Heats, solutions, carbides etc... I am back and stirring the pot

[steelshaper]

... leave the philosophical stuff to the better qualified, Kevin. LOL

... just messing with you BRO!

Hey! Maybe it's time for another round of subjective reality versus objective reality. hee hee

Let's stir this Fck'ing pot!
I'm up for it, if you are.

I got nothing better to do...

Well Tai this is a discusion of subjective versus objective reality. There are a few reasons the subjective may not match the objective. The bigest one is ignorance. The next one is self deception and the last insanity. I believe the first two have been covered. Not so much on the last one.

I for one am sick and tired of the dishonesty in modern bussiness and our culture in genaral. Education is desparately needed all the way around.

I like to daydream of a world in wich knives are considerd tools and are not feared by so many people. I would like to be able to make the best tools, not because "I feel they are great" but because they truly are. I would also like to be respected for my time and effort. Kevin is working to make my dreams come true at least in a way. I dont worry as to why he does it, I know its not for me But I do apreciate it.

Thanks Kevin:thumbup:

And as for KFC dont tell anyone I told you but the secret is M.S.G.

 

[cden]

Hi Kevin,
Thanks for taking the time to teach and discuss. Please continue if you can.

Take care, Craig

 

[raker]

To all those that have posted here so far, most of you did not know that the class that Kevin taught was to a group of teachers. This was done to make sure that the "teachers" would be able to impart the same correct information that will enable them to make a successful blade without the years of time and equipment that a few have. In other words, re invent the wheel for every smith.
As any one that has enjoyed teaching, a lot of joy comes from successfully transferring the knowledge to your student and watching their success's. This is true whether your teaching a friend or a class full. I believe that Kevin is more than happy to show what he has learned and how he got the results. The technique and the results is what most of us are interested in. Not necessarily the photos of the microstructure. The photos are just a way of showing "what" structure we get when we do it a certain way. Some ways can cause a complete reversal of progress in attaining the best blade we can.
The methods that Kevin discussed were applicable to the Neo Tribal way of forging as well as the salt bath forms of heat treating. With the knowledge, you can use the equipment you have to acheive the results you are looking for. If not, at least you will know what you need to reach it.
Stirring the pot may not be the best description of this thread but it seems to have brought a few comments to the top. Similar to most threads on the forums, you can take what you like or need and leave the rest. If you don't understand, come back in a few years and read it again when you have learned a bit more and you will be surprised at the level of understanding you have reached.

 

[Larrin]

How about some micrographs of proper annealing technique? I believe you have posted at least one before, Kevin. Some spheorodizing techniques give greater softness but increase the overal carbide size (by continuing to ball up carbides), I would also like to see some comments and/or micrographs of that. You mentioned quenching to martensite and then using a 1250F sub-critical anneal for an hour, if you have any micrographs of that I would like to see them as well.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

This is the way I am to understand this whole game called life is played, we find something we want to do, we set our goals (hopefully high in order to give it meaning) and then we do everything in our power to realize those goals. The constant struggle to overcome any obstacle between us and that goal is what makes us grow as human beings, I never believed I was alone or even a minority in that understanding. What part does "these tools are good enough, we need no more' , “if it works don’t question it!” or “ignore any data that complicates matters” play in that scheme?

What is the danger in knowing the difference between scratch hardness and penetrative hardness? What is the threat in actually seeing the results of heating to just non-magnetic before a quench? Folks can still use that method if they wish, but why is it a problem to know what is happening?

Regurgitating facts is indeed what I prefer.:thumbup: It keeps me working in a place called reality. Facts don’t whisper insincerities in my ear, facts keep me in line, and will flatten my house of cards without any emotion should I get too cocky or ignore them. I wished I could just apply my hopes and desires to the world and have them be true, and by simply ignoring anything that doesn’t make me feel warm and fuzzy the universe would oblige me, but that would not fit into that whole strategy laid out in the first paragraph, in fact it would rob my life of anything real and worth having.


Thank you very much for the kind words and the support from the people who have chimed in with my praise, but I would like to suggest a new paradigm from the same old take sides thing on internet forums. Take those words of support for me and apply them to the information. Standing behind me is much riskier than standing behind the facts.

I was actually waiting to see some lyrics posted but I didn’t expect them so quickly. Tai I am a lousy poker player, but I would like playing with you, I would play my usual cautious game while waiting for you to start singing then I would definitely raise the bet!

But Tai after all is said and done, I must admit I like and respect your work, your knives are always inspiring. Your methods and approach to your work is refreshing and gives it a feeling that my cold logic cannot achieve at the same level in my own. I even enjoy shooting the breeze with you because your metaphysical approach is a good counterbalance to my cold logical ways. But I can’t make rhyme nor reason of your debating method and would have a hard time finding positive points in it.

P.S. Besides that, Tai, before you chimed in this thread was pretty slow and could have been on its way to the bottom of the forum, your interest generating input has sent it out to 3 pages already

 

[magneto]

Thanks Kevin for sharing your knowledge with us. :thumbup:

 

[mete]

There is no reason you can't combine the artistic with the scientific .One example comes to mind. Have you been to Chcago and seen Picasso's "Horse" ?? The original was small and of course a fine artistic creation. For the larger version in Chicago it presented structural challenges. The engineers took their computers and made the necessary corrections for a structurally sound piece. I think it's a fine piece.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

I guess I should clarify my motivations a bit, I doubt anybody has labored under the concept that I am entirely kind hearted and altruistic in my drive to share the metallurgical principles applying to our work that I do. I honestly don’t give a hoot about whether anybody, from the newest newbie to the seasoned veteran, makes better knives! The knives you make are your own. Nobody but you can make your knives “better”, and I don’t even know what “better” is to anybody but myself.

But I would ask that people try to make better conclusions if they are going to burden others with them. The first time I got a question just because I had an ABS stamp I realized that if person has an M.S. beside their name or commands a following due to name recognition, they have an absolute responsibility to put forth the effort to give good facts. How on earth somebody can look a new maker in the eye and give them the gospel, knowing it is nothing more than a wild guess, assumptions or the best sales pitch at the time, is beyond me. But you know that is just the way the world works, regardless of how I feel about it.

My microscopes and other fancy testing gadgets were not bought for making knives, I assembled my lab to provide facts that most others in the business who shoot their mouth off as much as I do don’t bother to provide. Many feel what they say should be trusted because of tradition or who they are, and facts can only get in the way. I get a twisted satisfaction out of people doubting me but finding my facts solid, it gives me hope that people are not all sheep.

So let me just say that Tai is correct, I am not here to be anybody's muse or font of free information, I am here to be a gadfly! I will not spoon feed techniques or information to a community full of people who are not motivated enough to seek the truth on their own. But I will sting the status quo every chance I get until uncomfortable questions flow at least as freely as the sales pitches. I may not be able to change the thinking of the old guard but revolutions start from the masses and move up until the old guard are no longer relevant. It is for that reason that I hand out information like cheap guns to an oppressed population.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

There is no reason you can't combine the artistic with the scientific .One example comes to mind. Have you been to Chcago and seen Picasso's "Horse" ?? The original was small and of course a fine artistic creation. For the larger version in Chicago it presented structural challenges. The engineers took their computers and made the necessary corrections for a structurally sound piece. I think it's a fine piece.

I am a Leonardo fan myself (I think cubism is a step too far in the movement set in motion by the impressionists) but we have the modern realization of Da Vinci's dream of his equine statue here in Michigan at the Meijer gardens. Leonardo could not overcome the logistics in his time to make it a reality but modern science and engineering did. I wish he could see it, if anybody thinks science and art cannot co-exist in the same body they then need to account for Leonardo DaVinci! :thumbup:

 

[Tai Goo]

Hee Hee

Just playing guys! You know I love you,... I've always loved you!

But first,... Kevin, what exactly do you mean by "hardness testing with a file"? Can you describe the process and tell us what it's for?

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

How about some micrographs of proper annealing technique? I believe you have posted at least one before, Kevin. Some spheorodizing techniques give greater softness but increase the overal carbide size (by continuing to ball up carbides), I would also like to see some comments and/or micrographs of that. You mentioned quenching to martensite and then using a 1250F sub-critical anneal for an hour, if you have any micrographs of that I would like to see them as well.

Larrin I do have some images. I will be heat treating again tomorrow, which is always a day filled with waiting. I will see what I can do.

 

[jdm61]

Ray, I can't tell you how much I appreciate you folks comming to listen to me drone on about this stuff. The more fascinated I become with this stuff the more boring a speaker I can be, the kind words I have received are very appreciated. I have gotten some contructive feedback from it that I will combine with my own observations about my style of presentation to do even better in the future when I present to a crowd.

If this sort of sharing of knowledge continues bladesmithing is going to undergo a spectacular change, in both the knowledge it posesess and the knowledge it shares. With the ABS helping in this change the same old hocus pocus and the characters that rely on public ignorance to peddle it will have to come up with better stuff or fade away. I am certain they will have a whole new bag of tricks for the next generation however

Hey Kevin.....are you going to be doing any of this brain scrambling at the Troy hammer in?

 

[fitzo]

Gadfly is good, Kevin. Slowly, progress is being made.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

But I can’t make rhyme nor reason of your debating method and would have a hard time finding positive points in it.

Amazingly (for me), I think I do get it... playing gadfly to your gadfly might be exactly what a thread like this needs, Kevin! I think it's important for those reading this not to allow the debate to polarize the issue, however. There's already enough conflict in this arena, and art and science are not mutually exclusive, but in fact one and the same (if allowed to follow through to their denominators).

I will not spoon feed techniques or information to a community full of people who are not motivated enough to seek the truth on their own. ----- It is for that reason that I hand out information like cheap guns to an oppressed population.

...interesting statement, my friend. At what point does this not stand paramount to yelling "fire" in a crowded theater? Handing out guns to the masses can sometimes lead to further degradation and oppression, unless those masses are unified behind proper leadership. Handing someone tools without giving them the knowledge of proper usage might even make them more dangerous still, especially if the group in question is "a community full of people who are not motivated enough to seek the truth on their own."
This is not to imply that you aren't working hard to teach, btw - you know I know better. Just thought I might says your own words back to you.

 

[Tai Goo]

Let's all get a hot poker and stir our quenching medium...

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Amazingly (for me), I think I do get it... playing gadfly to your gadfly might be exactly what a thread like this needs, Kevin! I think it's important for those reading this not to allow the debate to polarize the issue, however. There's already enough conflict in this arena, and art and science are not mutually exclusive, but in fact one and the same (if allowed to follow through to their denominators).



...interesting statement, my friend. At what point does this not stand paramount to yelling "fire" in a crowded theater? Handing out guns to the masses can sometimes lead to further degradation and oppression, unless those masses are unified behind proper leadership. Handing someone tools without giving them the knowledge of proper usage might even make them more dangerous still, especially if the group in question is "a community full of people who are not motivated enough to seek the truth on their own."
This is not to imply that you aren't working hard to teach, btw - you know I know better. Just thought I might says your own words back to you.

Ahh you confuse the two, I was afraid I didn't differentiate enough. The unruly masses are the ones I want to be with, I was not referring to them when I spoke of people with no motivation to find the truth. The true believers cannot be reached by facts or people who are not their chosen icons. THe fresh new faces who are still looking for any answers that sound reasonable are the future. You should know this since I didn't know one of those guys until he caught me alone at Ashokan and told me how angry he was to have all the bladesmithing books he had bought reduced to drivel in a few hours time

I have to admit to the satisfaction one recieves when they help turn that light on over somebody elses head, I guess there is some selfish motive to it. I will always be happier with the masses having more weaponry than the leaders, to me it is the epitomy of freedom. Be it Robespierre or Lennin, the masses aways seem to be able to rise to greater evils under charismatic leaders than if left to their own consciences. The average Joe just wants to be allowed to get by and live his life and do the best he can they could do this if they weren't so easily swayed by power hungry leaders.

There was another rebellion that had an armed populace who looked to a charismatic leader, and for the first time in history when unlimited power was laid at a mans feet to take in any direction he pleased, he showed what he thought was a better path and then walked away to return home. We can thank God we had George Washington, who trusted the people to do the right thing even though they were all freely armed.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Hey Kevin.....are you going to be doing any of this brain scrambling at the Troy hammer in?

I haven't got any news yet about Troy, that will be a few months yet. I have some ideas on things I would like to talk about if I am invited. I am not sure how long I can keep up the same old metallurgy lectures without them becoming old hat though

 

[mete]

Tai, back in my early days at Timken there were blind workers who did pproduction hardness tests on bearings . They used sets of hardness testing files and I assume they were very adept at determining file hardness.....Kevin, Leonardo's horse in Milano was cast in NY state and you might still be able to get small reproductions from that foundry. Was the MI horse made there too ??

 

[Sam Salvati]

Kevin:thumbup: don't change! Keep up the good work, you sure do alot of it for us and I am worlds of grateful to you for it, you have revolutionised my entire process more than once, and I am changing for the better utilising your advice, and enjoy reading your articles and posts as they are always informative and usually hilarious! incarnate! You are a representation of all that is good about the bladesmithing community.

Sam-always learning, always seeking to take my blades to the next level, never content with "good enough" artistically and metallurgically.

 

[Kevin R. Cashen]

Ray, reminds me of another group that I really must not forget, a group I never would have expected 4 or 5 years ago. That is the group of very wise old dogs who are willing to learn new tricks. Seeing that the new information age will bring any research desired to the fingertips of anyone, some of the established makers know that we all need to keep up with this wave. The ABS will not only be around, but I believe it will thrive in this new era due to its ability to recognize that only the best information will maintain widespread credibility in a community of inceasingly more sophistocated participants. I have never had a more receptive audience than the well known smiths I worked with this last weekend, they are to be applauded for actively seeking other perspectives and knowledge when they could just as easily rest on their laurels and discourage new lines of thinking.