Heats, solutions, carbides etc... I am back and stirring the pot

In the case of this sample it may behave in a somewhat similar fashion, cut fine but then deform when impacting something substantial. That is the difference between the two types of hardenss as it applies to knives. High scratch hardness may allow cutting of soft abrasive materials quite well, in fact it may even cut more aggressivly due to a micro-serration effect developing, but the edge may not take harder materials or serious impact forces quite as well.

Kevin,

I was reading some metallurgy resources last night, and hardness was defined as "the ability of a material to resist plastic deformation." Does "scratch hardness" fit into this definition, or is what you're describing more akin to wear resistance?

I was a political science major and physics isn't my strong suit, so I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the different physical properties and stuff. :)

Josh
 
This past week end Kevin was our instructor at the Moran School of Bladesmithing in Washington, Arkansas. He did an outstanding job and made good use of a lot of the pics that he has made in testing the heat treats of the different steels. Thanks Kevin, I appreciate it. :thumbup:
He did learn me the right words for what I do, without talking nasty. :) I did find out that I had been doing it right without knowing exactly what was happening to the steel. This was mostly due to good teachers during my early learning phase.

Ray, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you folks comming to listen to me drone on about this stuff. The more fascinated I become with this stuff the more boring a speaker I can be, the kind words I have received are very appreciated. I have gotten some contructive feedback from it that I will combine with my own observations about my style of presentation to do even better in the future when I present to a crowd.

If this sort of sharing of knowledge continues bladesmithing is going to undergo a spectacular change, in both the knowledge it posesess and the knowledge it shares. With the ABS helping in this change the same old hocus pocus and the characters that rely on public ignorance to peddle it will have to come up with better stuff or fade away. I am certain they will have a whole new bag of tricks for the next generation however;)
 
If anyone could tell me, it would help if I knew what I am looking at in the pictures above? I am also wondering how one would leave carbides in the 5160. Is this just by not allowing a sufficient soak time?


what mete said:thumbup: One can leave carbon hanging around with shorter soaks or with lower temps. In diffusive matters (moving carbon about) time = Temperature, however not in equal proportions as temperature is much, much more powerful than time. 100F higher in temp will turn minutes to seconds, 100F lower in temp could turn minutes to hours.
 
Kevin,
I have been studying Metallurgy for over 15 yrs now. My information has been very limited. I have taken a college course and learned a lot. However I have to say the last year or even the last few months i have learned so much from your explanations. This post in particular. Your boring monologues are quite informative. Please keep them up. I have changed my views thru practice and knowledge. Science applied to metallurgy is the best way to go if it is understandable.
 
Kevin,

I was reading some metallurgy resources last night, and hardness was defined as "the ability of a material to resist plastic deformation." Does "scratch hardness" fit into this definition, or is what you're describing more akin to wear resistance?

I was a political science major and physics isn't my strong suit, so I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the different physical properties and stuff. :)

Josh

It does fall more into abrasion resistance, which can be a bit complicated, however due to widely used and accepted tests, even in standard industries, it also has to be dealt with under hardness. The majority of precise standard tests that measure hardness work off from some form of deformation, but industry still uses things such as the file test and sometimes even the Moh scale on many materials so we are forced to deal with it in talking hardness as well. But it is worth noting that under the strictest definition files don't measure hardness or strength much at all.

But the file test is one of the better methods that many bladesmiths use, too many tests I have seen are the equivalent of determining the length of something by setting it on a set of scales:confused: and then telling the guys with tape measurers that they don’t need that fancy equipment since scales work better and are all that you need. Of course to complete the analogy you would then tell the tape measure boys that there measurements are wrong since your scales said it was 3.6 poun… err, I mean inches, not the 2’ and 6.75” inches those silly tapes said it was :rolleyes:

Now that is actually a good analogy since if you already have the height and the width and know the exact material, you could get within an inch of determining length by measuring the weight of the object, but if you do not have all if these other precise bits of knowledge you are just guessing and living on wishful thinking.

One can ask why we need all this metallurgy just to make knives. You see bladesmithing is a different kind of business. In industry if you have millions of dollars on the line and your heat treat can mean the difference between voluminous business or a series of lawsuits, you buy the proper equipment and then hire a guy like mete to make sure the equipment is doing it’s job for you. Detailed analysis is done on the product and the process is fined tuned so that any slob you hire on can be trained to work the gadgets even though he doesn’t know squat about metallurgy, as long as guys like mete are there to tune the process. If we want to be anything more than blind squirrels running to the highest branches to cheer about the one acorn shaped object we managed to find, we had better educate ourselves. If we are going to adhere to sole authorship shouldn’t we practice a just a little serious analysis of our process and product? Right now there is no reason for the rest of industry to view us as anything more than a curiosity or amusing throwbacks, however if bladesmiths practiced sole authorship that included that analytical knowledge, we would be a force to be reckoned with.
 
Agreed....there is a difference between "can do" and "should do".


Just about anybody can pound on a block of metal, quench it and call it a knife....and that hurts the industry.

We need established methods....and we need them disclosed.

Why are so many so secretive about their processes? I feel it is because they are unscientific.

In the science world, when a discovery is made, it is published in journals worldwide.

In the bladesmithing world, too often those successes are skewed as "trade secrets" like KFC's chicken batter recipe...*groan*...

What can be done to further bladesmithing as a science as well as an art?
 
What can be done to further bladesmithing as a science as well as an art?


Maybe, just MAYBE, somewhere down the line, there could be a recognized Certification for "Basic Bladesmithing Metalurgy" and "Advanced Bladesmithing Metalurgy" for being the graduate of an industry recognized curriculum?
Of course, we have the JS and MS certs for basically creating something with aesthetic value and increasing degrees of execution, why not then "certify" the ability to correctly administer KNOWN heat treating procedures?
 
I just skimmed this thread, and once again I'd like to see it simplified and put into “bladesmith” terminology, practical and applicable interpretation. :D

I don't want to have to run this whole thesis through my mind every time I make a knife. LOL :D

Couldn't we just say that as long as we are not overheating the steel,... it's better to give it a little extra soak time than not enough?

The file test tells us that we were in fact above critical,… but not much more. We should combine the file test with some other types of hardness testing, like vigorously chopping on a piece of seasoned hardwood, or cold cutting nails, or some such things… to get a better idea.

I mean hey! what are we making here? :D

... just stiring the pot. hee hee
 
Seriously Kevin, (if you wanna stir the pot),… what are you really trying to do here, help folks make better knives, or prove that you can walk the walk and talk the talk of a "metallurgist" better than the rest of us?

All I’m trying to do is walk the walk and talk the talk of a true "bladesmith". :D LOL
 
I dunno man, since I started all o this fancy larnin stuff my knives seem to hold edges better, polish better, and I can't break the damn things without puttin em in a vise with an ABS pipe on em

Thanks Kevin and Mete.

-Page
 
Kevin, I sympathize with where you are coming from,… but I think you have way too many “pet peeves” for your own good! Let them go! Quit worrying about everyone else, make your blades,… and just be happy!

Smash your damn computer if it helps!

Go hammer some steel!

It’s great therapy! :D

OLD SLOW HAMMER GOO
 
I dunno man, since I started all o this fancy larnin stuff my knives seem to hold edges better, polish better, and I can't break the damn things without puttin em in a vise with an ABS pipe on em

Thanks Kevin and Mete.

-Page

Learning is fine!

As Kevin has stated before, he's not into ABS "taffy knives". The only times he did it was to pass the ABS tests. It's ridicules!

The best way to test a knife is through long term field testing for the intended purpose of the knife. There are no short cuts or metallurgical facts, or theories, that will get you there quick and easy.

Just go do it!
 
...All I’m trying to do is walk the walk and talk the talk of a true "bladesmith". :D LOL

Well now I am afraid I am going to have to ask for a definition of a "true" bladesmith. I wasn't aware that there was a set job description to adhere to Tai.
 
I could be totally wrong here,... but what's this all about? Is this to help others make better knives or to "discredit" others who use different methods?

It's all good,... if it helps us individually and as a group.

I don't disagree with any of Kevin's "facts", but just want to share a different "perspective".

OLD BROKEN RECORD GOO
 
Well now I am afraid I am going to have to ask for a definition of a "true" bladesmith. I wasn't aware that there was a set job description to adhere to Tai.

It's totally subjective brother! Just be "true" to yourself and with yourself. That's all I'm asking.

Now with that said, I'll smash my computer, and go out to the shop and smash some damn steel! hee hee hee LOL :D

... I love you man!
(But not in a faggy way)

OLD BROKEN HAMMER GOO
 
Kevin, I sympathize with where you are coming from,… but I think you have way too many “pet peeves” for your own good! ...


With all due respect Tai- I am the best judge of what is good for me. And I decided long ago that the lowered expectations, and anti-enlightenment medieval thought process I was told to follow by many other better known smiths was definitely very bad for me. I looked where I was not supposed to and asked dangerous questions and found that the emperor has no clothes. Now I still see others looking for answers in that fog. My conscience forces me to at least give a shout out to them that there is clear air and light if they want to climb a bit.

"Knowledge is power", no truer words have ever been spoken, and folks who tell people to stop pursuing facts and knowledge, to settle with what they have, and not waste their time finding out more because only what they have available at this moment is practical, well that scares the hell out of me as it should anybody who has studied history.

I could be totally wrong here,... but what's this all about? Is this to help others make better knives or to "discredit" others who use different methods?

It's all good,... if it helps us individually and as a group.

I don't disagree with any of Kevin's "facts", but just want to share a different "perspective".

...

What I feel it is all about is not making better knives but revealing the facts about methods that have been given too much credit without proper scrutiny, and to challenge the proponents of those methods to finally provide some hard credible facts of their own, instead of relying on peoples willingness to accept what they are told. I have yet to tell people how to make their knives, or even say all that much about the knives that I make and how I do it. Instead I just want to talk about fact versus long held assumptions, and invite people to use the results as they see fit and to take careful note of how folks react to factual disscussion, that is an interesting observation all unto itself;).

I was a bladesmith first then I began studying metallurgy, yet I am still not a metallurgist, perhaps that makes me a bladesmith that knows a little metallurgy. I let my blades speak for me as a bladesmith, I will allow metallurgical fact to speak for itself, it has been working flawlessly since the beggining of time whether we acknowledged it or not, it doesn't need any help from oddball like me :)
 
With all due respect Tai- I am the best judge of what is good for me.

... aren't we all?

I always like your initial premise best. :)

I've never thought the following disclaimers, clarifications, elaborations, extrapolations or justifications were necessary...

I didn't really smash my computer. LOL
 
... leave the philosophical stuff to the better qualified, Kevin. LOL :D

... just messing with you BRO! :D

Hey! Maybe it's time for another round of subjective reality versus objective reality. hee hee

Let's stir this Fck'ing pot!
I'm up for it, if you are. :)

I got nothing better to do...
 
If just regurgitating facts is what you do best,... just stick with that! LOL
 
Hey!

If you want to BOOGIE,... let's fck'n BOOGIE!


Artist: Bette Midler
Album: Divine Madness
Title: Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy


He was a famous trumpet man from out chicago way.
He had a boogie style that no one else could play.
He was the top man at his craft,
But then his number came up and he was gone with the draft.
He's in the army now. he's blowin' reveille.
He's the boogie woogie bugle boy of company b.

They made him blow a bugle for his uncle sam.
It really brought him down because he could not jam.
The captain seemed to understand,
Because the next day the cap' went out and drafted the band.
And now the company jumps when he plays reveille.
He's the boogie woogie bugle boy of company b.

A root, a toot, a toodlie-a-da-toot.
He blows it eight to the bar in boogie rhythm.
He can't blow a note unless a bass and guitar
Is playin' with him.
And the company jumps when he plays reveille.
He's the boogie woogie bugle boy of company b.

He was some boogie woogie bugle boy of company b.
And when he played his boogie woogie bugle
He was busy as a busy bee.
And when he played he made the company jump eight to the bar.
He's the boogie woogie bugle boy of company b.

Andata toodliata-toodliata toot toot
He blows it eight to the bar.
He can't blow a note if a bass and guitar
Isn't with him.
And the company jumps when he plays reveille.
He's the boogie woogie bugle boy of company b.

He puts the boys to sleep with boogie every night,
And wakes 'em up the same way in the early bright.
They clap their hands and stamp their feet,
'cause they know how it goes when someone gives him a beat.
Woah, woah, he wakes 'em up when he plays reveille.
The boogie woogie bugle boy of company b.

A root, a toot, a toodli-a-da to toot toot toot
He's blowin' eight to the bar.
Yeah, he can't blow a note if a bass and guitar
Isn't, woah, with him.
And the company jumps when he plays reveille.
He's the boogie woogie bugle boy of company b
 
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