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from a knife dealer.............

>>"It's too bad that the knife world like most other areas of art are profit driven, it allows people like XXX to operate. Many people will pay for a knock-off as it is "close enough" and costs a lot less. One of the ways to put these people out of business is educating collectors as to the difference between the original and the knock-off. We need to let them know that a knock-off in the knife world is like a knock-off in any other area of manufacturing, cheap profiteering to make a quick buck off of other peoples hard work and designs.

Unfortunately there will always be a market for the lookalikes until we can make people understand that you get what you pay for."<<
 
I had absolutely no idea about the advertisement, in fact was clueless until this thread. I don't read TK magazine at all. I never discussed with Bub or him with me about making a copy or clone of Neil's knife. While I did represent Bub, I hadn't had any of his knives since Blade show when I brought him all I had to put on his table for him. I didn't take any back from Blade with me.
Also although I was one of his purveyors, certainly not his main one, he didn't discuss everything he was doing with me. This caught me cold. I will agree that the circumstancial evidence looks bad, but I don't know how I can change the circumstances, it is in the past. Another thing the term CC Knife was never used in the inquiries, the used the term Bub Worrell's Card Sharp. I sent them to one of Bub's other purveyors.

One more clue to follow up is I noticed looking at the ad the picture of the knife was taken by the Weyers.
 
So let me get this straight Paul. You did show Bub and discuss the knives that you bought from Neil. However you left Blade with them no longer in your possession. Therefore, it had to be Bub who made the decision to CLONE these knowing from your discussion with them that you had just purchased them from Neil? Is that accurate?

If so, how about a disclaimer, a demand that your website be removed from this advertisement, and some investigation on your part as to how this happened. you certainly know all the players so getting to the bottom of this should be quite simple.

let us know what you discovered, I would hate this to end with your insinuation that Bub did this with the knowledge you say you provided him during your discussion at BLADE......Ira
 
Originally posted by wolfmann601
So let me get this straight Paul. You did show Bub and discuss the knives that you bought from Neil. However you left Blade with them no longer in your possession.
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There was only one. I think the reason Neil is thinking I got more than one is I traded him for one I liked the look of better. Also while there I had Terrill Hoffman take a picture of it for my website. I did leave with the knife, I had the knife for a month or more, it didn't sell for what I paid for it, I either sold it at a loss or threw it in on a knife deal, my memory is not perfect :(

Therefore, it had to be Bub who made the decision to CLONE these knowing from your discussion with them that you had just purchased them from Neil? Is that accurate?
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I think it needs to be looked into further, I state the facts as I know them to be.

If so, how about a disclaimer, a demand that your website be removed from this advertisement, and some investigation on your part as to how this happened. you certainly know all the players so getting to the bottom of this should be quite simple.
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That is something I hadn't thought of, I will do that as soon as I can get a hold of someone at TK. I doubt if it will be as simple as you make it out.

let us know what you discovered, I would hate this to end with your insinuation that Bub did this with the knowledge you say you provided him during your discussion at BLADE
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I just showed it to him, was no big discussion. And I will find out what happened, but either way I am the bad guy. Either I did it so I am a theif and a liar, or I find out that Bub did without me knowing and that makes me someone who is using the fact that Bub is no longer with us to cover my a$$ because I really must have done it.... talk about a catch-22, I am the bad guy either way.
 
Ok Paul; I've had about enough of your "oh I didn't mean to", and the "I do everything above board"'s, when I and many others know different. I also believe this thread is somewhat disguised by it's subject line, and will start another..less disguised thread, and see what the majority really think.
 
You do that Steve, you are real good at stirring things up. I don't believe I said I didn't mean to, that would mean I did something wrong, but knock yourself out.
 
I think that is a thread about Circle P Knives or Paul Vandine is to be started, it should be in the GB&U forum, not here. That is the proper place as far as I am concerned.
 
Wolfman, you know your sh*t is getting old, you don't know me, you didn't know Bub, you don't know the whole story, I do intend to find out, but it seems like Steve all you want to do is stir the pot a little more, keep your snide little remarks to yourself or email me directly. I will post what I find when I have had time to talk to all concerned parties, but Neil won't contact me direstly, so I will get the info from all other available sources. I have never said that the knife wasn't cloned that is obvious, that I had nothing to do with it isn't but we will find out.
 
Paul, I guess you would like it if I would "keep my snide little remarks to myself or email you directly." This would only serve your intentions to keep things swept under your not so tidy little rug, and a I will not be a part of others getting sucked in by your BS!
 
Steve you would love to try and make it about that, unlike you I like to directly take to the people who have a grievance against and not further stir the pot. It may make me look bad, but do you think what you are doing puts you in the best light? Am I not here answering all questions asked? Is your nick Wolfmann601? that post was for him and not you after all.
 
Sorry Paul, I do NOT know that my SH*T is 'getting old'. What I do know is that you claim to be an expert in the knife industry and as an expert have failed miserably to stay on top of your "trade".

A true expert or purveyor reads every trade magazine in his/her chosen profession from cover to cover. It's the cost of doing business.

In this case as an expert, I MUST presume that when you showed Neil Blackwood's credit card knife to Mr. Worrell, you told him who the maker was. afterall as an expert I refuse to believe you walked up and said 'hey look what I just made', not likely.

You also say you showed it to "lots of people" at BLADE. Well Paul, lots of people did not clone the exact design. You are one of three sites listed in an advertisement in a very popular knife magazine. There is no excuse as a purveyor/expert that you did not see it. NEIL BLACKWOOD did and thats why this thread appears.

You are correct in stating that I do not know Bub Worrell. Should I assume [you know that word] that based on the facts as "you know them" Bub Worell must have done this knowing damn well he was duplicating the design of an honest hard-working maker? If so, I am glad I don't/didn't know the man. But based on what I have been told, this would be way out of character for a man such as Bub Worrell.And since he is dead, we are left with Plausible denial on your part.

I find it quite convienient, and utterly unacceptable for an "expert".
 
I know your post wasn't *for* me, but I still feel the need to bring the truth as I know it to light. Granted this may not put me in the "best light", but keeping your antics and proven traits private and under my hat would just serve to keep the little snake's head reappearing from under the rock, and make it harder for me to look at myself in the mirror...knowing that far to many keep it "private". You have collected all to many names by things being kept quiet. And, once again I will be no part of it by "keeping it to myself". I would've hoped that by now you would've learned that stepping on toes in this industry is not acceptible behavior.:confused:

Unlike you, I believe it's time for your business practices and personal behavior, as I and others veiw it to be made public for public's sake.

Although I know many of the burned ones will keep quiet, not wanting to waste the time, etc. I have started a thread here http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=232737 to see what other experiences others might have had. (knocking myself out);)
 
This thread has taken a wide turn. When it first was posted I thought about moving it and maybe I should have. It now needs to go to GB&U.
I have not had the chance to talk to my friend Blues and he may wish to move it back here which would be fine.

I knew Bub well enough to feel that he would not knowing make a copy of someones work in the manner that the ad shows, Bub was not a fool and would not risk his reputation by pulling a stunt like that. I know Neil well enough to realize something is very very wrong here. It actually hurts when I see things like this in our hobby. I hope things get resolved and that the truth comes out.
 
Originally posted by Gus Kalanzis
I knew Bub well enough to feel that he would not knowing make a copy of someones work in the manner that the ad shows, Bub was not a fool and would not risk his reputation by pulling a stunt like that. I know Neil well enough to realize something is very very wrong here. It actually hurts when I see things like this in our hobby. I hope things get resolved and that the truth comes out.
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I agree with Gus, and if anyone wants to dissagree with him we can step outside.

What is the truth here?
Let's ask ourselves a few questions:
Did Paul buy at least one of Neil's knives? Both agree he did.
Did Paul show his knife to Bub? Paul admits he did.
Did Paul ask Bub to make him several copies of Neil's knife? I doubt it.
If he did, how many did Paul get, how many did he sell, and to who? My understanding is Paul never received any of this style knife from Bub.
If anyone saw or bought one of these knives made by Bub from Paul, let's here from you.
If Paul just showed the knife to Bub, never suggested or ordered these knives from Bub, what is his crime?
Did Paul ask to have his link included in that ad? Why would he if he didn't have those knives to sell?
I'm not going to tell you Paul is the world's greatest businessman, but what did he do wrong?
Neil has a right to be upset, but with who?
 
Here's what I know:

I knew Bub Worrell, and feel very comfortable calling him my friend.

I know Paul, from the sidelines, not well enough to judge him in any way.

I know that Bub had notebooks full of designs, and while he found the adoption of other styles to be a challenging exercise (like doing carved knives ala Broadwell - whom he proudly acknowledged), he just didn't have any need or desire to steal from another maker.

I know that I discussed credit card knives with Bub at least two years ago, and I know he was producing them as far back as fall of 2001 (maybe longer, that's just when I saw them first).

Here's what I think:

I think that ad was placed by Bub himself. Whether it was sponsored or whatever, I don't know. But I'm pretty sure that was a "Bub" ad.

I think that the mere insinuation that Bub would reduce himself to being associated with such a scheme maligns his memory, and he'd have shot you for saying it as fast as he'd shoot someone he caught doing it.

That's all I got. I don't know what any of this means to any "case" that's being built. I'm horrified that this all came to the table publicly in the form of speculation, and sickened by any inference that Bub's character was anything less than completely honest and pure as regarded the craft.
 
Brian, If I accept your logic, one major problem remains. Paul admits showing this knife to Bub, so we know Bub knew that Neil had made this specific design.

If Bub then made them, he duplicated, no he CLONED the intellectual deesign of Neil Blackwood knowingly.

I can only get the facts here. I know Neil sold at least one to Paul and Paul showed it to Bub in June 2002.

They appear very recently being advertised now with a different name, listing three dealers from which to buy. One, circle P knives says he knows nothing, but fielded two E-mails telling the parties he knows nothing BUT they should call Cove.

This is a purveyor, did he inquire why he was being E-mailed, did he refer the folks to Neil Blackwood, if he knew nothing why did he refer them to Cove for the "card sharp"? Strikes as somewhat of a contradiction when a guy claims complaint and utter ignorance of the very existence of this clone, yet he tells someone where they might be able to find them.

credit card knives have been around for 20 years, if not longer. The coincidence:rolleyes: of this is that Bub just happened to design a spitting image of Neil's and Paul Vandine just happened to have one and somehow ended up in an advertisement for sale.

I can accept his claim he had no knowledge of the add, but his claim that he had no prior knowledge of the creation of this CLONE may be asking a wee bit too much
 
The reason I sent them to Cove was that Daithi at Knives.com doesn't carry any of Bub's knives, so the only who MIGHT have it was Cove, I knew I didn't. I had no clue what the Card Sharp was I simply passed them on to someone who might.
 
WRT the design, has it occurred that the credit card blade is one where every design may look like a lot of others? We know Bub saw Neil's design 6 months ago. I just told you he was producing credit card blades for 18 months to my knowledge, possibly longer. With 20 years of makers doing everything possible in the format, is it not possible that Bub, or any other number of makers, may have been producing a similar design for years, seen Neil's, said, "shoot, wish I'd thought of putting the pretty colors on mine", then gone back to work on their autos and art daggers, like Bub would have?

If any of your scenarios involve Bub knowingly replicating another's work, scratch them.

BTW, Cove is listed in the ad, as well as Bub's "own" site at knives.com. Bub had no real internet presence, and was happy to have these outlets.
 
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