HEST Folder Warranty -Your Thoughts

[solocanoe]

joben, orangejoe...you guys can go read literally PAGES of threads on this....

Hopefully we won't pollute this thread with the "WHY" it's cool for Jeff and Mike to protect themselves against nuckleheads trying to tinker.... and folder vs. fixed blade toughness...think that arguement's been hashed out.

Jeff's just asking for the "how" to put together the warranty. How's that for cool?

 

[michaelm466]

I agree with most of being what's said, being on the pre-order list, the most important thing to me is being able to get anything on it fixed even wear parts, so if the warranty doesn't cover this (which is reasonable/understandable) I'd definitely like replacement parts/kits available for purchase as already mentioned, like replacement blade for $25 (or maybe more since this is such a thick blade) or a high wear kit available seperately, kind of like the izula scales. I'd feel much better about using the HEST/F without worry if I knew I could at least buy new parts if I break something on accident. I also think that intentional damage shouldn't be included in the warranty and that includes "pimping" like trying to make it a ffg yourself or trying to carve out the scales messing up and then wanting it to be replaced for free when you mess up, though I think it would be reasonable to buy new scales from ESEE.

So I guess what I'm trying to say, regular ESEE warranty minus long term wear and intentional damage, but make replacement parts available for purchase.

 

[imaginefj]

$25 (or maybe more since this is such a thick blade)

Or maybe less since D2 costs less than some of the premium steels that BM uses and they charge 25.

 

[insomnia]

I think the big thing that NEEDS to be fully covered is if the blade itself breaks. Not the pivot, pivot hole, etc, but if the blade itself dies, it needs to be replaced.

It should include prying. I mean the damn thing is 3/16" thick.

Now it would be cool if you replaced for free a knife destroyed in the act of actually saving the owner's life. Of course, you could stipulate that the knife has to be returned to you or RYP to be put up on a "brag board".

:thumbup:

I expect the actual blades to be as strong as the ones on my fixed blades. I see no excuse for the tip of a folder breaking off any more than the tip of a fixed blade, and I think that should be covered under warranty to remain up to par with the rest of the ESEE line, just my 2 cents.

Kyle.

 

[kreole]

Not covered:
Repairs directly attributed to:
-normal wear and tear, including cosmetics, rust, and lockup
-damage directly caused by owner's modifications, including the results of disassembling the knife [that includes stripped screws, not fitting together precisely, etc.]
-damage to the blade if not the result of manufacturing defect

Covered:
--everything else


Reasoning: The things not covered are in two camps, one being problems that are the result of the actions of the owner and are not implicit in the design or manufacturing (rust, damage to the blade, and modifications), and the other being things that will necessarily happen to the knife over time and do not negatively affect its use (cosmetics and lockup--well, lockup as long as the design allows it to move over to 100% lockup and still lock)

Also implicit in the warranty is that problems are not covered if the owner's actions caused them. To put it another way, I don't agree that there should be any ultimate deal-breakers, like many people have suggested (UDT-Seal with misuse, TTD with disassembly or using power tools on it), meaning you do something to the knife, and that causes the warranty to be voided so that any damage, even if unrelated to the reason the warranty was voided, isn't covered. If it's the owner's fault, fine; if it's not, it should be covered, regardless of the status of the overall knife. It seems crazy to me to tell people how they can use what they own--which includes (ab)use, disassembly, and means of sharpening, to give a short list--and saying any of those things voids the warranty entirely does exactly that. Of course, if they do something that harms the knife, it's their fault and should have to pay for the fix (which is why mods, messing up disassembly, and damage to the blade aren't covered), but otherwise, it should be fixed under warranty.

 

[ron_m80]

I get what your saying but keep in mind bladeforums users are not the only people who buy ESEE knives. I think to create a different "class" of knives (not deserving the same warranty) with the DPX logo would be insulting to both the consumer and the guys from DPX

In what way, and what does it have anything to do with BF members?

the world works in many different ways, to try to pin a separate product to the warranty of several others because you find the name of one man as a common factor, doesn't actually mean anything of value.

 

[jdboy]

:thumbup:

I expect the actual blades to be as strong as the ones on my fixed blades. I see no excuse for the tip of a folder breaking off any more than the tip of a fixed blade, and I think that should be covered under warranty to remain up to par with the rest of the ESEE line, just my 2 cents.

Kyle.

:thumbup: Well said!

 

[ron_m80]

:thumbup:

I expect the actual blades to be as strong as the ones on my fixed blades. I see no excuse for the tip of a folder breaking off any more than the tip of a fixed blade, and I think that should be covered under warranty to remain up to par with the rest of the ESEE line, just my 2 cents.

Kyle.

So devil's advocate, when the pivot breaks instead of the blade, people(you) will pay up and not cry?

its easy to engineer a pivot pin to shear before the blade breaks, bends or fractures. How about we all trust a few of the good people behind the ESEE products you love, to have your interests at heart, and manufacture the best folder they can, while giving themselves the respect of a decent barrier from the below average consumer and an already weaker by design knife.

 

[jdboy]

I believe most know normal limitations of a folding design. With that I think the poster above was just saying he didn't see any difference in actual blade strength from the folder to fixed blade standpoint. The pivot is going to be a week point that a fixed blade isn't going to have but the blade itself should be comparable. I really can't speak of that first hand as I don't own a ESEE fixed blade as I can't carry one legally where I live but I do enjoy many quality folders. I have pre-ordered this one as I think it'll be as tough as nails (within its design limitations).

 

[mat_890]

In what way, and what does it have anything to do with BF members?

the world works in many different ways, to try to pin a separate product to the warranty of several others because you find the name of one man as a common factor, doesn't actually mean anything of value.

ESEE/RAT is known for their "best in biz" warranty. If they make a product with a crappy warranty people may assume and spend 175-200 bucks on something they no longer want once the warranty card is read.

I know the difference, you know the difference, but Bobby Smith (non BF member) will probably not. Regardless of what you think people do not expect a "no BS warranty" one one ESEE knife, and a "total BS" warranty on another.

Well maybe you do, but most don't

 

[insomnia]

So devil's advocate, when the pivot breaks instead of the blade, people(you) will pay up and not cry?

its easy to engineer a pivot pin to shear before the blade breaks, bends or fractures. How about we all trust a few of the good people behind the ESEE products you love, to have your interests at heart, and manufacture the best folder they can, while giving themselves the respect of a decent barrier from the below average consumer and an already weaker by design knife.

If it breaks at the pivot, that is an entirely different story, and I have NEVER had that happen before. The pivot is an obvious weak point of any folder compared to a fixed blade, whereas if a tip breaks off, it would be harder for me to understand why that would be covered on a fixed blade and not a folder.
That being said, it was more of a way to fit the folder warranty with the current ESEE warranty, which is what a lot of people love about their ESEEs. If I had to pay 25-50 bucks for a replacement blade because it broke at the pivot, I would. Hell, I'd probably pay that for a new blade if it broke at the tip, too. Jeff wants to go ABOVE what the normal warranties of the industry are, by adding that to their warranty, I think they would be above and beyond all others and still not end up going bankrupt.

Kyle.

EDIT: Ron, I read your post earlier mentioning broken blades, and I agree with your standpoint of user error vs HT problems, etc. I think most people will not have problems with breaking blades as long as the knife is used properly and manufactured correctly, but the fact that ESEE would replace an entire knife on a fixed blade if the blade broke REGARDLESS of whether it was user error or not is why I agreed with what I did.

 

[The Government]

I think that the user should be able to take apart their knife without voiding the warranty.

It is a slight insult to the buyer when a manufacturer does not allow the user to take the knife apart. If they simply cant figure out how to put it together then thats their fault. Maybe you could include a diagram of all the parts with dotted lines showing where everything goes -like the diagrams in instruction manuals for hobbyist's model cars.

I like that the warrantee is transferable and no proof of purchase is required.

It should be stated that modifications void the warranty. However, I think that if the modification is small and not significant, that it can be under the discretion of RAT/ ESEE wether or not they will use warranty service. This way, you can always decline a modified knife, but if the mod was not serious, you could fix it "under the table," so to speak.

The idea of having a repair shop is excellent. This can not only handle warranty work (if the work is cheaper than a new knife), but it can also repair old used knives that have taken to normal wear and tear. This can be done at a cost to the user. It could also be a place to store replacement parts (cost to the user).

 

[gottahaveit27]

I agree with the sentiment stated above that the warranty should allow for the replacing of blades with broken tips, as at 3/16" thick this blade should be stout enough to be relied on not to break. I also see no difference between the blade on a RAT fixed knife and that of a the HEST folder as far as breakage goes (as long as they are confident in the thickness and heat treat of the steel).

As far "wear and tear" goes I think that ESEE should offer a warranty similar to other "high end" manufacturers. That is, that anything cosmetic should not be covered, but if a customer has a lockup that over time has worn and is no longer within spec (ESEE needs to determine what this is) it should be fixed under warranty. The pivot, if not damaged should also be adjusted for the customer. If it is damaged the customer should be charged for the repair. Same goes for the lockup.

The former being said, I think that any damage caused by abuse (to me batoning a folder, prying anything other than wood, etc.) should obviously not be covered.

I also think that offering part kits is a great idea.

Edited to add: ESEE should charge HEST folder owners for sending back a knife that was improperly reassembled by the owner and should refuse to fix under warranty, any damage caused by improper assembly by the owner.

Thanks to the ESEE crew for allowing us input. As always first rate!

 

[kreole]

I finished a nice five hour drive from Philadelphia to Connecticut and with my "Lockean" suitcase of knives sitting in the trunk, I had lots of time and little to do, so this topic rattled around in my head. For some reason, this thread came to mind http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=757170, which links to survivalstraps.com and points out that they say:

We are pretty sure that when you receive your SurvivalStrap gear, you are going to love it. We also realize that if faced with an emergency situation, you may hesitate to unravel your SurvivalStrap because you will not want to depart with it's awesomeness. So here is the deal. If you do unravel your SurvivalStrap and use it in an emergency situation, we will send you a new one. Free. Yes, Free

Going back to what psychophipps said--that one shouldn't be afraid to use it in extremis--if the warranty isn't the standard ESEE "no questions asked" warranty, it would be nice to have a clause in there like that of SurvivalStrap, something like if the knife is damaged while acting to prevent injury or death, it will be replaced with a new one. It seems like this would go well with the ESEE/RYP philosophy of going above and beyond the norm.

 

[Joben]

I think that the user should be able to take apart their knife without voiding the warranty.

Yes.

Going back to what psychophipps said--that one shouldn't be afraid to use it in extremis--if the warranty isn't the standard ESEE "no questions asked" warranty, it would be nice to have a clause in there like that of SurvivalStrap, something like if the knife is damaged while acting to prevent injury or death, it will be replaced with a new one. It seems like this would go well with the ESEE/RYP philosophy of going above and beyond the norm.

Yes.

 

[lsheldon]

What ever warranty you guys decide to put on the knives, I'm sure it will be more than fair. The knives look rugged as all get out, I doubt if there will be any issues on my part. But you know there will be those few idiots who do something crazy that they shouldn't and then want you to cover it.

I really love the idea of selling replacement parts. That in itself is awesome. You never know when you will want to replace a scraped up clip or lose a screw. Plus, if I were to break the tip off of one of my copies, it would be awesome to be able to buy a replacement blade. Kind of like Benchmade allows you to do. I like it.

:thumbup:

Les.

 

[gottahaveit27]

What ever warranty you guys decide to put on the knives, I'm sure it will be more than fair. The knives look rugged as all get out, I doubt if there will be any issues on my part. But you know there will be those few idiots who do something crazy that they shouldn't and then want you to cover it.

I really love the idea of selling replacement parts. That in itself is awesome. You never know when you will want to replace a scraped up clip or lose a screw. Plus, if I were to break the tip off of one of my copies, it would be awesome to be able to buy a replacement blade. Kind of like Benchmade allows you to do. I like it.

:thumbup:

Les.

Though I stated tip breakage not caused by prying materials other than wood should be covered under warranty, I wouldn't be opposed to having to pay a reasonable fee for a replacement blade.

 

[1066vik]

My $.02 -- largely lifted from the ESEE website.

Minimal BS Warranty. If you screw it up or break it, send it back and we'll replace it. Warranty is transferable. In other words, we warranty the knife no matter how many times it's been traded, sold or given away. We don't ask for a sales receipt, date of purchase or where you bought the knife - No fine print and no hassles. If you have a problem, contact us.

Note: You MUST complete this form and return it with your knife. You must email us a tracking number and the reason you are returning the knife for warranty repair. We suggest you email us before you ship the knife to make sure the knife is covered since we do not warranty normal wear and tear.

We do not warranty against rust, normal wear and tear, or user modifications that structurally compromise our folding knives. Note: Our folding knives are made from high carbon D2 steel. And while D2 is a top choice for professional cutlery designed for hard use, it will rust and stain if not properly cared for - especially on the cutting edge and around the laser engraving. It is the user's responsibility to keep the blades properly lubricated and cleaned. We suggest using a dry film rust inhibitor such as TUF-GLIDE or TUF-CLOTH. In addition, the blade pivot, locking mechanism, assembly screws, pocket clip, and internal bushings will wear with time. While wear and tear is not covered, repairs can be made at a reasonable cost, this includes damage to these parts from extreme abuse (for example: batonning and spine whack tests). Contact us for details.

 

[brjohnson3]

It is being advertised as a "hostile survival knife" so i believe it needs to be backed. I trust you guys to judge for yourselves on the circumstances in which the knife if broken would be fixed or replaced. I do think No pimping or Mods is totally a legitimate claim for voiding the warranty. The knife comes with a great deal of character and little extras. It would be great to offer re sharpening and replacement parts. parts can be purchased easily and accessible to owners. I think the majority of the buyers will treat the knife with respect and not be stupid but when or if the time came to use the knife for survival and it got damaged doing so then it should be replaced or fixed. I think that is fair. You guys are awesome i believe you will come up with the right warranty.

 

[hwpaintballer]

I don't think the following things should be warranted,

breakage of blade or lock due to,
prying
hard batoning
throwing
spine whacks

unless the user is in a situation where he is pressed to use the knife in an abusive manner, one where common sense is involved, should the knife be warranted from the customer breaking it.