When I sold knives to customers across the boarder I often got requests to have it sent as a gift or to purposely lower the price. I refused to do that because it poses risks and is a pain to deal with that I don't need . All knives have to be paid in full including shipping prior to it leaving my hands. If the customer didn't like it they could always buy from another maker. However that rarely ever happened, for the most part when the buyer really wanted the knife they were willing to pay for all fees involved.
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Hey guys need help with a Canadian buyer.
- Thread starter jpinc
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What kind of dim wit sends such an expensive knife in an envelope and without insurance? Especially to another country!
As for the buyer, you also took the risk by refusing insurance and defrauding Customs.
Both of you are at fault. Both of you are now on my ignore list.
EDIT TO ADD: I strongly believe that if the buyer refuses to split the money with the seller he should be permanently banned. Who else agrees?
As for the buyer, you also took the risk by refusing insurance and defrauding Customs.
Both of you are at fault. Both of you are now on my ignore list.
EDIT TO ADD: I strongly believe that if the buyer refuses to split the money with the seller he should be permanently banned. Who else agrees?
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Furthermore I would like to add that this is precisely why I will NEVER buy, sell, or trade with anyone who isn't located in the United States. Seriously, you couldn't pay me to trade with someone outside the U.S.
It's simply not worth the risk and hassle.
It's simply not worth the risk and hassle.
In a proper transaction insurance is always the choice of the seller. It does not matter if the buyer requests no insurance.
The only person who defrauded customs was the seller.
The buyer can make all the requests in the world but the seller does not have to agree to any of them. While the buyer requesting such ridiculous things may make him morally questionable, it appears in this instance that the buyer did absolutely nothing. All of this falls on the Seller. If I were the seller I wouldn't have even posted this as it is rather embarrassing.
I don't. The buyer did nothing. Not a thing. Literally. He may be of questionable character but if that is the criteria for banishment we would have a lot fewer members. The seller stupidly agreed to all these dumb terms set by the buyer and made matters worse by a poor packaging and shipping job.
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Wrong. Either party can collect on the insurance, it just takes forever and a half
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As far as border charges go, is it not for new items only? That's not to say you won't get stuck with some processing fee and perhaps have to struggle to get your money back from taxes (if they charge taxes on a used item), but compared to the potential loss of $1200 that's minimal.
I set aside my 100 or 150 when I buy a knife just in case there are customs charges.
This is just a bad situation and hopefully it gets sorted. A good lesson on packaging your items though.
I set aside my 100 or 150 when I buy a knife just in case there are customs charges.
This is just a bad situation and hopefully it gets sorted. A good lesson on packaging your items though.
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Sorry to hear about the misfortune of this transaction. This is the reason, like many have said, why I only deal in house (CONUS +2). I have only ever sold one thing internationally and it was a headache to just get all of the proper paperwork in order. That + additional shipping fees and the higher chance of something going wrong since it must then go through customs, makes the entire process quite tricky.
For this particular transaction, a few mistakes that I would suggest be corrected for next time would be 1) shipping in a secure, rigid box and 2) not declaring anything a "gift" just to avoid taxes/fees, since that ultimately kept you from getting insurance on the package. SO, this was sent in a non-secure package without any sort of shipping protection, just the start of a recipe for disaster. With all of the hands that packages transfer through, even boxes can get pretty banged up, so envelopes (padded or not) with a bulky object are sure to get some damage along the route.
Hopefully this can get resolved to both party's satisfaction and that some lessons are learned. Best of luck.
For this particular transaction, a few mistakes that I would suggest be corrected for next time would be 1) shipping in a secure, rigid box and 2) not declaring anything a "gift" just to avoid taxes/fees, since that ultimately kept you from getting insurance on the package. SO, this was sent in a non-secure package without any sort of shipping protection, just the start of a recipe for disaster. With all of the hands that packages transfer through, even boxes can get pretty banged up, so envelopes (padded or not) with a bulky object are sure to get some damage along the route.
Hopefully this can get resolved to both party's satisfaction and that some lessons are learned. Best of luck.
People here are spouting rules as if they were carved into stone by the gods - insurance always on the seller, values on customs forms, and on and on. Yup that is how all deals work 
If the buyer requests a low value to be listed on the customs form, that is an automatic acceptance on their part that insurance cannot be provided for the full value of the item and thus the buyer is on the hook if something happens to the item while it is in transit. Putting $20 on the customs form does not help the seller in any way but can potentially save the buyer quite a bit of money like it did here. An arrangement with all of the benefits but zero risk for the buyer? That makes no sense.
As for the issue of how the knife was packaged, I am on the fence. I ship about half my items in USPS small flat rate boxes and the remaining in bubble mailers - never had a problem *knock on wood*. In either type of packaging, I do make it a point to wrap the item in foam, bubble wrap, etc so it does not move around inside and so it cannot be identified by touch alone. If someone really wants to open it and take a peek for nefarious reasons, it will be opened and taken regardless of the packaging.
Though I do agree the box can at times prevent an opportunistic theft, this is not one of those situations. Am I missing something or was this not deliberately opened at customs? Box, envelope, tube, what have you - it was going to be opened regardless and I do not see how the packaging suddenly bears so much responsibility. A Vox is very nice, hefty knife - you do not need to be a knife nut to identify it as something valuable. Even on the flip side, someone could see a $20 gift declaration and think it is no big deal if it goes missing. The empty packaging gets sealed up and sent on its way leading to this unfortunate situation. Like I said, a box would not have changed the end result. The blame should still fall on the actual thief.
Splitting the loss is an okay solution but the seller is being pretty generous to agree to that. Not much flexibility with the buyer holding him over the flames on the PP dispute. BF typically looks down upon a PP dispute being opened before any kind of agreement is discussed privately between both parties - at least from what I have seen lately.
Good luck to both of you.
If the buyer requests a low value to be listed on the customs form, that is an automatic acceptance on their part that insurance cannot be provided for the full value of the item and thus the buyer is on the hook if something happens to the item while it is in transit. Putting $20 on the customs form does not help the seller in any way but can potentially save the buyer quite a bit of money like it did here. An arrangement with all of the benefits but zero risk for the buyer? That makes no sense.
As for the issue of how the knife was packaged, I am on the fence. I ship about half my items in USPS small flat rate boxes and the remaining in bubble mailers - never had a problem *knock on wood*. In either type of packaging, I do make it a point to wrap the item in foam, bubble wrap, etc so it does not move around inside and so it cannot be identified by touch alone. If someone really wants to open it and take a peek for nefarious reasons, it will be opened and taken regardless of the packaging.
Though I do agree the box can at times prevent an opportunistic theft, this is not one of those situations. Am I missing something or was this not deliberately opened at customs? Box, envelope, tube, what have you - it was going to be opened regardless and I do not see how the packaging suddenly bears so much responsibility. A Vox is very nice, hefty knife - you do not need to be a knife nut to identify it as something valuable. Even on the flip side, someone could see a $20 gift declaration and think it is no big deal if it goes missing. The empty packaging gets sealed up and sent on its way leading to this unfortunate situation. Like I said, a box would not have changed the end result. The blame should still fall on the actual thief.
Splitting the loss is an okay solution but the seller is being pretty generous to agree to that. Not much flexibility with the buyer holding him over the flames on the PP dispute. BF typically looks down upon a PP dispute being opened before any kind of agreement is discussed privately between both parties - at least from what I have seen lately.
Good luck to both of you.
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Ludwigs post sums up everything pretty nicely. Both individuals are at fault here and if the buyer has any integrity he should split the loss as opposed to opting for a paypal dispute to screw the seller. On another note the only proof upholding Greyhulk's claim of the package arriving empty is just his word. There is no tangible evidence, as least not brought forth, towards his claim. I guess you really have no choice but to give him the benefit of the doubt as there is no clear recourse that benefits both the buyer and seller.
While I think many of us might agree that this arrangement puts the buyer MORALLY on the hook, it does not do so LEGALLY. If the buyer paid $1200 through PayPal, I don't think PayPal cares about how the item was shipped. The buyer paid $1200 and did not get his merchandise, that's all they will see.
Properly insuring the item protects the SELLER, but would require accurately declaring the value on the customs form. There is no way to avoid this. Even if the buyer agrees that he will take responsibility if the item is lost, I don't think PayPal will care. And they certainly will not be sympathetic to the "I lied because the buyer asked me to" argument. I think someone earlier referenced that you cannot enforce an illegal contract, so the seller would have no leg to stand on with that argument.
BTW, assuming you filled out Form 2976-A, the form says, " A false or misleading declaration may lead to a fine or seizure of the item and additional penalties.
Always a good idea to stop and think twice any time someone asks you to lie in any aspect of your life. Hope you two can work this out.
That is how all deals done the right way work. For example, TAKE A LOOK AT THIS SITUATION!
We already know he has no integrity. The seller should have easily been able to see that based on the fact the buyer asked him to lie on a customs form. A sucker is born every minute. The seller basically agreed to his own butt kicking. Situation never should have happened. Seller should take this as a very expensive lesson learned and hope to continue the rest of his life without ever being taken advantage of this badly again.
That last sentence. :thumbup:
:foot:I think a fair resolution would be to split the cost of the kinfe 50/50 and never make the mistakes that were made again.
Cross border and international shipping has never been a problem for me in many transactions here with BFC brothers in USA and abroad. :thumbup:
That last sentence. :thumbup:
I think a fair resolution would be to split the cost of the kinfe 50/50 and never make the mistakes that were made again.
Cross border and international shipping has never been a problem for me in many transactions here with BFC brothers in USA and abroad. :thumbup:
Very fair point. Consider the item seized!
And who was it who lied on the customs form?
Last thought I had - was this item sent via USPS Priority International? Tracking is available for that to Canada, so the buyer might not have recourse through PP. Seller can provide the customs form number and clearly show that the package was delivered - if he has the original receipt he can prove that the knife was indeed in the package with the shipping weight.
Only thing is the size of the transaction at $1200 technically requires signature confirmation as proof of delivery per PayPal terms.
I still think the buyer is on the hook. Lots of good points made here though, and I might not agree with some of you but I can see your point.
Best of luck to buyer and seller.
Only thing is the size of the transaction at $1200 technically requires signature confirmation as proof of delivery per PayPal terms.
I still think the buyer is on the hook. Lots of good points made here though, and I might not agree with some of you but I can see your point.
Best of luck to buyer and seller.
Actually, all packages to Canada can be tracked (including First Class). Tracking + shipping weight on the receipt will be proof enough that the knife was indeed in the "envelope". That aside, mistakes seem to have been made on both ends, so 50/50 as many have advised is the right way to go. Live and learn.
I would be shocked if the seller was able to save any receipts based on the fact that he couldn't protect himself from basic thievery. Even if a customs form was saved, what does it show? That a $20 package was delivered. Fools will be separated from their money and there will always be shady folks there to do the separating. All we can do is get the word out on how to do basic business transactions. In this day and age, done correctly, there is very little risk.
PayPal does not give two turds about the $20 declaration on the customs form. If anyone has gone through a dispute and experienced PayPal siding for or against you due to the claimed value on the customs form versus the tracking number showing delivery - please chime in lol.
If the seller has the receipt, he has proof it was sent to the correct address (matching city and zip code), proof the knife was in the package originally (weight), and proof it was delivered (tracking on the website). PayPal has $50 in fees riding on this transaction and no reason to refund it other than the claim from the buyer that he got an empty package. The only hiccup is lack of signature confirmation since this transaction is greater than $750 USD. My guess is that only becomes a requirement when the entire package is lost in transit.
We get it - no integrity, thievery, deals done your way are the only way. The sermon does not help either party. Two guys agree to do a deal a certain way, they are free to do so. Key here is that the buyer is backing out on his end of the agreement and someone at customs (most likely) stole the Vox. Only person we know for sure did everything as agreed is the seller . . .
If the seller has the receipt, he has proof it was sent to the correct address (matching city and zip code), proof the knife was in the package originally (weight), and proof it was delivered (tracking on the website). PayPal has $50 in fees riding on this transaction and no reason to refund it other than the claim from the buyer that he got an empty package. The only hiccup is lack of signature confirmation since this transaction is greater than $750 USD. My guess is that only becomes a requirement when the entire package is lost in transit.
We get it - no integrity, thievery, deals done your way are the only way. The sermon does not help either party. Two guys agree to do a deal a certain way, they are free to do so. Key here is that the buyer is backing out on his end of the agreement and someone at customs (most likely) stole the Vox. Only person we know for sure did everything as agreed is the seller . . .
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