Hawk-lock versus Axis-lock

I thought we were talking about locking mechanisms, not knife models.

You also don't seem to understand the whole measuring speed bit. I'll tell you what, I'll use the thumb lugs on my Umnumzaan, you use the flipper on your RAM. Fair enough? Don't fixate on your obvious and repeated misperception of my original point about a slip joint.

Did you not say that you could open a slip joint as fast as I could open a RAM? Is that a material misconstruction of the claim?

And yes, that's absolutely fair enough. Make your youtube video by Wednesday evening, that'll probably be the next time I'm free. I'll post mine as a response.

But again, I'm a sporting guy, so I want to make it interesting. Let's put your absolute fastest manual against the known slowest to open locking knives--lockbacks--in a second series of videos. Everyone seems to be making claims about technique. So it'd be interesting to see how we stack up in knife drawing skills.
 
Did you not say that you could open a slip joint as fast as I could open a RAM? Is that a material misconstruction of the claim?

And yes, that's absolutely fair enough. Make your youtube video by Wednesday evening, that'll probably be the next time I'm free. I'll post mine as a response.

But again, I'm a sporting guy, so I want to make it interesting. Let's put your absolute fastest manual against the known slowest to open locking knives--lockbacks--in a second series of videos. Everyone seems to be making claims about technique. So it'd be interesting to see how we stack up in knife drawing skills.

I said probably with the rigjt technique, and clarified that I was implying opening speed was irrelevant.

Lock back, sure.
 
I said probably with the rigjt technique, and clarified that I was implying opening speed was irrelevant.

Lock back, sure.

The lock back is after the RAM vs any other manual comparison. Anyone could win with the RAM--it's faster than most webcams can capture. The lockback is just to make it interesting.

I'll try to do a frame by frame slowdown so we can get a good idea of the speed. It's the only way you'd have any hope of seeing the blade in transit anyway.
 
I've been meaning to do some knife tricks videos anyway. I just wish I had one of the high-speed cameras from Mythbusters so people could see my movements. There's no way it'll capture anything on my little laptop webcam.
 
I gotta say, Artfully Martial, I can't fault the Axis for being difficult or slow to open or close in any way. It's one of the very few lock mechanisms that allows you to open the blade, unlock the blade, and close it again in under a second (by depressing the lock bar and letting the blade swing into the locked position, then swinging it into the closed position), a feature that I find extremely cool. Given that I've seen videos of this opening technique being performed with both the Axis lock and the Hawk lock, it would seem that both lock mechanisms (along with the CBBL, for that matter) allow for ridiculously quick opening and closing.

It's been mentioned before, but obviously neither lock will be a bang on hit among 100% of knife users. Both have distinct advantages and disadvantages and it's up to individual users to weight them and figure out which one better suits their needs.

As for Josh K's statment that "Knives don't need to open fast", I agree. People don't really need knives to open with any great speed. In fact, knives don't need to lock, either. If you follow even a bit of proper knife safety, you really shouldn't be doing anything with your knives that would cause them to fold on you. After all, folks got by just fine with slipjoints and friction folders before the development of the lock blade knife. For that matter, knives don't really need to fold at all. Hell, think of all the thousands of years where people used non-folding cutting tools; why do we even need knives to fold? Furthermore, steel is really more of a luxury than a necessity; we could get by with bronze, copper, or iron like most ancient peoples did before the advent of steel. :D

Of course, just like most folks want something a little more convenient than a bronze dagger for their EDC, the vast majority of folks who buy high-end knives want some sort of fast/easy opening mechanism (hence why nearly every folding knife out there has a thumbstud, flipper, spyderhole, wave, nail nick, or some kind of technology that facilitates easy/fast opening), therefore the ease with which one can open a knife is a very important consideration for most folks when comparing knife mechanisms.

Like I just said, though, this is kind of moot in this context because both knives can be closed and opened as fast as anything.
 
am i the only one that flips their axis open with the lock held in? like i take my index and thumb, pull the axis back, and with a light wrist flick pop the blade out and release the axis as it reaches full open position... there's nothing there to hinder the flip. if its gritty, you need to lubricate your pivot. my 940 went to the beach with me all summer. no amount of sand could foul the lock. the sand that did get in there was a nuisance that was quickly remedied by a quick blow through the mechanism or by working the action a few times...

the lock itself seems nigh indestructible. i haven't tried to break it, but why would i? its preposterous to think that it'd break during any kind of use it was designed for.

i've worked my axis countless times. 0 problems with springs breaking. i've read a few accounts of omega's breaking but i can count them on 2 hands. and even then, aren't they easy to fix with a $1 guitar spring? seems like a pretty big plus to me, and even if it weren't i've seen first hand that benchmade customer service is top notch! [broke the blade using it as a screwdriver (stupid yes, but it had to be done) and they replaced it for me on warranty, no questions asked]

i loved my benchmade when i used it and i bought another one when their customer service took such great care of me. for that, i am a massive fan of the axis. its so simple, and therein lies its strength

as for speed, i can't believe anything's faster. since heresy seems to be allowable in this court, my friend loves his double action otf microtech's. he has half a dozen, and yet he's the first to admit that none of them are any faster than his 710, merely more interesting to him

I agree to a point, but it kind of sucks if it does happen because if you take it apart and fix it yourself you void the warranty. Might not sound like a big deal, but I wouldn't ship a good knife out without insurance so after a bit the price adds up. Now I just wonder if I ever sent it in if they'd look at my springs and then charge me for the work; but in the end I decided it was worth it to fix the things myself for $1. I just don't think that's the way it should be though; I mean if you want to talk about customer service, if the torsion bar in my Kershaw broke they'd send me a new one no questions asked.

Oh, and on the topic of speed, I think comparing the opening speed on locks is a pretty null matter. What are we talking about in all reality? Differences of hundredths of a second? I have a Kershaw with a SpeedSafe and a Benchmade with an AXIS, and I can't really tell much difference in the deployment speed. The only reason I can tell the SpeedSafe is faster is because I can't see it move at all; snaps into place without me seeing it move. Flipping the AXIS lock out with the thumbstud is almost as fast, but I can catch just a little visual fragment of it half-way through--not when I flip it out with some thrust though. Holding the lock down and flicking it out is another story entirely.

Seriously though, I have no way of measuring the differences in times but let's just say I'm a little bit of a weirdo and use to press the start and stop buttons on a stop watch as fast as I could just for fun. Fastest I ever got was .07 seconds, and all of these blade flick out much faster than that. So what's the point of even comparing them?

Besides, all the talk about deployment of speed can be effected by environmental factors like temperature, how well lubricated the knife is, how tight the pivot, and then probably the most important on non-assist/auto knives how much force is put into the opening. At the very end of the discussion, I would just say that if you want anything faster than a Hawk Lock, an AXIS lock, a SpeedSafe, or virtually any other AO or flipper knife, you should probably just get an auto or a fixed blade. Honestly though I can't really bring myself not to see my SpeedSafe as a switch blade ( I know, it's not ) since it opens much faster than actual switch blades I've seen once or twice--but once again, no telling how good of shape those were in or if they were just cheap ones, etc.

Admittedly, it would be cool to see measured on a high speed camera. Too bad there's probably not many with a high-speed camera laying around. Maybe some ingenious guy could figure out a way to set it up with a stop-watch electrically in some way.
 
1: One piece of dirt won't destroy the lock. At any rate, in some versions of the hawklock, literally no dirt can ever get in, so it's a question of easy to clean versus never needing cleaning.

2: The axis lock simply is not as fast as a RAM. It's just not. This is an empirical fact that you can go test in your nearby knife store. And not just a little fast. Fast in the sense that the human eye can barely see the transition from closed to open. Much faster than an assisted.

4: This is true, but you can make a coil spring out of plastic if you want. Steel is not a required material of any spring.

5: Both knives are fully ambidextrous. The definition of ambidextrous is literally not "axis lock." We need to distinguish the concept of symmetry from being able to be used in either hand. All locks can be used in both hands equally easily, including liner locks etc. Right handed people feel like it's difficult because they're not very dextrous with their left hand, but for a nearly ambidextrous person (like myself) it's no easier in my left or my right.

7: On the current models, you're right, but there's nothing inherent in the hawk-lock design that forces it to be in the middle. This problem will probably be remedied in future models.


The hawk lock doesn't need your hand in the way and is faster than the axis lock. And like the axis lock, it has redundant springs. I wouldn't be surprised if one coil spring outlasted two omega springs though, all things being equal--but time will tell.

1. One version of the two production versions ever made theoretically never needs cleaning.

2. I would like to see empirical evidence that indicates that the Ram is faster than an axis. When I hold back my axis lock and flip it open with my wrist it goes from closed to open faster than my eyes can determine. Also when I wedge my thumb between the thumb stud and snap it open it just becomes open. I dont see the Ram being any quicker.
Also this gentleman had a good point:
Sorry, Artful, but the difference in speed -- if it does exist -- is so minor as to be insignificant.

3. -

4. But can YOU make a coil spring that will work in the Hawk in a pinch out of anything other than a replacement KAI coil spring? Im thinking of this in terms of an end of the world kind of scenario, or if the companies went out of business. I have heard of the guitar string trick and piano wire, and other springs being used to replace and subsequently function in an Axis knife.

5. Again, the Axis is identical on either side for either a left or right hand user. You can try to say that "symmetry" is somehow different than "ambidextrous" in this setting, but I would argue that its not. Surely a left handed user can get used to using a Hawk lock, but not necessarily is every left handed user "nearly ambidextrous" like you. They dont get to use their thumb on the Hawk lock like it appears to have been intended. At this point you are arguing semantics with me.

6. -

7. To me it looks like the Hawk lock would have to be in the middle. But I am making this assumption based on the video where someone has taken it apart to show how its used. It appears that if it was moved any where else that it would function entirely differently from the Hawk on the Ram and Mudd.

I would also think that coil springs would outlast an omega spring, but Im no expert on springs. But I think the Axis still wins the longevity issue based on the fact that its so easy to come up with your own fix or replacement should one or both break.
 
Is the HAWK ambidextrous? I always see photos of the left side of the knife, which is fine, but without a look at the other side I can't tell.

With regard to that debate, I handled several BM models at the dealer's. While I can see why people love the AXIS, I found it good, but not great. The lock release is in a fiddly position for me (takes practice, of course). The action is super-smooth, on par with, say, Al Mar and Mcusta. I never got to handle any Kershaws sadly.

The Spyderco ball lock is even worse in that regard. (That said, I tried it on the Pkal, not the Manix2 that made it famous; the odd handle was a big contributing factor.) But it's equally smooth, plus the uncaged ball lock is much easier to operate, and looks way cool.
 
1. One version of the two production versions ever made theoretically never needs cleaning.

2. I would like to see empirical evidence that indicates that the Ram is faster than an axis. When I hold back my axis lock and flip it open with my wrist it goes from closed to open faster than my eyes can determine. Also when I wedge my thumb between the thumb stud and snap it open it just becomes open. I dont see the Ram being any quicker.
Also this gentleman had a good point:


3. -

4. But can YOU make a coil spring that will work in the Hawk in a pinch out of anything other than a replacement KAI coil spring? Im thinking of this in terms of an end of the world kind of scenario, or if the companies went out of business. I have heard of the guitar string trick and piano wire, and other springs being used to replace and subsequently function in an Axis knife.

5. Again, the Axis is identical on either side for either a left or right hand user. You can try to say that "symmetry" is somehow different than "ambidextrous" in this setting, but I would argue that its not. Surely a left handed user can get used to using a Hawk lock, but not necessarily is every left handed user "nearly ambidextrous" like you. They dont get to use their thumb on the Hawk lock like it appears to have been intended. At this point you are arguing semantics with me.

6. -

7. To me it looks like the Hawk lock would have to be in the middle. But I am making this assumption based on the video where someone has taken it apart to show how its used. It appears that if it was moved any where else that it would function entirely differently from the Hawk on the Ram and Mudd.

I would also think that coil springs would outlast an omega spring, but Im no expert on springs. But I think the Axis still wins the longevity issue based on the fact that its so easy to come up with your own fix or replacement should one or both break.

It's true that only one version of the two never needs cleaning, but both will need cleaning less often, and the hawk-lock design is inherently advantageous to sealed designs, compared to the axis lock.

2: I'll be happy to provide that evidence. I own many axis locks and now have had three hawk locks. The MUDD is slower (but not by much) than an axis due to the friction of the seals on the pivot, but the RAM is much faster. And requires 0 wrist movement to achieve a superior speed. I will provide a video later this week that proves it. I understand your skepticism--the axis lock was the fastest manual out for the longest time and I was also blown away by the speed. But the RAM is just head and shoulders superior in terms of speed and action.


4: No, I can't, but then, I rather doubt you'd have guitar strings on you in the field either. Nonetheless, I'll concede this point--the axis lock, in two ways, is superior for impromptu fixes: there's a variety of things that can be converted into omega springs and you can jam a twig into the lock to make it fixed. And both without tools.

5: It's not an issue of semantics. All locks are just as easy to open left handed as right handed. The fact that a left handed person might be less ambidextrous than I am is of no concern because the average left handed person will still possess superior dexterity in their left hand--so if the quasi-ambidextrous me can open it easily in my left hand, surely the fully left handed would have no trouble.

It's not symmetrical, which I take to be an aesthetic point (and aesthetics count), but yes, left handed people have no more trouble opening and closing it than they would an axis lock.

7: I started this post before I received my MUDD, so some assumptions can be corrected here. In fact, the G&GH team can move the hawklock to an easier position and the lock's position on the MUDD is absolutely perfect for my hands. However, although it's slightly harder to reach (by an opponent) than the axis lock, its repositioning does make it available for an attacker . The RAM's positioning is inferior, but the lock is obscured by your fingers so it should be much safer.

Nonetheless, this tactical advantage, I concede, is minor--I suspect very few armed confrontations both end up in a clinch/struggle AND the opponent is knowledgeable/lucky enough to think to disengage the lock on your fingers.

I think your longevity arguments/field repair arguments are reasonable and the ultimate conclusion is just going to have to come from years of experience with both locks. You're certainly correct that field repair is easier on the axis, although it appears we agree (to some degree) that the hawk lock is less likely to need repair due to its debris-resistant nature and coil spring design.

Someone brought up strength comparisons earlier. While I think both are so strong as to be irrelevant, it's certainly a factor (probably the most obvious factor) in deciding which one is superior. I haven't made up my mind on which would be stronger yet. The axis is always placed against bilateral steel liners PLUS whatever the handle is made out of. The hawk is placed against a thin steel liner-like thing, but its supported on both sides by entire centimeters of aluminum handle.

They both seem like they'd be damn near invincible in straight up strength testing.
 
This whole "I can open my folder faster than yours" sounds kinda dumb to me. Special cameras to measure the exact difference between axis, hawk, axis assist, nitrous assist, speedsafe, lockback, framelocks, slipjoints, linerlocks, thumbstuds, flippers, etc.... All of the locking systems are adequate.

If you deploy your knife often and are used to it, that should be plenty fast. Twirling a RAM around like a balisong player is a little goofy to watch.

If you want to be the ultimo RAM flipper then, well, you can have the title I don't really care for it.

If I want a fast classy folder, I'll be looking at an IKBS flipper, now those are big and fast. If you want to deploy a knife fast for tactical reasons - carry a small fixed blade. ;)
 
Just to add on; consider me old-fashioned but for me no action beats the no-ball-detent, closing-bias of a slippie or lockback ;)
 
[youtube]KmhQoc7M_nA[/youtube]

I can have a link to the original footage within an hour if someone really wants to slow it down. It my simple test (VLC slowed to a frame a second) it takes 4 frames to open. The "high motion" setting on the camera is 60 fps. 0.066 sec to open.

I didn't time the Persian, but it's not slow by any means considering I'm also keeping my thumb on the whole time and not flicking it.
 
That's fast Josh K - the Umni is faster than I thought. :thumbup:

This is what I want to get after the the first of the year if I can find one around. RJ Martin Q36 framelock with IKBS - they're crazy fast without any effort. 4" blade w/o the fancy stuff, just a more plain version. I don't really understand how they can do it but they do.

[YouTube]D64e_V36-Uk[/YouTube]
 
The RAM is not ambidextrous in lock operation. There is no equal ease when the mechanism does not have symmetry. The unlocking motion is different for each hand, and not equal in exerted effort or needed dexterity.

Any speed difference in opening will be affected by the user and the condition of the knife. It is also thoroughly specious.

A hawk-lock knife with a wave would not be effectively faster than a lockback, and most likely measurably no different, depending on the users involved. The knife is locked open when it clears the pocket, the resistance the lock provides is immaterial to the overall motion. The blade does not move alone from a point of reference, the majority of motion is in the handle and hand/arm in the entire draw. Pocket clip position/tension and handle scale texture are more important.
 
I'm wondering how close the new SOG "toothlock" is like the lock in the RAM...anyone have both?
 
Last edited:
Back
Top