Hollow grinding a U2 - need maker

Dan Gray said:
you never asked if anyone has tried that
As noted in the above, it has already been done, I have two such blades already, so it is kind of obvious that someone has tried it and succeeded, so asking that is kind of redundant.

Alvin has actually been doing it for more than 20 years actually on blades much harder to work with than this one, and the guy he learned it from was an experienced maker at the time, selling knives for awhile.

how rough is rough when you quote .005 to a custom knife maker anyway?
As noted, I told him to grind it as thin as he can get it, using the numbers I listed as a workable goal, I left the tolerances up to him. That particular number, 0.005", comes from a full sharp primary grind with a back bevel, I first heard it from Wilson who learned that method of grinding from Boye.

Based on the conversation we had, I am confident Krein knows what I am looking for and information will be gained regardless of what actually happens to the knife. Plus the interaction with him was worth starting this thread anyway even if the knife was never ground.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
As noted in the above, it has already been done, I have two such blades already, so it is kind of obvious that someone has tried it and succeeded, so asking that is kind of redundant.
That particular number, 0.005", comes from a full sharp primary grind with a back bevel,
-Cliff
Cliff read what you said..

if you have two of these now ,,,so why this thread in the first place?
that seems redundant to me. :rolleyes:

sooooo why don't you test the ones you have now?
another joke right??
send one of those to me if you would? so I can mic it too will you?
..when you say .005
(1/8th the thickness of a piece of writing paper.) then say grind it as thin as he can get it, isn't that deviating from what you asked for?

If I asked for .005 this is what I'd want, if the testing were based on .005
now! with a blade made to what ever you get??

you'll then have to say, these tests are based on a blade of what you got
not what you wanted..anyone can produce a one time blade but to reproduce it would put another maker and the original maker at a disadvantage.
the test would be useless if it can't be reproduced exactly,
then you'd have to consider? who would buy them anyway if they have to learn how to use it, with-out braking it.. :eek: then I have to ask if this is just for you? if so,, why bother with this whole thread knowing everyone here thinks it's a big joke anyway thinking
the way you test knives are not valid tests :confused:
there is a lot of redundancy here that I see., :confused: ..

regardless,, I still want you to send it to me, at .005 (or close? what ever you get :rolleyes: :confused: ) being ground pre-hardened I still think it's going to warp all over the place with 1095 if it don't burn first. SS will take it I think
but it's just my 2 cents. ;)
OK I'm done playing ... got work to do..
 
Cliff Stamp said:
I am pretty sure Thom would send you his U2 if you would forge a couple of fullers on it.

It would be pretty impressive work to forge a blade this size, out of laminates, in these steels, at that thickness.

Hell I'll send you mine and I'll have his reground. Just let me know.

:eek: No forging fullers into my U2! It'd balloon into a blade too thick to fit in its handle and need to be reground anyways. Plus, I way overspent my mad money and can't pony up another $56 anytime soon to replace my U2. :(

Does anyone here know if the heat buildup from an 8" grinder would ruin the temper of an M2 blade?
 
Dan Gray said:
if you have two of these now ,,,so why this thread in the first place?

As note in the above :

1) to possibly improve the cutting ability and ease of sharpening of the U2
2) to check to see if this profile can even be ran in that stainless

Plus as a side issue find a new maker to work with, as I knew anyone who was willing to even discuss that profile would have the viewpoint I would want to work with.

Yes it might not work, I would be concerned about overheating personally, if it doesn't then it doesn't. As noted the information is worth the knife to me.

..when you say .005
(1/8th the thickness of a piece of writing paper.) then say grind it as thin as he can get it, isn't that deviating from what you asked for?
No, as noted they were benchmarks, again that is what the ~ means, had I wanted it to within a specific tolerance I would have stated it. I am usually not that shy about saying what I want.

When I request a custom knife I am really specific with detailed spec's, I always give geometries to that detail, but I let the makers float them based on their experience, asking them to discuss them with me if something changes significantly.

Usually I discuss them in detail at the time of ordering, where they come from, are they workable and so on. Some times they change as they work with the steel as often I ask for materials they have not worked with before.

these tests are based on a blade of what you got
not what you wanted..
It is always the case that the work done with a knife represents the ability of that knife not some ideal.

anyone can produce a one time blade but to reproduce it
I am getting a custom blade done to my preferences, I don't really care about the ease of making it a production item. I get custom knives because I can do things which you can't do readily in production knives.

who would buy them anyway if they have to learn how to use it, with-out braking it
You have to do this with any knife, some are just more overbuilt than others. My personal ones are not overbuilt at all, I run them all just at the geometries which allow them to do what I intended them to do. They get damaged all the time when I loan them to friends.

I carry more than one knife usually so this means they tend to get heavily optomized. Even my "grubbing" knives are far more acutely ground than most customs and production blades with the exception of the above makers I mentioned.

I am currently carrying a CRK&T Point Guard for a rough user, the primary hollow grind has been modified with a flat overlay right to the edge producing a primary edge profile of 5.6 degrees per side, on top of this I overlay a secondary bevel at 15 degrees per side.

This secondary bevel is actually far less than 0.005" thick as you can't even see it, if you mic the blade at 0.005" it moves more than a mm back from the actual edge which is then thus only a fraction of that in thickness obviously.

And again, that is the *rough* knife I carry, I use it for working around bone in the kitchen, digging, opening cans and the like, the ones I use just to cut soft things like cardboard and ropes with are ground *way* thinner and more acute.

then I have to ask if this is just for you?
Obviously, I do get customs made as gifts from time to time, but most of them are for me, not prototypes for the general public.

if so,, why bother with this whole thread
Because I thought it was likely to turn up a maker and it did, I assumed this would be the place to request custom work done, it makes sense given the title of the forum. Yes I knew it would turn up a host of off topic commentary, I don't care about inconsequential side remarks.

As an aside I learned a lot anyway about various things, not the least of which is an interesting commentary on the difficulty of this process which is exactly opposite to what Alvin noted which he describes as actually very easy.

That hard part from his persective was actually getting the stone to run with little vibration, but it has to be considered of course that he actually made his grinder from parts, I assume high end commercial grinders this would not be an issue.

With the vibration issue solved he decribed the grinding as easy. It seemed to be that establishing the groove was the hard part from my point of view, but he has a really high tech solution to that.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
It seemed to be that establishing the groove was the hard part from my point of view, but he has a really high tech solution to that.

-Cliff
well you said he uses a high tech wash/mach motor :)

let me geuss??? angle iron for a rest with a stop on it :confused:

I've made knives from less.. so it can be done for sure.

have fun.. :D I give, uncle :D
I still want you to send me that blade though.. :)
 
Dan Gray said:
angle iron for a rest with a stop on it
No jigs, it is all freehand. I figured you could cut a small track with a demel which would give enough feedback to control the stone. Later on Alvin mentioned that he does in fact use a small hand grinder to set the bevel before going to the grinding wheel.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
It seemed to be that establishing the groove was the hard part from my point of view, but he has a really high tech solution to that.
-Cliff

Cliff Stamp said:
No jigs, it is all freehand. I figured you could cut a small track with a demel which would give enough feedback to control the stone. Later on Alvin mentioned that he does in fact use a small hand grinder to set the bevel before going to the grinding wheel.

-Cliff
Cliff :confused: who is YOU, you're figuring? ..
I lost the stone years ago. and I don't see myself going back to it to soon..
.the only reason I'd use a hand grinder is to remove slag from welds, I moved ahead and got better equipment so not to mess with that stuff..
it pays for it's self , but to each his own to where he wants to go..

OK,, I'm off to grind a knife that might be less then optimal for chicken joints
but I chew them up after cooking anyway, so it don't matter :D
 
Dan Gray said:
who is YOU, you're figuring?
The person grinding, i.e. the general you. After fooling around with convex and flat grinds while reading some of Alvin's commentary on how he hollow grinds I could not figure out how you start the grind as the contact area is minimal.

I figured you would just skip all over the place as there is nothing to hold the stone in place, but if you established a track you would have something to grind into. I would use a dremel as I have one, you could just grind one in with a hand stone, Alvin uses a small hand grinder.

I finally tracked down a picture of his setup :

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/grinder.htm

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/wet.htm

A lot of what he does is repair or enhance folding knives, multi-blades in particular like :

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/ggrampa.htm

http://www.panix.com/~alvinj/jack.htm

The blades are usually replaced with full hard 1095, M2 or similar, often thinner stock with the above mentioned high hollow grinds.

The end up looking pretty harsh after use, especially after sharpening flat to stone, but they are not made to look good, just cut well and stay sharp.

-Cliff
 
Clif, here is what I use.
kmgdust.jpg

Simple belly up to the grinder and go to it :D
I grind the material away from the edge to the spine. Sort of walk the bevel up the blade untill its where I want it or totally flat ground.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
The person grinding, i.e. the general you.

I figured you would just skip all over the place as there is nothing to hold the stone in place, but if you established a track you would have something to grind into. I would use a dremel as I have one, you could just grind one in with a hand stone,

-Cliff
:confused:
OK let me get this straight
you is me if I'm doing the grinding, right?


now you siad "I would use a dremel as I have one,,"
OK now
is (I) you or (I) me this time?
if me is me not you then you must know some how I have a dremel...not you, me the grinder? then you should know I don't use it as a knife grinder
dang,, this is getting to deep for me.. :(
 
blgoode said:
I grind the material away from the edge to the spine. Sort of walk the bevel up the blade untill its where I want it or totally flat ground.
I don't think I could produce anything sensible that way, it would look like reverse hillbilly grantons if anything. How do you get a smooth curvature?

I was thinking of just starting in the middle and grinding it out, if it then gets too deep then changing the angle to grind more towards the edge.

Do you have any pictures which show the grinds in progress?

Dan Gray said:
"I would use a dremel as I have one,,"
OK now
is (I) you or (I) me this time?
It is the solution I would use as I have a dremel. When I said you could use a stone, it was the indirect you, as in "You can't win 'em all.", it doesn't apply simply to a specific individual.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
How do you get a smooth curvature?
-Cliff
Practice. Get some wood and try it on that. I flat grind everything so my challange is getting decent bevel grind lines. Flat grinding is a little harder in that respect.
 
Yeah, I don't care about grind lines, mainly I would be interested in just keeping a decently constant edge thickness, wood would be a good idea as it would grind a lot faster than steel. I have a bunch of mild bar stock that I sometimes cut up, I have actually ground that into convex knives and it was trivial. You just put it on the belt and push and it naturally takes a nice shape. I should rig up a curved platen and play with hollow grinding.

-Cliff
 
Hey guys thought I would weigh in here. I though this was an interesting change for Cliff. In the past it seemed he tried to destroy blades, but here he was looking to increase cutting performance at the cost of strength. I thought that maybe he is starting to see the light!! (Jedi Voice) Turn from the dark side....Sooo I offered to hollow grind the U2 blade on a 14" wheel. I told him that I could not grind to the specs that he posted (I don't thing a CNC grinder could either), but would make it much thinner and improve the cutting ability greatly. I like my knives thin to cut!

How am I going to start my grind? I am going to just start grinding, no problem! Brian has stated how I grind, from edge to spine. Many makers grind in this fasion! I find it to be the easiest way to control edge thickness.

My hat is off to the guy grinding on a stone!! I know it can be done, but it is by far more difficult. He is correct on the secret to doing it, getting the wheel dressed and running smoothly. Looks like he is doing some pretty good work with his "primitive" set up. Cooper knives were all made on stone grinding wheels, and he turned out a bunch of high quality stuff!!

Tom
 
I have a bunch of mild bar stock that I sometimes cut up, I have actually ground that into convex knives and it was trivial. You just put it on the belt and push and it naturally takes a nice shape.
Cliff, if you ever need a reviewer for one of your knives, let me know! I'd love to check one of them out! :D

Tom, I agree with the "thin is good" philosophy. I keep getting people asking me for a Tactical Orange Peeler in 3/16" or 1/4" stock and it's hard to explain why that isn't really the ideal thickness of stock for a blade that is 2" long and 1" wide! :rolleyes:
 
Curious minds want to know.

I want to see you moving at high speed.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Cliff Stamp said:
It is the solution I would use as I have a dremel. When I said you could use a stone, it was the indirect you, as in "You can't win 'em all.", it doesn't apply simply to a specific individual.

-Cliff
so do you have a dremel :confused:
 
Cliff and Tom,

Please let us know how the knife turns out. Cliff, if you do need to loan out my U2, lemme know. My restriction is just against it being forged.
 
thombrogan said:
Cliff and Tom,

Well you did offer to test the knives in Fred's gyuto challenge to see if Fred would be satisfied with their performance, so you must be a reviewer with literally stellar credentials.



For cutting performance under controlled conditions, thin is in, but for a tactical orange peeler, fat is where it's at. You could be peeling one orange or 700,000 and failure to peel those oranges is not an option. Plus, some people aren't sure if their orange peelers are sharp or if they're actually peeling the oranges, so a thicker knife allows for a better tactile response.

Since I'm an orange lover (not an orange fighter), I'd rather have stock between 3/64" and 3/32" with a spine-to-edge hollow grind on both sides (ala that Loveless guy) and fully hardened blade (pearlite is weakness; oranges sense weakness. Quench marks are unnecessary stress; oranges eschew extravagance!). Or do that tribal thing and use my thumbnail like a complete savage. Generally, any blade that makes a razor look like a tubby block of dullness is preferred as I don't want the orange to suffer nor trouble others with the screams of a slow-dying orange.
.
:D haha your not getting off that easy. :)
 
Dan Gray said:
:confused:
OK let me get this straight
you is me if I'm doing the grinding, right?


now you siad "I would use a dremel as I have one,,"
OK now
is (I) you or (I) me this time?
if me is me not you then you must know some how I have a dremel...not you, me the grinder? then you should know I don't use it as a knife grinder
dang,, this is getting to deep for me.. :(
YOU GUYS ARE GIVING ME A HEADACHE!!
 
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