Hawk-lock versus Axis-lock

Ah, I misread what I quoted. :eek: I thought he said Hawk and AXIS.

Let's see, with an AXIS lock you have a bar, moving on two cutouts in a liner into a slot on the tang with two Omega springs stopped by a stop pin.

With a lockback you have one rocker with one spring locking onto the tang.

I'm not getting into a pissing match with you, Josh.

If the Axis and Hawk locks are to complex for you, please avoid them
for the safety of other's around you.
 
I'm not getting into a pissing match with you, Josh.

If the Axis and Hawk locks are to complex for you, please avoid them
for the safety of other's around you.

Is there no comparison allowed?

I'm sorry, I seem to have stumbled upon a Hawk lock only thread. Perhaps you should get your own forum. You know, to avoid confusion with discussion about knives in general.
 
My cold weather knife is a G&G Hawk MUDD - the original - simply excellent tool.Bought a RAM a couple years ago - outstanding knife. Got curious about the mechanism - took it apart a few times.Wondered what would happen if I left one of the springs out when I reassembled it ? Worked perfectly. I'm not sure you could baton a RAM thru 2X4's - but for what it sells for - it works well.Gave it away as a thank you to a guy I work with (after reinstalling the redundant spring)-still going strong for him.
Just ordered probably the 7th. or 8 th. Axis lock I will have used in the last 5 or 6 years. None of these got used a lot - but so far -zero failures.
In all honesty - don't get flippin/flickin knives - in my old hands this is not a totally reliable way of ending up with a open and locked knife in my hand. It's also ostentatious and scary for some of the folks around ya. Using a well designed/executed knife is something I enjoy simply because it's a tactile pleasure on a level that only a tool user can appreciate.
 
Well if the issue is about spring longevity then it's basically a comparison between two application of the spellings in my opinion.

I personally dislike the Omega springs. I prefer the springs on the Hawk lock or the ball locks of spyderco. A spring will fail by function proportional to fatigue, deflection and etc so that's why I dislike axis locks.
 
Ive never felt a kershaw framelock or linerlock that wasn't tight from the factory. I have handled two axis locks and one of them (my new rift) has slight up and down blade play from the factory. I have never handled a hawk lock.
 
I'd like to steer this thread away from being about whether the axis lock is good or not. It's clearly one of the best locks ever made. The debate is whether, given that it is an excellent lock, is it better than the hawk lock.

I don't think there is going to be any convincing you.

Axis is:

1: -Much easier to clean. (It may not be likely to get debris in the Hawk, but it only takes once at the right time...)
2: -Just as fast, and if slower if would be not be a determinable amount. (When flipping you would be holding the bar away from the tang.)
3: -Ability to be turned into a fixed blade.
4: -Other spring material can be used to replace springs.
5: -Fully ambidextrous. (Of course a left handed person can use a hawk, but Axis is the definition of ambidextrous.)
6: -Much more prevalent and tested over time.
7: -Lock is in better placement so as not to be accidentally disengaged by user. (I don't think the argument that someone could disengage it in a fight is a valid one.)



But if and when those two locks do fail, they're done. Axis could technically work indefinitely. And you don't have to put your hand in the way of the closing blade. The axis closes much quicker and easier, something I appreciate when using it around people.

Axis vs the world!!
haha

I can be convinced. I love both and have owned three hawk-locks and at least 5 axis locks and have had great experiences on both.

1: One piece of dirt won't destroy the lock. At any rate, in some versions of the hawklock, literally no dirt can ever get in, so it's a question of easy to clean versus never needing cleaning.

2: The axis lock simply is not as fast as a RAM. It's just not. This is an empirical fact that you can go test in your nearby knife store. And not just a little fast. Fast in the sense that the human eye can barely see the transition from closed to open. Much faster than an assisted.

3: This is a good point, as I mentioned earlier in the thread.

4: This is true, but you can make a coil spring out of plastic if you want. Steel is not a required material of any spring.

5: Both knives are fully ambidextrous. The definition of ambidextrous is literally not "axis lock." We need to distinguish the concept of symmetry from being able to be used in either hand. All locks can be used in both hands equally easily, including liner locks etc. Right handed people feel like it's difficult because they're not very dextrous with their left hand, but for a nearly ambidextrous person (like myself) it's no easier in my left or my right.

6: This is a good point and a good track record must be taken into consideration.

7: On the current models, you're right, but there's nothing inherent in the hawk-lock design that forces it to be in the middle. This problem will probably be remedied in future models.

The argument that, in a struggle, the hawk lock is harder to disengage by an opponent than an axis lock is factually true. A lock exposed to the air versus a lock hidden in your hand should make this quite obvious. At any rate, it's an inductive argument, so it's impossible for it to be valid.

The hawk lock doesn't need your hand in the way and is faster than the axis lock. And like the axis lock, it has redundant springs. I wouldn't be surprised if one coil spring outlasted two omega springs though, all things being equal--but time will tell.
 
2: The axis lock simply is not as fast as a RAM. It's just not. This is an empirical fact that you can go test in your nearby knife store. And not just a little fast. Fast in the sense that the human eye can barely see the transition from closed to open. Much faster than an assisted.

Locks are not "fast." Knife openings are "fast." I can probably snap a slip joint open just as fast as an AXIS or Hawk lock equipped knife with a bit of practice.
 
Locks are not "fast." Knife openings are "fast." I can probably snap a slip joint open just as fast as an AXIS or Hawk lock equipped knife with a bit of practice.

Prove it. You do a youtube video of you with a slipjoint and I'll do one with a RAM.

That's really no challenge though. I'm a sporting man. If you're up for it, I'll put a lockback Native against your slipjoint.

Locks are, in the literal sense, not fast. But in colloquial speech they are. We might describe an engine as being "fast," but of course, an engine by itself is not fast (in the sense of MPH--no one's referring to RPM).
 
Prove it. You do a youtube video of you with a slipjoint and I'll do one with a RAM.

That's really no challenge though. I'm a sporting man. If you're up for it, I'll put a lockback Native against your slipjoint.

Locks are, in the literal sense, not fast. But in colloquial speech they are. We might describe an engine as being "fast," but of course, an engine by itself is not fast (in the sense of MPH--no one's referring to RPM).

(1) No decent camera, (2) no slip joints.

A lock doesn't make a knife fast, your technique in opening it does. Knives don't need to open fast. I have never needed to open a knife in the blink of an eye. I guess it's fun to fondle and play with, but when it comes down to actual cutting it doesn't matter.
 
Wait; is your argument that opening speed is irrelevant or that the RAM can't open faster than a slip joint?

My technique is the best I've ever seen, and anyone with a tiny amount of skill/experience can open a RAM faster than I can open an axis lock.

We don't need a decent camera, just use whatever you have, and I've got no doubt you can find a slipjoint laying around. I'll wait.
 
Wait; is your argument that opening speed is irrelevant or that the RAM can't open faster than a slip joint?

My technique is the best I've ever seen, and anyone with a tiny amount of skill/experience can open a RAM faster than I can open an axis lock.

We don't need a decent camera, just use whatever you have, and I've got no doubt you can find a slipjoint laying around. I'll wait.

I didn't say that knives with a Hawk lock can't open fast, I implied opening speed is irrelevant.
 
I can flick many knives with thumbstuds or holes open just as fast as I can open my RAM. The RAM is easy to open fast but with good technique others are just as fast. Also the ZT0500 has the same lock and isn't as fast as the RAM for most people.
 
Unless they've somehow changed the design since I handled one, the RAM is *only* as fast (maybe slightly faster) as a good axis, auto, ect, and still slower than a wave. :confused:

Maybe you've just practiced more with the RAM...?
 
am i the only one that flips their axis open with the lock held in? like i take my index and thumb, pull the axis back, and with a light wrist flick pop the blade out and release the axis as it reaches full open position... there's nothing there to hinder the flip. if its gritty, you need to lubricate your pivot. my 940 went to the beach with me all summer. no amount of sand could foul the lock. the sand that did get in there was a nuisance that was quickly remedied by a quick blow through the mechanism or by working the action a few times...

the lock itself seems nigh indestructible. i haven't tried to break it, but why would i? its preposterous to think that it'd break during any kind of use it was designed for.

i've worked my axis countless times. 0 problems with springs breaking. i've read a few accounts of omega's breaking but i can count them on 2 hands. and even then, aren't they easy to fix with a $1 guitar spring? seems like a pretty big plus to me, and even if it weren't i've seen first hand that benchmade customer service is top notch! [broke the blade using it as a screwdriver (stupid yes, but it had to be done) and they replaced it for me on warranty, no questions asked]

i loved my benchmade when i used it and i bought another one when their customer service took such great care of me. for that, i am a massive fan of the axis. its so simple, and therein lies its strength

as for speed, i can't believe anything's faster. since heresy seems to be allowable in this court, my friend loves his double action otf microtech's. he has half a dozen, and yet he's the first to admit that none of them are any faster than his 710, merely more interesting to him
 
Other knives don't open as fast. It's a common misconception based on not counting the time it takes to move your wrist in the opening. From some time "t," where t represents the initial motion of an opening, you'd count the movement of your finger on the flipper on a RAM or the movement of your wrist on, say, an axis lock. You can open an axis lock quite quickly by flicking the thumbstud, but it simply won't have the speed of the RAM--due both to the torque provided by the flipper and the lack of resistance in the hawk-lock itself.

Give me a PM when you create the slipjoint video please.
 
Unless they've somehow changed the design since I handled one, the RAM is *only* as fast (maybe slightly faster) as a good axis, auto, ect, and still slower than a wave. :confused:

Maybe you've just practiced more with the RAM...?

As an empirical, demonstrable fact, it is faster.

The wave is much slower with the knife in hand. When knife drawing as a whole is taken into account, the wave will outperform the axis or all non-fixed blade knives, but a waved hawk-lock based knife would still outperform a waved lockback knife, if only nominally.

But if we're comparing the RAM in my hand with my finger on the flipper versus a waved Delica in your pocket with your hand on the knife ready to draw, yes, the RAM's blade will be in the open and locked position faster than the wave.

No disrespect to the wave. It's just designed for a different opening situation than the ones we're talking about. Sort of how a Dodge Viper is faster than a fighter jet from a dead stop on a quarter mile drag strip--the Viper is no where near as fast, speaking generally, but in this one isolated instance it will outperform.
 
Other knives don't open as fast. It's a common misconception based on not counting the time it takes to move your wrist in the opening. From some time "t," where t represents the initial motion of an opening, you'd count the movement of your finger on the flipper on a RAM or the movement of your wrist on, say, an axis lock. You can open an axis lock quite quickly by flicking the thumbstud, but it simply won't have the speed of the RAM--due both to the torque provided by the flipper and the lack of resistance in the hawk-lock itself.

Sorry, Artful, but the difference in speed -- if it does exist -- is so minor as to be insignificant.
 
I can flick many knives with thumbstuds or holes open just as fast as I can open my RAM. The RAM is easy to open fast but with good technique others are just as fast. Also the ZT0500 has the same lock and isn't as fast as the RAM for most people.

I agree with the above.:thumbup:






In thinking about the whole subject ...

I think that we agree that neither system really is prone to failure.

The position of the mechanism on the AXIS blades is positioned in a more ideal location for most users.

Neither really have debris problems.

..... now as far as speed ... I don't think that there is really that much more resistance in an AXIS to make it a lot slower. IMO the thumb and inertia of the blade over power that resistance by a wide margin. The RAM might flick easier but how much faster is it really? I don't think much if any ... weight vs. momentum.

Then comes strength. Which one is stronger? I say the AXIS.
 
Other knives don't open as fast. It's a common misconception based on not counting the time it takes to move your wrist in the opening. From some time "t," where t represents the initial motion of an opening, you'd count the movement of your finger on the flipper on a RAM or the movement of your wrist on, say, an axis lock. You can open an axis lock quite quickly by flicking the thumbstud, but it simply won't have the speed of the RAM--due both to the torque provided by the flipper and the lack of resistance in the hawk-lock itself.

Give me a PM when you create the slipjoint video please.

I thought we were talking about locking mechanisms, not knife models.

You also don't seem to understand the whole measuring speed bit. I'll tell you what, I'll use the thumb lugs on my Umnumzaan, you use the flipper on your RAM. Fair enough? Don't fixate on your obvious and repeated misperception of my original point about a slip joint.
 
Other knives don't open as fast. It's a common misconception based on not counting the time it takes to move your wrist in the opening. From some time "t," where t represents the initial motion of an opening, you'd count the movement of your finger on the flipper on a RAM or the movement of your wrist on, say, an axis lock. You can open an axis lock quite quickly by flicking the thumbstud, but it simply won't have the speed of the RAM--due both to the torque provided by the flipper and the lack of resistance in the hawk-lock itself.

Give me a PM when you create the slipjoint video please.

I don't need to flick my wrist or change my grip from the draw ... on say my mini Bone collector. Same position as I pull it out from I can reach the hole and deploy it.

..... if I'm reading you post right.

I've found flippers more awkward from the pocket draw.
 
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