Help me spend $1250

The inherent nature of looking at one product when there are many means you're limiting your options. :D
 
Ed Braun said:
I'll save you the trouble:
Surplus Center (www.surpluscenter.com) 115V 1hp 3400 RPM single phase: 79 (101 with shipping)
From Usanifemaker: Knifedogs 8" contact wheel, 6" drive wheel, Tracking Idler wheel, and small wheel fork (with 3 wheels) kit: 548
Gib kit: 260
Beumont platen plate and wheels: 90 bucks
Bolts: 26
1.5" square tube: 9 bucks

In due retrospect, I'd have rather ordered a different motor, something enclosed as I can overheat this smaller one without a VFD.
Click to expand...

I'd order a different motor too- because of the speed. If you go with a 6" drive wheel and a 3400 rpm motor, you're looking at a belt speed of 5338 SFPM. That's pretty damn fast for anything but roughing. If you go with a 1725 rpm motor, you'll get speed of 2708 SFPM. That's a little slow for aggressive roughing, but a much more reasonable speed for all around work. I built a couple of grinders that worked nicely enough at this speed before I got variable machines. With a sharp Blaze 36, you'll still get your hogging done plenty fast.

While I'm at it, a starter selection of 2x72 belts IMO:

5-10 Blaze 36 or 50 grit for hogging and profiling, etc.

5-10 Klingspor 312 J-flex belts each in 220 and 400 grit, for handles. These are my favorite J-flexes that I've tried, they're not too flimsy and have a light color, so don't stain light colored G10 and leather too badly. They don't last terribly long on blade steel, which leads me to...

3+ 3M Trizact CF (Gator) belts each in A65 (220) A45 (400) and maybe even A30 (600) if you like doing belt finishes. These belts last a ridiculously long time for finish grinding blades- just don't do things like grind spines lengthwise with them, it'll wear the abrasive off unevenly. Use J-flex for such tasks. When you have worn out a Blaze roughing belt, cut some 6"-ish pieces off it, fold in half, and use it to dress the gator belts (running) to remove the steel-loaded surface. They'll cut like new all over again, and this can be done many times.

Lastly, not necessary but a recommendation for a couple of specialty belts- a leather honing belt is really nice to have for sharpening. Just grind your edge up to 400-600 grit, then power strop with the leather belt loaded with green chrome rouge. It'll put a scary sharp edge on in no time. Folks like Paige and even Rick Marchand may tell you your edges won't last quite as long due to micro-overheating at the edge, I won't presume to refute that but I find they hold up well and it's a very effective method for all kinds of tools and knives.

A Scotch-brite belt is nice to have for belt finishes, too. Grinding up to 600 Gator and then going to an X-fine Scotch-brite belt gives a nice satin belt finish.
 
Salem, thanks for the belt starter guide. That simplifies things considerably. I love the gator belts on my craftsman.

Can the gib run step pulleys for variable speed?
 
I don't know if anyone's done that- the GIB is designed for direct drive, in that a c-face motor bolts right to the frame. I suppose one could modify the design to permit a shaft on bearings through the frame. Maybe you could mount a shaft on pillow blocks that would project the shaft through the center of the motor hole in the frame- just put the bearings up on riser blocks where the motor body would normally sit. This would enable you to easily retrofit a c-face 3 phase motor for direct drive whenever you get a VFD setup.

Also, the KMG clone plans at Don Fogg's site use a jack shaft from the get go...
 
Okay, the contrarian must check in ;)

About the GIB... yes, it is an inexpensive way to get a REAL grinder. But if you are going to do it right you'll almost certainly need someone to at the very least weld the upright to the base in a perfectly square 90 degrees. Failure to do so will create frustration and tracking problems that you won't know about until tou've loaded your first belt and either watched it fly off the side, or start grinding a groove in the idler adjustment block. Sure, you can do like I did and drill/tap some holes and hope for the best, but a wise man would go the other way, and get professional help with that first step. And an even WISER man would verify the squareness of the weld as soon as it was done (before ANY other work was done).

Also, you need to know what sort of platen you'll want, and that the kit only comes with part of what you need for either/both. I got the kit with both platens, even though you can only use one at a time. Neither plan comes with the angle brackets that hold the plate in place. Neither do they come with the plate that you'll use (either as the back plate or the smooth front plate). So you need to figure that into the cost (and complexity of building the kit). You already know (I hope) that you need to buy all the bolts and nuts and washers separately. The list provided on the polarbearforge site does not include what you'll need to finish the platens or mount the wheels. And yes, you'll need to source the wheels separately, and big contact wheels are expensive.

Also note that the GIB does not come with tooling arm(s), so you need to factor that into the cost. onlinemetals.com has steel and aluminum arms in 1.5" square, and you'll probably be better of getting the precut 24 inch length(s) and cutting off the excess.

Next thing the contrarian advises is not to expect that a new grinder will instantly improve your skills. Quite the contrary. Your experience on a 2 x 42 does not prepare you for using a full-on 2 x 72. It's a different beast altogether, and you need to develop new skills to use it properly. There are a LOT of options for grinding with a 2x72 that just aren't there with the fixed belt sanders. Which to use? When to use them? How to use them? Be prepared to ruin a lot of blades before you're smart enough to do things properly.

I will say this... I have found that some of the grunt work of making knives is going a lot faster. But I have not found that I can skip the grunt work because of the grinder. I've seen videos of people who make a knife entirely using the grinder. I'm not those guys. I still have to put in a lot of hand work (at present, much of it to address the problems I introduced using the grinder). Your experience may be different.

That said, yes, you should definitely get a good grinder and some serious shop lighting. Nothing says "I mean business" more than a bunch of halogens overhead buzzing at you.

One other thing... dust collection. Since installing my grinder I generate a LOT more steel dust. I have to stop every hour or so and sweep it up because I don't have a real dust collection system. You should think about investing in one.
 
Some further thoughts based on Tryppyr's valuable perspective.

Don't get tooling arms online if you can help it, or in solid stock. Go down to your local welding or steel supply, and get 10' of 1.5" square tube, heavy wall (3/16"). It's way cheaper than solid square, plenty strong, and way cheaper than having steel shipped to you. This will make several tooling arms.

He's right, having a better grinder and more options will not instantly make you a better maker. It just opens the door to that. And while some guys do make a knife with just the grinder and maybe even do it well, I find that a lot of handwork is still essential to finishing a NICE knife. I think any mastersmith or journeyman on this forum would agree.
 
Price out that belt list from Salem and make sure to include it in your budget, the belts add up fast. I hadn't given it much thought at first, but switching from my Craftsman to a 2x72 obviously means a lot of new belts, and even just buying a couple of each type to try things out before buying in larger amounts got expensive quick. I'd gotten spoiled by just having to replace belts as I used them, starting fresh, along with some specialty belts, was a nice pinch to the wallet and definitely has to be considered as part of the grinder price. They're an ongoing expense after that, but the grinder doesn't do any good if you don't have that initial supply.

I'm going to vote for better lighting FIRST, then the grinder, then better drill press. Mostly a slower press, if I remember right that 4 speed was still running pretty fast at its lowest setting. Like a lot of folks here I am constantly fighting to get sufficient light where I need it, unfortunately my shop setup is not conducive to adding a lot of light, the garage door needs to be able to move through the area the lights should go. I'd look at your shop, figure out everywhere you want light and what direction it has to come from to be helpful, then double the actual output you estimate. I have a feeling I'm going to have to build some sort of cantilevered setup for mine to keep the lights from interfering with the door. :(
 
It'll work. What you really want is one with a TEFC enclosure (Totally Enclosed Fan Cooled). This will keep grinding dust and debris out of it and extend the life of the motor. Metal dust in the windings of an electric motor is a problem just waiting to happen.
 
Ok guys, update, more questions, and responses to some of the issues raised.

And there's an EMS alarm. I will write more later. Dang work.

.....a few minutes later......
Ok, I'm back.

Will this motor work better?
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?item=10-2381&catname=electric


Salem, I like the idea of pulleys for multiple speeds. I can't afford a VFD right now, so a pulley stack is very attractive.

Greg, thank you or your contrarian views, I'd like to address them. My dad is a very very good welder, and I'm confident that he can get the base welded straight and square. In fact, I was planning on having him do that based on other research I'd done on the GIB. Will angle iron with a tempered glass platen liner work for the platen? I Was planning on just running the multiplaten on the grinder, as the large contact wheel works great for razors, and I'm never making another one of those by hand again!

As far as buying steel online vs locally, I happen to work in a very very industrial town, and I've generally made myself a bother to some of the local machine shops, so I'm sure I could source some square tubing or stock relatively cheaply. It'd be nice to have an arm for the small wheel and for the multi platen and eventually a plain 10"+ contact wheel.

I think we should all discuss the possibility of a Don Fogg KMG clone instead of a GIB. Whats the price comparison like?
 
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A lot of people like a 9" disc grinder, that would be a nice addition - but it depends on what type of knives etc you plan to make. An etcher for your name on the knife will run you $80 plus supplies and that is if you make it yourself. You may want to order $300-$500 for knife steel, then add handle materials, belts and the $1250 is gone. When I got started I way underestimated supplies, and accessories to my grinder that I "needed". Anyway, I vote build a disc grinder and get supplies and lights. If you don't need to count supplies, The GIB or any of them look great, I like my KMG for the price.
David
 
Here's the thing about square tubing versus bar stock... you'll need to have your bolts holding the platen (or contact wheels) go all the way through, with clearance for washers/spaces and nuts at the end. With solid bar stock you won't need to penetrate all the way through to have a solid anchor. This can be important if you plan to mount the contact wheel directly to the tool arm, as I did initially. To go all the way through with one nut on the end you'd need a 5 inch long bolt (2 inches for the contact wheel, half inch spacer, two washers, 1.5 inch to clear the tube, half inch for the outside nut). Longer if you wanted to put two nuts on the end to keep it from working itself loose (yes, they do that). Of course the problem is less severe when you mount the contact wheel to the multi-platen because you don't need to account for the wheel thickness.

Personally, I'd recommend solid bar stock. It really isn't that much more expensive, and it is definitely more solid.

Regarding the platen, you'll need to ask someone more knowledgeable than me. I made my platen from a discarded piece of angled steel cut to size and shape. It absolutely isn't flat enough for serious knifemakers, and I haven't yet mounted a glass/ceramic plate, so I can't speak to how it's done.

My strong advice is that you stop and price out what you're thinking of buying. If you check the Beaumont site you'll find the 10" contact wheel by itself is $308. Drives the price up pretty darn fast, and leave no change for anything else. You're looking at a $250 motor, too, and it says it draws 20 amps, which means you probably need a 30 amp line to power it (so it won't blow breakers). Now you're paying for electrical work to the shop too... unless you can do that yourself, it'll probably set you back over $200 to have it done right (to code... so you won't have an issue when trying to sell your house in the future).

I know $1250 seems like a lot when the kit itself is only $250, but I'll tell you straight up, but the time I was done building my grinder I was in for about $900++ and I used a 1amp $100 (after coupon) motor from HF and smaller contact wheels from Beaumont.

And yes, you COULD cut corners on the wheels and the tool arm... but is that really what you want to do? Will it really save enough to make a difference?

Just saying you should analyze your budget before going too nuts on the buying spree.
 
I agree with Greg's comments on the total price for the GIB. After all is said and donr, i have about $1000 into mine (I do have a 2hp DC motor with a speed control on it, though - $300 very well invested, IMHO). I made mine so that i run a 9" disc off of it as well by using a single driveshaft (drive wheel on one end, disc on other end, two pillow block bearings in between with a 2" pulley in the middle). So far it has been great, and is a HUGE improvement over my Craftsman 2 x 42". Did it make me a better grinder overnight? Nope. Did it help improve my grinds? Absolutely. But i personally think the variable speed has just as much to do with my grinds improving than the "real" grinder. That plus $200 spent on getting started with belts put me at about $300 more than what I initially budgeted to spend. One more thing to keep in mind is that unless you have access to a lot of hand tools like taps and wire guage drills, you need to account for that as well - it all adds up quickly!

Would I spend it again knowing what I know now? In a hartbeat! It really does make that much of a difference when making knives. (for me, at least!)

BTW, for the flat platen I just used a piece of 2" angle iron, with a pyroceram glass plate jb welded to it (with a small ledge welded to the bottom to support the glass). Works like a charm!
 
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I have 60 amp 240 in my shop already. :D I checked last night.

I sent the EERF grinder CAD files to my waterjet guy to check his prices on parts. The GIB and EERF are basically the same thing.

Also not out of the running is Don Fogg's grinder with jackshaft setup. I might have to call and talk to my water jet guy and ask what he could do about cutting out several square pieces for the DF grinder.


The bottom line is I have one shot to do this, and do it right. I have zero intentions to let this opportunity slip away from me. I don't NEED a grinder right this second, as I'm not going to have a whole lot of shop time until the new baby starts sleeping through the night. I have plenty of time to get this exactly right. I am so appreciative of all the guys here, I couldn't do this on my own.
 
Greg, there is absolutely nothing wrong with heavy square tubing for your tooling arm. Have you tried it? I just spent 3 hours hogging 2" wide CruForgeV at 110 Hz with my 3hp machine, and my tooling arm was solid as a rock, like it always is. And what's wrong with a 5" bolt to mount a contact wheel? Hardware stores don't carry them that long? Cutting corners.:rolleyes:

Medic- for a 10" contact wheel, you could get the Grizzly wheel and have one of your machine shop acquaintances bore it for bearings. The wheel costs like $70 I think? That and $30 to bore it and you've cut $200 off your build.

Also, online metals lists a total price of $86 for 2 solid 2ft square bars of hot rolled A36 including shipping to me, and I live less than 300 miles from them. Walking into your steel supply for 4' of 3/16" wall square tube would cost less than $20. Cha-ching, you saved another 66 bucks. I don't know how it is in Sammamish but that goes pretty far around my shop.

60A 240V in your shop already? You are set, in that case the motor you've linked to would work fine. Although if you live in an industrial city as you say, you may be able to find locally a great deal on a motor. Try salvage and recycling yards, as well as machine shops for used/salvage motors. I've found them many places.
 
You know what guys, I don't think I've ever introduced myself. My name is Brian, I'm a medic (duh right?) in a mid sized city, married with five kids (almost 16, 9, 8, 14 mos, 1 mo). Now you understand why I have one shot to get it right and why I don't get much shop time. :D

There is a motor rebuilding place up around the corner from our eastern post that I may stop in when I'm on shift again. I find that stopping by in person tends to have better effect than calling on the phone. Machine and tool guys are like knifemakers, they like to see others succeed.

Salem, which grizzly wheel is it? I don't want to pick the wrong one. Also, the GIB calls for an 8" wheel on the multi platen. Think a 10" would work?
 
Okay, I'll lay off the contrarian stuff now. I was just trying to help make sure Brian didn't get to the end of his money before he got to the end of the grinder build, or that he used all his money on the grinder build and found he had no way to plug it in (like someone recently found after buying a great HT oven).

Good luck on the build, brian. I hope it fulfills your needs.
 
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