 100% open with emails and records of personal files regarding this issue. I have admitted from the beginning I made a shipping error. I also posted a photo of a customs form number which included my name as well as Andreys, which I later removed due to privacy issues. #LC288322215US. (searchable through Usps) Yet, if you or anyone feels I have wronged Savic (who had his paypal payment reversed after 3 weeks without contacting customs), your decisions not to do business with me is perfectly fine with me. After all knives are my hobby, and what I own took me time to acquire. What i've sold or traded has always been about the appreciation of the knife. It's never been about money.
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I suggest both you guys keep an eye out on your paypal accounts the next couple days. I highly doubt paypal is just going to gift an extra $600 to one of you.
It will probably be deducted from one of your accounts. Whose?? I guess thats the question.
 
LC288322215US If you do a search through usps. It says the package has been accepted. Strange.
 
I do have a photo taken at the post office with andreys name on the customs label. with the LC288322215US customs number.
 
https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConf...s1=LC288322215US&qtc_senddate1=&qtc_zipcode1=

If this be the package, depending on the countrys mail system, it wont show further info until it passes thru customs and is at the recieving Post office for distribution. It may or may not show at all depending on the ukraines practices
The last Intl' package i sent to australia was almost 3 weeks from the time it left US soil to the time it was trackable at the australian P.O. and then another few days to reach the recipient.

I suspect this package is either being held at customs due to a backlog or has been confiscated.

At any rate now SAviC has a number to inquire with if he wishes or Gosh can try to inquire from this end.
 
Yup,

I hate to see either of you out of even $1 in all of this mess, but you should have shipped right. I do feel sorry for both, and hope somehow customs releases the knife and everyone gets compensated.
 
Karda said:
https://tools.usps.com/go/TrackConf...s1=LC288322215US&qtc_senddate1=&qtc_zipcode1=

If this be the package, depending on the countrys mail system, it wont show further info until it passes thru customs and is at the recieving Post office for distribution. It may or may not show at all depending on the ukraines practices
The last Intl' package i sent to australia was almost 3 weeks from the time it left US soil to the time it was trackable at the australian P.O. and then another few days to reach the recipient.

I suspect this package is either being held at customs due to a backlog or has been confiscated.

At any rate now SAviC has a number to inquire with if he wishes or Gosh can try to inquire from this end.
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Be careful Karda, you are helping again, someone is gonna give you some guff for it.:D
 
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