How do you guys feel about China copies?

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abras said:
They don't pay royalties and that's the problem. But you know, they don't break their laws. What to do, they don't respect copyright.
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Then why should we buy them? Why do you support it, because they aren't breaking Chinese laws? I do not care about the laws, I care because it is immoral to steal and profit from other people.

Maybe I was wrong in thinking you support them, but everything you stated previously points towards it.
 
abras said:
I think each customer has his own exclusive rights to buy any knife he wants, made in any country by any manufacture or knifemaker. It's his own money, his own decision.
He could buy cheap, expensive, original, fake, copy or replica. No one to blame him. That's his own money and not the business of others.
Why should I be afraid to admit that the Chinese are making wonderful copies on par with originals.
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Yep. :thumbup:

My opinions about clones aside, I think it's friggin' hilarious that people on these forums get so furious about what other people spend their money on. Yeah, I think blatant fakes are wrong, but I don't whine at the people who buy them about the morality of it or post sayings like "fake knives are 4 fake people!". :rolleyes: That's almost trite enough to be put on a bumper sticker... If you want to buy a clone, whatever, that's your business. If you don't like it, whining at the people who do it isn't going to change it.

Chipped Karambit said:
implying it will be the same quality or actually the same material ( I have seen 440a stamped at D2 before)
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I've seen a Kevin John fake strider (stamped s35vn) outperform a genuine ZT0550 (in the same steel) in rope cutting tests.

[youtube]1pmw9IRyrn0[/youtube]

...and now so have the rest of you. It's like anything else - can you take every one of these knockoffs at face value when they advertise what materials they're using? No, you can't. Can you say that all of these companies lie about their materials? No, that's equally stupid. Some of them obviously lie about their materials, but some of them really do use top-drawer materials, and there are tons of videos out there proving it.
 
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The reason people get furious is that these fakes take away business from reputable knife makers who take pride in their work and make a living selling the knives that these fakes are made to imitate its basically the same thing as someone coming in and taking your job that you take pride in and doing it for less and without any sort of pride in their work which results in crappy QC and a less quality product while you are sitting at home losing money by the minute.

That I can live with if you wanna be that person fine your money, your choice. The thing that people absolutely hate about these fakes is that there is a certain group of low life scum that buy these fakes and pass them off as the real thing and sell them to people looking for a real knife and what they get is a crappy knife and about $300 short.

Fakes hurt the knife market and that is a fact.
 
exile82187 said:
The reason people get furious is that these fakes take away business from reputable knife makers who take pride in their work and make a living selling the knives that these fakes are made to imitate its basically the same thing as someone coming in and taking your job that you take pride in and doing it for less and without any sort of pride in their work which results in crappy QC and a less quality product while you are sitting at home losing money by the minute.

Fakes hurt the knife market and that is a fact.
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See, I don't see that it's nearly that simple.

Do you genuinely think that someone who is willing to spend 450$ or whatever on an Umnumzaan is going to just buy a 40$ Chinese knockoff instead and forget all about buying the real deal? It is horrible when people get duped into buying fakes when they think they're getting the real deal, and that does happen now and again when people don't pay attention, but at the same time, almost nobody who knows what the heck an Umnumzaan is in the first place (ie: someone who knows what they look like and what to look for) is going to buy a 40$ look alike and think they're getting the real deal. People who pay fake prices for fake knives know that they're not going to be getting the real deal.

Besides, we're talking about hyper-expensive premium pocket knives here. Not a single person's job has been outsourced to China or India by Chris Reeve, Rick Hinderer, Mick Strider, or any of these makers over these fakes - Nor are any of them about to shut down their businesses any time soon over some Chinese website selling 40$ versions of their knives.

exile82187 said:
That I can live with if you wanna be that person fine your money, your choice. The thing that people absolutely hate about these fakes is that there is a certain group of low life scum that buy these fakes and pass them off as the real thing and sell them to people looking for a real knife and what they get is a crappy knife and about $300 short.
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On that point we agree entirely. :thumbup: When people buy fakes and know that they're getting fakes, that's one thing. If someone else tries to pass a fake off as the genuine knife, that's where it turns into out-and-out scumbag behaviour IMO. That's mostly why I disagree with these companies making knives and branding them as the genuine thing - I don't think the makers are losing money over them, but I definitely think that it's a way for people to get scammed out of their money.
 
Truth is I wouldn't mind so much if they weren't blatant knock offs I don't like that they would put Chris Reeves, Rick Hinderer, Mick Strider or any knife brand name on them, they wanna make a knock off fine but do what others have in the past like Romex watches or Praba purses.

I know I wouldn't want my name put on a knife or any product unless I personally or someone I trust has given the go ahead to do so.
 
At the end of the day does it really matter?
The Chinese companies are going to steal others' designs no matter what
we do.
Buy it or don't buy it.
One customer not buying or buying a product will not affect the hundreds of factories that
make these counterfeit knives.
 
Oh, yes it will. The demand drives the market. At least that's what they say.
 
Ilikesharpedges said:
At the end of the day does it really matter?
The Chinese companies are going to steal others' designs no matter what
we do.
Buy it or don't buy it.
One customer not buying or buying a product will not affect the hundreds of factories that
make these counterfeit knives.
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I suppose if one accepts "everybody else is doing it" as justification for one's actions, then you are correct.
 
Here are some things I think I know, but an experienced IP attorney can correct me on any aspect of IP law that I misstate:

1. Counterfeits -- i.e., Chinese or anywhere-made knives that masquerade as other brands -- are bad. Arguments can and have been made that counterfeits (with some definite exceptions, such as pharmaceuticals or airplane parts) actually provide an overall economic benefit and don't really hurt the real manufacturers (since the purchaser knows what he is getting and never would have paid for the original), but counterfeits easily show up in the secondary marketplace and fool unsuspecting buyers.

2. Clones (i.e., knives that look exactly or substantially like other popular knives) are not counterfeits if they bear the real maker's own mark.

3. US knife designers don't copyright their designs but use the ornamental patent for protection. And clones may violate US patents for ornamental design (like the reverse tanto blade shape) or mechanisms (like the AXIS lock) -- but US patent law is not extraterritorial. That is, a Chinese maker could be prevented from importing his clone into the US, but the manufacture and shipping of those clones outside the US does not give the US-maker a right of action. Which is one reason you don't see those clones being sold by US retailers.

4. Business is business. If you don't violate a law, there is no other or higher morality by which you should be judged. It's business.

5. US makers who outsource their own manufacturing to China or elsewhere for cost reasons are more harmful to the state of US manufacturing than a foreign maker cloning US designs. Those are the potential US jobs that are actually being shipped offshore. But I recognize that business is business, and business decisions know no national boundaries.

6. People who buy, sell or trade used knives that are still in production hurt the US retailers and manufacturers as much or more than any offshore concern. Every one of those knives bought or traded may represent a real potential lost sale to a US retailer or manufacturer. (And kudos to Benchmade for sponsoring a buy/sell/trade forum on their own site -- unlike other premium makers. They understand that pushing the brand in any way possible and developing its fan base is important.)
 
Counterfeits are evil, no argument. I'm not convinced that knives like these really hurt anybody's bottom line, though:

DmsYDfo.jpg


There are no logos, in fact they're both clearly marked "K. John" on the blades.

I find it hard to believe that either:

1. A person who is in the 0.000001% of humanity that could even identify a Hinderer or Strider (a knife nut) would mistake these for the original
2. A person who is in the 0.000001% of humanity that could even identify a Hinderer or Strider (a knife nut) would be happy with one of these over the original

. . . and for the record, I bought these and a third clone, a ZT 0777 clone, because they were knife models I had no intention of ever acquiring. I just wanted to see if they were as awful as folks here always claim "they're made from recycled gum wrappers!".

They're actually solid knives with better fit and finish than some expensive American knives I've bought. Go figure, all those "it's total junk" claims appear to actually be wishful thinking . . .
 
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Burger and Poland getting ripped off by both counterfeiters and Lynn Thompson is just cosmic justice in action.

I'd rather have a Chinese rip off than a knife made by a full of shit ex-con and a full of shit data processor. At least the counterfeiters are "honest" thieves.
 
I feel like you are cheating out the real makers. If you want something cheap, there are plenty of quality options out there. It's the man (or woman) that makes the knife cool in my opinion. Not the other way around. I cant afford a sebenza ( I can, but my disposable income is fairly limited and goes to other creature comforts) or other higher end knives. Plus, I feel like if you are going to buy a knife, you should plan to use it. I cant justify dragging 400+ dollars worth of production through what I put my knives through. So I rep my few spydercos with pride. Theyre quality, sharpen up well, and dont fall apart. Plus I love that hole. Gloved hands and cold weather. That hole always gets my blade open without mucking up the pivot. Anyway, buying a china knockoff is like buying a fake rolex. Anyone who knows, knows you dont. No disrespect to anyone here who has bought a china copy. Just my 2 cents.
 
evilgreg said:
Counterfeits are evil, no argument. I'm not convinced that knives like these really hurt anybody's bottom line, though:

I find it hard to believe that either:

1. A person who is in the 0.000001% of humanity that could even identify a Hinderer or Strider (a knife nut) would mistake these for the original
2. A person who is in the 0.000001% of humanity that could even identify a Hinderer or Strider (a knife nut) would be happy with one of these over the original
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:thumbup: I have to say, this topic comes up a lot and gets really heated sometimes, but for all the publicity it gets, it's not like any a) knife dorks, or b) speciality knife makers are getting hurt by this issue.

There's a neat stickied thread in the feedback forum about counterfeits and knockoffs and why they're awful. It includes a whole lot of very informative links to counter-counterfeit websites, and a lot of them genuinely are a good read (if you ignore the terribly written taglines like "Fake Food: A DEADLY MEAL"). Together, they give a rundown of the evils and the extent of counterfeiting operations. I noticed something else about those websites, though - the fact that counterfeit high-end knives aren't even a remote blip on the Radar.

Fake pharmaceuticals, fake baby formula full of toxins, and fake military hardware are all real problems, but fake commodity pocket knives like Hinderer or Chris Reeve clones? They're such a non-issue that even websites dedicated to the eradication of counterfeiting don't bother mentioning them (and the one below even delves into the realm of counterfeit batteries and knockoff golf balls, so take that as an indication of how little this is actually affecting anyone).

http://www.havocscope.com/counterfeit-goods-ranking/

So, yeah. Counterfeit high-end knives are morally wrong and all that, but aside from the moral argument, they're basically a non-issue.
 
bonusmarple said:
If it is China it is crap. It is that simple.
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I could not agree more...If your only paying fourty bucks do you really think your getting d2 or titanium??? If its a copy you just cannot guarantee that. You could find better knives for fourty to fifty dollars. Ones that are not copies either...Either way, all the best. Hope you have some nice knives in your future.
 
xX_Blade_Xx said:
I could not agree more...If your only paying fourty bucks do you really think your getting d2 or titanium??? If its a copy you just cannot guarantee that. You could find better knives for fourty to fifty dollars. Ones that are not copies either...Either way, all the best. Hope you have some nice knives in your future.
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Since the amount of D2 that goes into a single knife probably only costs around a single dollar (D2 is one of the cheapest steels around apart from carbon steels) And the amount of titanium when bought in bulk for a single knife is probably only around $10-$15. Yeah I believe it's possible.

The bulk in costs when it comes to knives is labour and tooling. Not materials.

And guess What's cheap in China. Labour. And if the tooling is already there then that's relatively cheap too.

So yeah. There's a fair chance that those knives actually are what they claim to be. And seeing a fake Sebenza up close a few months back you really shouldn't use the quality argument against fake knives.
 
I traded for a fake Umnumzaan on a whim out of curiosity (when you really hate a knife, you might take anything in trade). The blade steel seems to be D2 because it sharpens like it, had some spark cast off on my sander, and doesn't rust like a carbon steel would. While I wouldn't buy one of them, I can say that it isn't that bad of a knife.

I am nit saying buy one. The gamble of QC is honestly too much. If you must have a titanium handle, spend a few more bucks and get a HK Conspiracy or that new titanium Kershaw. Just because I lucked out and got a nice knife doesn't mean that 100 others didn't get a steaming pile of crap. I think, after handling it though, that I might actually pony up the cash for a real LH Umnumzaan one day. Pretty nifty design on the lock.

One thing I would love, though is to get the markings on my fake removed. It feels wrong. If they weren't engraved into the handle I would do it myself, but I don't have any machining tools.
 
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The way I deal with it is this:
Let's pretend for a second I like the design/ergos of the Sebenza, but don't want to spend $400+ getting one. If I see a Kevin Johns KJ007 or something, that happens to look just like a Sebbie, I might be willing to give it a chance. If the same knife is actually STAMPED CRK and sold as a real Sebbie though, no way.
 
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