Hawk-lock versus Axis-lock

A couple briefs reasons why: the action on the axis was ground breaking, but the hawk is even more ridiculous. Might as well be IKBS at this point. Also, it uses coil springs instead of omega springs, which should be a little more resilient. Additionally it's extremely compact. It can be fit into pretty much any existing folder design with minimum interference.
 
Artfully Martial said:
A couple briefs reasons why: the action on the axis was ground breaking, but the hawk is even more ridiculous. Might as well be IKBS at this point. Also, it uses coil springs instead of omega springs, which should be a little more resilient. Additionally it's extremely compact. It can be fit into pretty much any existing folder design with minimum interference.
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Axis still rules .... for a ton of reasons.:thumbup:
 
Axis-lock is more abundant. You don't see much folders with the hawk lock.
 
Artfully Martial said:
I think that's a reasonable conclusion, but it'd be helpful for you to suggest some of those reasons.
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Hard to fit it all in one post but to start ...... the way they clear debris and the position of the lock in relation to grip. Smoother transition on action bar ... better flickability ........
 
Sargent 666 said:
Hard to fit it all in one post but to start ...... the way they clear debris and the position of the lock in relation to grip. Smoother transition on action bar ... better flickability ........
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Hawk locks aren't exposed directly to the environment, and some of them are even sealed, so they generally don't have to worry about debris as much, although you're right insofar as if there is debris, the axis lock is to some degree self-cleaning and even when it isn't it's easy for the user to clean out.

The last part (about the position) is true in existing hawk-lock models, but I see no reason why it couldn't be moved towards the blade.

The "flickability" of the axis lock isn't as good as that of a hawk lock.
I'm not sure what you mean by smoother transition. The hawk-lock is definitely smoother because in between open and closed there is literally no contact between the tang and the lock, which can be true of an axis lock if you hold down the lock during an entire flick. But the hawk-lock, once clear of the lock (and before it locks up again in full open/closed) is totally free whether or not you're touching the lock. That's why the RAM so outperforms, say, the minigrip in a flick--obviously, it has no decent thumbstud to compare it to, but in a flick of the thumbstud or flipper, you're not depressing the lock, so the axis has some light engagement against the round part of the tang.

A couple of advantages to the axis I have noted, however, is that if there is debris or failure in the lock, because it's visible, you're much more likely to notice and be able to correct it. And in the rare case of a lock failure, you could conceivably shove a twig or something into the lock to force the bar to stay up. On a RAM (for instance), not only would you never see the problem, but you'd need tools to take it apart and correct. But again, the RAM is less likely to experience a failure due to its use of coil springs and its relatively hidden nature. The MUDD does away with the possibility of debris entirely.
 
How does the lock work if it doesn't hit the tang? ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJQggZu7ni8 I see a stud ramping up pretty quick. As it wears it will get steeper. No dirt can get into that slider bar ... hope not. Those are tiny coil springs? Definitely not as reliable as the omega. The axis has a lot more surface area to resist wear also.
 
Sargent 666 said:
Those are tiny coil springs? Definitely not as reliable as the omega.
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I highly doubt that. I had two omega springs break within just over a month of EDCing my 520 Presidio - in my experience, those omega springs are about as solid as a soup sandwich.

Honestly I found the axis to be a really overrated lock. It has die-hard fans, but I just haven't had a good experience with it. I've only owned one (520 Presidio) and I don't plan on owning a second... It seemed strong, yes, but had to be cleaned constantly because it would get gummed up by pocket lint, sand, whatever. In the short time I EDC'd it (a little over 1 month) and used it hard for some home renovations, I had both omega springs break, one after the other. It had lots of up-and down blade play straight from the box that couldn't be fixed (which I also found in other examples of axis lock knives when I handled a few at Bass Pro shops, including another Presidio and a couple Bone Collectors), and wasn't any smoother to open than most other knives I've owned. In fact it was a lot grittier than the CBBL on the Manix-2, was much more prone to fouling, and didn't seem any stronger.

I don't have much experience with the Hawk lock, but a friend of mine used to carry a black serrated RAM. She wasn't much of a knife person, and she barely ever cleaned or sharpened it. She showed it to me one time while it still had spots of dried blood and gunk all over it from camping and cleaning fish, but the thing still shot open and closed smoothly.

Not to crap on fans of the Axis lock, just sharing one man's experience with the mechanism.
 
I've owned over 100 Axis lock knives and one of them is over 10 years old with continuous carry for over five years and flicked and abused beyond belief. I've never seen a failure and only heard of a very few. I won't take one mans opinion on that. I'm a tile setter and my knives get filled with sand constantly. Slop is rare with them ... and even with some slop they still work. The axis is a lock that still works with slop. Linerlocks, lockbacks and frame locks don't that's why it's a big deal on forums.
 
Sargent 666 said:
The axis is a lock that still works with slop. Linerlocks, lockbacks and frame locks don't that's why it's a big deal on forums.
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Really? That's strange. I don't know about lock backs, but I've used my liner locks and frame locks when they're full of anything from pocket lint to foodstuffs to dirt and sand, and they've continued to function. Except for a/o's, most knives I've used hard were at least as resistant to fouling as the axis lock I carried, some much more so.

Sargent 666 said:
I won't take one mans opinion on that
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Cool story, bro. Not sure what the point of that little rejoinder was... :rolleyes:
 
I have a Kershaw RAM as well as many axis lock knives. I like the idea of the Hawk lock, better but carry my axis lock knives over it the majority of the time, if the RAM's lock release was on the spine of the handle below the flipper I would like it alot more, but the way it is set up now it is not very lefty friendly. Also, as far as an omega spring versus a coil spring, I would think that a coil spring would win anyday as far as strength, reliability, and consistancy (over time) would go.
 
GarrettWeidman said:
Also, as far as an omega spring versus a coil spring, I would think that a coil spring would win anyday as far as strength, reliability, and consistancy (over time) would go.
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Why?

The coils are a tighter radius and there are more of them.

Aren't those coils being stretched.

How could all of those small coils be more durable than one long arc?
 
The coils are compressed when the lock is released, each coil moves a little, like dividing up the load, instead of one piece doing all the movement. I am not saying that the omega spring is weak, never had a problem with one, and probably never will, but if I had to make a bet, all my money would be on the coil spring.
 
Sargent 666 said:
Why?

The coils are a tighter radius and there are more of them.

Aren't those coils being stretched.

How could all of those small coils be more durable than one long arc?
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Would why a long arc be any more durable than a coil?

Anyway, the springs in my Benchmade wore out within the first 3 months of ownership as well, and I've seen at least two other people it's happened to. I've seen a lot of people say, "Well, I've had mine for ten years and flick it all the time and it's never broken," but that doesn't negate the fact that they broke pretty quickly for me. Besides that, they could have been made of different metal, been exposed to different environmental factors, heat treated differently, etc.

Ultimately I just wound up replacing the omega springs with two guitar strings that have lasted through far more opening than the original omega springs did in the original three months.
 
KennyB said:
Would why a long arc be any more durable than a coil?

Anyway, the springs in my Benchmade wore out within the first 3 months of ownership as well, and I've seen at least two other people it's happened to. I've seen a lot of people say, "Well, I've had mine for ten years and flick it all the time and it's never broken," but that doesn't negate the fact that they broke pretty quickly for me. Besides that, they could have been made of different metal, been exposed to different environmental factors, heat treated differently, etc.

Ultimately I just wound up replacing the omega springs with two guitar strings that have lasted through far more opening than the original omega springs did in the original three months.
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I say that normally something with a tighter bend is more likely to fail.

So why is a coil better?

Now we have two guys and their friends with axis problems ....
 
Sargent 666 said:
I say that normally something with a tighter bend is more likely to fail.

So why is a coil better?

Now we have two guys and their friends with axis problems ....
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I'm not really insinuating that coil springs are better, I just can't see how an arc spring is. There may be tighter bends in a coil spring, but there are many of them so the force is distributed amongst them. With an arc spring like on my omega springs, the force is focused on the center of the arc; that's where mine snapped.

Anyway, in my personal and humble opinion I just don't think that the metal they're using in the springs for the AXIS locks is up to snuff from what I saw with mine. I'm not a metallurgist or some guy that can guess the qualities of metal by sight and feel, but it whatever quality it was broke far faster than the nickel-plated guitar string I replaced it with, of which I bought about a 3 ft length of for $1. So I mean, I can't really say how good the metal in the Omega springs I had were, but I know they were definitely crap compared to the metal I bought for near $.33 a foot.

I mean, I don't know how much it would cost them to produce the Omega springs with better metal, or if there's a lack of QC, or what... That would just be pointless speculation on my part. All I know is that I've seen more than enough cases of them snapping for me to think they could be using some better quality metal in a lock design that depends that much on the spring.
 
KennyB said:
I'm not really insinuating that coil springs are better, I just can't see how an arc spring is. There may be tighter bends in a coil spring, but there are many of them so the force is distributed amongst them. With an arc spring like on my omega springs, the force is focused on the center of the arc; that's where mine snapped.

Anyway, in my personal and humble opinion I just don't think that the metal they're using in the springs for the AXIS locks is up to snuff from what I saw with mine. I'm not a metallurgist or some guy that can guess the qualities of metal by sight and feel, but it whatever quality it was broke far faster than the nickel-plated guitar string I replaced it with, of which I bought about a 3 ft length of for $1. So I mean, I can't really say how good the metal in the Omega springs I had were, but I know they were definitely crap compared to the metal I bought for near $.33 a foot.

I mean, I don't know how much it would cost them to produce the Omega springs with better metal, or if there's a lack of QC, or what... That would just be pointless speculation on my part. All I know is that I've seen more than enough cases of them snapping for me to think they could be using some better quality metal in a lock design that depends that much on the spring.
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Cool, I understand.:thumbup:

" but there are many of them so the force is distributed amongst them" ... I agree with that.

What would the ratio of failures that you have seen compared to the amount of axis locks made be?

I'd say a pretty dramatic ratio.
 
For the record I've had maybe 5-6 axis locks and have never had any problems.
Also, for the record, I'm a huge axis lock fan.

But empirically speaking, coil springs are more resilient than omega springs. This is probably why all the other manufacturers use them.

How does the lock work if it doesn't hit the tang?
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Your video is an excellent demonstration of how the tang has 0 contact with the locking mechanism once it's in the open (but unlocked) position even if you don't have the lock pulled down. The little cylinders that stick out of the side of the tang (the tang is basically a camshaft in hawk-locks) are the only things that touch it, and they only touch it two times--when it's nearly fully open and when it's nearly fully closed. You can get the same effect with an axis lock by holding down the lock the entire duration of a flick, but the reason the flipper in the RAM is so superior to say, the flipper in a linerlock (or an axis lock, were one to exist) is because in a flick motion using the thumbstud or a flipper, you can't disengage the lock the whole time, meaning the axis is putting pressure on the tang and creating resistance and a less smooth, slower deployment. By no means is it a BAD action--it's the 2nd best in the world. But the hawk-lock is the first.

As per the surface area debate, it's partially made irrelevant by the fact that the cam engages the lock so little when opening and closing. We'd have to do a lot of empirical testing to see which one wore out faster.

I'm sort of curious how you could have over 100 axis lock knives (something most brick and mortar shops don't accomplish for several years) and yet use them all enough to count them as examples for omega-spring reliability. I mean, maybe you have a few axis locks you've used constantly for years (as have I, with great success), but did you really use 100+ axis locks to the point where their reliability was tested?
 
There are thousands of posts on this forum raving about the axis ... how many broken springs ... ? .... makes them crap? Hardly. I understand about being bitter because of having some problems but that isn't the norm. The axis is as popular as it is for a reason.
 
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