Help me spend $1250

Ok, I think I've got it figured out how I can run step pulleys on a GIB/EERF. I got the idea from Don Fogg's grinder plans. Instead of cutting a huge hole in the main body, I could have the water jet guy cut a small 1" hole and mount a flange bearing on it. Mount another plate a few inches away and run the jackshaft there.

Another idea would be to make an "adapter plate" that bolted on to the holes where the motor should go and would hold a flange bearing, then do the other plate and the jackshaft, that way I could mount a large motor and a VFD later if I wanted.
 
I'll send you a pic of how I did it when I get home tonight. I don't have step pulleys, just a single one, but the idea is still the same.
 
tryppyr said:
Okay, I'll lay off the contrarian stuff now. I was just trying to help make sure Brian didn't get to the end of his money before he got to the end of the grinder build, or that he used all his money on the grinder build and found he had no way to plug it in (like someone recently found after buying a great HT oven).

Good luck on the build, brian. I hope it fulfills your needs.
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Greg, I hope you don't lay off the contrarian stuff. Opposing viewpoints are often the only way the truth is brought to light. Didn't make me upset at all. I've never done this before, so I need all the help I can get.

As far as having power in the shed, I still need to verify single or triple phase. How?

Also, I will hopefully get a few feet of tool arm steel given to me or sold at a very cheap cost, so I'm going with whatever they give me. :D

I am now going to sit down and do some pricing!
 
Wow, I have way too much info floating around my head. I need help sorting it out.

A GIB kit is ~$780 figuring a 3" and 8" contact wheel on mulitplaten. Add another multiplaten set up for slack belting with a 2" and 6" wheel, then you're looking at $926 ish. Adding a small wheel attachment brings the total to a hair over $1100.

That is figuring a $225 motor as well. A 1hp 1800 rpm motor will run me $175 shipped from surpluscenter. 1.5 hp is $215.

1.5" tube in 3/16" wall is $8 from a local shop for two feet. 1/4" wall is $12.50. Solid is $34 for two feet. Using square tubing and all the nuts and bolts I need is negligible. I can use general house funds for that.

Platen liner will be $16. Angle iron for the glass holder is negligible. Less than $5 locally.

Flange bearings, shaft, pulley stacks, and belt will be ~$135 from USAknifemaker, but I am fairly certain I can source them locally cheaper. That would let me retrofit to a multispeed jackshaft set up easily.


Here's where I'm stuck, and a few questions.

Which rpm motor for single speed?
1800 runs 1884 sfpm and 2826 on 4 and 6" drive wheels, respectively.
3600 runs 3768 and 5652 on the same setups.

For a variable pulley speed, which motor speed should I be looking at?

Contact wheel sizes? Which do you guys use? With the small wheel and two tool arms I'd have 3/4, 1, 1 1/4, 2, 3, 6, 8". Could substitute a 4" for any of the larger ones as well. I'd save ~$150 by not running the extra tooling arm and wheels if I didn't need it. It would be nice to have a ready to go slack belt setup though. I'd use the small wheel attachment all the time too. Just not sure if the extra wheels are worth it. If I went with one arm, I could go with a 10" wheel and a small wheel, but then I'd lose a 6" and a 2 or 3" wheel.

See why I'm confused?

Edited to fix too general of question.
 
tryppyr said:
Okay, I'll lay off the contrarian stuff now. I was just trying to help make sure Brian didn't get to the end of his money before he got to the end of the grinder build, or that he used all his money on the grinder build and found he had no way to plug it in (like someone recently found after buying a great HT oven).

Good luck on the build, brian. I hope it fulfills your needs.
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I'm sorry Greg, I feel that I was rude. Just because I think I know what I'm talking about doesn't excuse that. You took the time to contribute quite a lot to this thread, from personal experience. Way to go. Please don't mind my grumpy ass.

Brian, nice to meet you. Yes, I mean the 10" wheel, luckily Tedinatl confirmed that it works on the multiplaten.

Good idea about walking into the motor rebuilders. Bring one of your knives! That really will open a door for you sometimes.

As far as three or single phase (I think you're trying to determine what service your shed has?) It's almost certain to be single phase. If there are any normal outlets in there, or ordinary appliances/machines that run in there, it's single. If the main power supply to the shed is two hot wires or two hots and a ground, it's single. If it's three hot wires or three hots and a ground, it's triple. If there is a subpanel, likely the power in to that will just be hot wires, with the subpanel grounded. For three phase, the breakers would be triple pole. If the power is just run out from your house, it's single. If it has a drop from power lines, you may want to look into it.

I like your idea of an adapter plate for the flange bearing. It would be much easier to retro fit a direct drive later. With the frame welded together, you'd have to torch the motor hole in.

For single speed, I'd say either a 6" drive wheel with 1725 or a 4" drive wheel with 3400. Personally I'd lean toward the slower side for single. Like, If you could only have one gear in your car, what would you pick? I'd say first or second. Slower is more versatile. Maybe what will determine this is what the motor guys have a good deal on. Remember, the shaft size has to be correct for your drive wheel or the wheel will need to be bored out. If their best deal is on a 2hp 3400 motor with a shaft the right size for a 4" drive wheel, I'd say go for it.

For variable, I use a 6" drive wheel and a 1725 motor. That means it's top speed is 2826, unless I adjust the maxim frequency output of the VFD above 60 Hz, which I have. My other variable grinder runs off the same VFD, but has a 1725 motor with a 10" original Square Wheel drive wheel. I only run that one on low VFD outputs, it's not ideal but work OK.

Others prefer a 3400 rpm motor for variable. Wayne Coe I believe says that quality 3400 motors have double the contact points and are more suitable for a grinder. I think he uses a 4" drive wheel, but I could be wrong and 6" would work anyway. He makes and sells grinders and ought to know, he's a nice guy and would probably give you some very good advice if you dropped him a line about it.

Contact wheels: I shape handles with an 8 and a 1.5 mostly. A 3/4 and a 1 are handy for small finger notches and guards. I have a 3 that doesn't get used much. If you want to do integrals maybe get a 5/8 or so. I hollow grind with a 12, would prefer a 14 or 16, but would use a 10 over my 8 for sure. Razors are about the only area I can think of where hollow grinding with smaller wheels is preferable.

Just my $.02.
 
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Use the money for a vasectomy, sell the tools you have and give that money to your wife for diapers then go get some sleep...you're going to need it when that little one arrives! When you wake up, you'll realize that you had just been bewitched with a fantasy about something called knife making and can better get on with your life without it! ;):D

I'm surprised mention of this grinder hasn't come up yet...
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...grinder-to-my-belt-grinder-guide-Any-thoughts

(BTW Salem: your Prometheanknives.com website just redirected me to your band website...???)
 
Hahahaha. You are spot on Phil! The little one is a month old. I had a slow night at work last night and got five whole hours of sleep. It's the longest straight I've slept for several weeks. Lol. I know it's only temporary, and in a few months I'll be back out in the shop. Not a big deal.

Also, vasectomies are covered very well by my insurance. :D. Five is enough! After three it just becomes a passel of kids.
 
Phil, I have one from him on order, but since it hasn't arrived and I have no personal experience with it yet I'm laying low. I THINK it's a great deal and he was easy to work with about what options and tweaks to the design I wanted. The few folks who have reported back after getting theirs have had good things to say, but it's such a small sample size...

Mine's due sometime next week, or at least it's expected to ship then. So I should have at least an initial report on it by the end of the month.
 
Brian, don't forget to factor in an idler wheel, and spring for tensioning the arm. I also didn't see the price of the drive wheel(s) factored in, so don't forget that.

I used a 1725 RPM motor with a 6" drive wheel, which works fine. If you're using pulleys to vary the speed, you don't necessarily care which drive wheel you get. I chose 6" solely because 4" was sold out at the time.

- Greg
 
Remy, that's exactly my feeling about the Pheer grinders. I think they are a great deal, and it sounds like they work well, but I'm not quite unreservedly recommending them to anyone just yet. I just throw them out there as an option. I did get an email from him that he's redesigning them for even better tracking, and all aluminum wheels...
 
$780 figures in 8", 3", idler, frame, $225 worth of motor, and 4" drive wheel.

The Pheer does look like a great deal, especially when you figure in $50-75 for extra tools and several nights/weekends working in the damn thing putting it together...........that Pheer is looking better and better. Maybe I should look into it. It seems the GIB would be better just because of weight, but who really knows. Like Remy said, the sample size is so small right now.
 
The one thing that really surprized me when I built my GIB, was the amount of smaller costs on the GIB which no-one mentioned. Depending on what route you go, it might work out to more that $50 to $75. I went with all stainless fasteners, which made it more epensive. Also, remember that you have to factor in some bolts for the wheels, and well as an tracking adjustment knob and a tooling arm locking bolt/handle (or two, if you also plan on building a tool rest), and then the tensioning spring as Greg mentioned. Also add in a few taps and matching drills (at $10 to $20 a pop - I had to get 4 (3 sizes and one broke)), tapping fluid, a tap handle and some primer and paint, and you're probably close to $150, if not more.

I have no knowledge of the Pheer apart fromt he little bit tha tI've read, and the good reviews that the (few) users have posted. All-in-all I do like my GIB a lot, and I think it is great bang for your buck!
 
Great, now you've put the idea of using stainless steel hardware into my head. I didn't need that. Lol.

If I have my dad bring up his tap set one time when he comes, I can use his taps and handles, which would save me the bulk of the incidentals cost. Paint and primer.....well, it'd be really nice powder coated wouldn't it? I thought one of my buddies powder coats, but I'd have to remember which one and then track him down.

It is true about the incidentals though. It seems like I go over budget on most projects because of them. You'd think I'd learn.
 
It's hard to accurately forecast all of the incidental costs on a project like this. There are a lot of things that are going to be specific to YOUR choices for the build. All we can do is offer some tips based on what we've seen/done.

In my case the handle was an object I already had. A much simpler handle could be fashioned from a piece of wood and a bolt.

I was struck by how much I had to pay for nuts and bolts and such. I mentioned the 5" long bolts because they tend to be pretty spendy. Some of the bolts I bought were over $4 each... but to be honest, I probably could have found a cheaper source, I just didn't. By the way, if you're curious, the $4 one was the bolt with the plastic handle used to allow me to adjust the angle of the platen. I wanted something that didn't require a tool to move, so I spent the $4.29 for the one Ace offered. I bought two others like it (one for the other platen I have, and one for some other purpose).

I also ended up buying some bolts that had wingnut heads attached... these were used for securing the tooling arm(s) in place, again so I would not need tools to move the arms in and out. Glad I made that call, and those were a lot cheaper than the $4 plastic handled ones.

And you'll need a power cable and plug. Sounds like you'll want the 220v 30A rated plug and appropriate wire.

Sorry, sorry... I seem to be doing the contrarian thing again. I just can't help myself.

Anyway, part of the fun of building the grinder is making it YOUR grinder with these little choices.
 
Nah Greg, no reason to be sorry. My family calls it being honest.

We have a chain of stores here in the Midwest called Rural King. They have nuts and bolts by the pound, whereas my Ace Hardware has nuts and bolts by the each. The difference on even a small amount of hardware is staggering. I go to Ace more often just because it's on the south side of town and easier to get to, but for something like this, it's going to pay to shop around.

Those bolt handle things sound interesting. I am all for paying a bit more up front to make it easier every single time you use the grinder.

Forgot about the power cable and plug. My 240 outlet is across the room from the corner where all of my other equipment is. I am going to have to figure out how to move the outlet. I have to do it right, and put in a switch and everything, because if I don't it's going to drive me crazy.
 
medicevans said:
You know what guys, I don't think I've ever introduced myself. My name is Brian, I'm a medic (duh right?) in a mid sized city, married with five kids (almost 16, 9, 8, 14 mos, 1 mo). Now you understand why I have one shot to get it right and why I don't get much shop time. :D
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medicevans said:
Hahahaha. You are spot on Phil! The little one is a month old. I had a slow night at work last night and got five whole hours of sleep. It's the longest straight I've slept for several weeks. Lol. I know it's only temporary, and in a few months I'll be back out in the shop. Not a big deal.
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Brian, congrats on your new little one! (Not sure why I thought it was still in the oven.) I think you mentioned it in one of your posts, where do you live? (You might want to add it to your profile. Not only is it enjoyable knowing, sometimes there are knife folks in your area would not have learned about otherwise.) Good luck with whatever you decide to do!
 
Salem Straub said:
Remy, that's exactly my feeling about the Pheer grinders. I think they are a great deal, and it sounds like they work well, but I'm not quite unreservedly recommending them to anyone just yet. I just throw them out there as an option. I did get an email from him that he's redesigning them for even better tracking, and all aluminum wheels...
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That was one of the things we talked about when I was deciding how I wanted mine. He was looking for thoughts on the configurations and whether to go with all aluminum as a base or not. My suggestion was to do both. Offer it both ways as a standard package and also to clarify some of the options for folks. There's definitely a demand for a rock bottom price on a grinder like this, but he's likely to have just as many if not more folks want it with the aluminum so it makes sense to show that as a standard package too. I'm not sure yet if he's going that route or just making the aluminum the new norm and the poly's a cost cutting option, but either way works. I went that route because I really don't want to fight with getting it all together just right, all the little parts to buy here and there... I figure I'll let someone who's got the practice and all the tools on hand take care of that.

I get the feeling, from what folks have said and from talking to him, that the "even better tracking" really means, "easier for me to build and not spend as much time adjusting to get it right before shipping." That's certainly a major concern, since if he has to spend even an hour or two adjusting and even modifying a nearly ready machine to get the tracking right that's time he could be putting into the next one or other projects. Given the horror stories from folks doing their own builds when it comes to that final adjustment I can see where he'd always be on the look out for a better way to build it.

*shrug* I'll know in a week or so. I goofed and ordered belts the same time I ordered the grinder. The darn things are sitting there taunting me.
 
Ooooo!!! Big update! I sold the remainder of my performance motorcycle parts today! My budget is now $1650! Much easier and more wiggle room.

I'll be able to do the grinder and lights and get a great starting selection of belts and maybe a few more pieces of steel and handle material.

I think with this new development, I'm going to go with a GIB and fabricate a jackshaft set up. Of course, I may change my mind in an hour.


Remy, you're kind of danged if you do, danged if you don't when it comes to buying belts before grinders. Hate to get them early, but the grinder won't run if you don't have them!

Phil, I really need to get that updated. I'm in central IL, home of the Fighting Illini, Champaign. Well, 10 miles south, but close enough.
 
Yeah, I just wish I hadn't jumped the gun so much. :) In my head I was thinking, "let's order my basic stuff to try out so I'm ready to work when it shows." I think I just jumped the gun by a few weeks. :)

Cool deal on the additional budget, that will definitely help your choices and options.
 
Greg, I just read your entire GiB build. Good stuff!

I was planning on using the cheaper wheels from USAknifemaker, but maybe now I have to think about using beumont wheels. Will the cheaper wheels work?
 
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