How Long Do Hydraulic Lines Last? ... 😅

J. Keeton said:
So the larger rod (1.5’’ to 2.0”) adds a notable amount rigidity?
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I'll let Stacy comment on that, but I don't think the 2" rod is the big deal, (edit: corrected per Stacy's post below) just the cylinder does what you want at a cheaper price, actually $113 today on Amazon.

I am NOT very knowledgeable at all on press building, but looking at some control valves I do see that some do have pressure adjustments on them. I'm not sure if "ALL" valves do or not, but some do.
 
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The difference isn't day and night, but i is sort-of morning and noon.

OK, a brief and simple explanation of how a hydraulic cylinder works will help:
The cylinder size (3", 4", 5", etc.) is the size of the piston/cylinder. The piston has a tight seal to the cylinder walls and when the hydraulic fluid is pumped in it moves the cylinder forward under the pressure of the pump. The bigger the cylinder, the more force is applied.
The rod is connected to the piston and exits the end of the cylinder through a seal. The rod delivers all the force of the piston to the end of ten rod
The force from the cylinder is spread over the end of the rod. The bigger the rod, the straighter the force is applied.
The 2" rod has a much larger cross section than a 1.5" rod. This will make for less flex and a more straight path forward.
Believe it or not, a 2" circle has almost twice the area as a 1.5" circle. Thus there is more force delivered in the direction of the ram travel, and less loss of force due to any vector when that force is applied to the dies.

You will notice that the larger rod is also rated at higher tonnage.
 
After thinking about it some more I decided to order a new cylinder… I‘m sure my current cylinder would have operated, however, I know I pushed it past the 1500 mark back in the day and I bet after sitting it’s likely not in tip top shape. I guess I thought “minus well do it right the first time” with this restoration.

The cylinder I ordered is a plug and play with the 20.25’’ retracted length and 1’’ pins. (This gives me around 5/8’’ of un used travel with the dies mated)

Rod size is going to be an upgrade ( old = 1.5’’, new = 2’’)

New cylinder is welded vs old cylinder being tie-rod.

Max operating pressure is 3500 psi on this cylinder. Even with the reduction in bore size, I’ll see an increase in out put over the old system without changing out my pump. If my pump can get 2500 psi the 4’’ cylinder will provide around 15.7 tons vs the 14.7 tons I was getting at 1500 psi on the old cylinder.

If I ever want to upgrade this system, all I’d have to do is purchse a new pump that get get me to the 3000-3500 mark.

This is the cylinder - https://northernhydraulics.net/cata...e-asae-welded-clevis-mount-cylinder-1948.html

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Also I’m replacing all the lines and most of the fittings…. This time around I’m setting up the system and fittings so that I can grab off the self hoses for replacement. The original set up had some custom lengths and the swivel fittings were crimped onto the hoses opposed to being on the stationary fittings. With the standard lengths I’ll be within an inch or two of the original design and with new stationary fittings, I’ll be able to replace these lines easily in the future.

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With the new cylinder, hoses, fittings, filter, and 5 gal of hydraulic fluid the cost to get this guy back up and running is the $500 mark. Not too bad in my opinion. I’m sure there will be some other things here and there.


Thank yall for the help thus far! I’ll keep you posted.
 
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Hey guys, they ended up not being able to get that cylinder out to me before the end of August so I kept looking around. I found another replacement just like it... here - https://www.sladehydraulics.com/pro...g-4-bore-8-stroke-asae?variant=40368330277015

So... couple of options with these specs.



Hydraulic Cylinder WCL 4x8 ASAE

  • Bore: 4" OD 4.5"
  • Stroke: 8"
  • Rod: 2"
  • Retracted: 20.25"
  • Extended: 28.25"
  • Pin Size: 1"
  • Port Size: SAE 8
  • Column Load: 37,000 LBS
  • Work Pressure: 3500 PSI
  • Steel


I find it odd that they list the column load at 37,000 but if you do the math on a 4'' cylinder @ 3500 PSI it comes out to 43,982....
 
This has been a really good thread - I've learned much about hydraulic forging press construction. Here's the 4" cylinder I ordered for my 12 ton mini press
wenproducts.com

WEN CC4008 Clevis Hydraulic Cylinder with 4-inch Bore and 8-inch Stroke

Double-acting steel-welded design handles pressure up to 3000 PSI Features a 4-inch bore, a 8-inch stroke, and a 2-inch rod diameter SAE-8 port (3/4 inch-16UNF) connects easily to your hydraulic hose Retracted 18.25-inch cylinder extends out to 26.25 inches in length Includes a 1-inch...
wenproducts.com wenproducts.com

By reducing the max pressure to 2,000 psi will give the designed 12 ton, but the ram speed will be slowed down a good bit - perhaps to 1.5 IPS? How well that will work I'm not sure.

Thanks for starting this thread.
 
Ken H> said:
This has been a really good thread - I've learned much about hydraulic forging press construction. Here's the 4" cylinder I ordered for my 12 ton mini press
wenproducts.com

WEN CC4008 Clevis Hydraulic Cylinder with 4-inch Bore and 8-inch Stroke

Double-acting steel-welded design handles pressure up to 3000 PSI Features a 4-inch bore, a 8-inch stroke, and a 2-inch rod diameter SAE-8 port (3/4 inch-16UNF) connects easily to your hydraulic hose Retracted 18.25-inch cylinder extends out to 26.25 inches in length Includes a 1-inch...
wenproducts.com wenproducts.com

By reducing the max pressure to 2,000 psi will give the designed 12 ton, but the ram speed will be slowed down a good bit - perhaps to 1.5 IPS? How well that will work I'm not sure.

Thanks for starting this thread.
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Very cool K Ken H> , I didn't realize you were building one! Or are you just replacing the cylinder on your existing press?


I was hoping to find a 5'' to replace mine with... but the cost was prohibitive and all the 5'' ASAE length cylinders I found had 1-1/4'' pins now days. I was trying to think of an intelligent way to enlarge my holes to 1-1/4'' from 1'' without a mag drill... lol - The price took me out of it though. I think with this 4''-er I should be able to get pretty darn high in tonnage if I purchase a pump to bring me to 3000-3200 psi... as I sit now with my 2500 psi pump, I should be able to match the ~15 tons I was getting. Room to grow is always good!
 
For you hydraulic gurus out there….

1.) do you need teflon tape on the connections?

2.) how much hydraulic oil is needed for a system like this? Would a 3 gal tank cut it?

Edit: With some research I’m finding that hydraulic reservoirs should generally be 2.5-5 times the GPM of your pump…. My 11 GPM pump only puts out ~2.9 GPM @ 2500 psi on the second stage. So that would be a 7 gal reservoir requirement. I’m hoping I can use my current 5gal… seems to have worked just fine in the original configuration. I guess an undersized tank would result in cavitation potentially? I also wonder if those rules of thumb are based on equipment running full tilt for extended periods of time vs our intermittent use of a forging hydraulic press.
 
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OK, here goes with my meager bit of knowledge I've found over the last few days. Here's a good site for calculating tons:
https://www.baumhydraulics.com/images/calculators/cyl_calc.htm (psiX piston area)/2,000 = tons

and ram speed: https://www.baumhydraulics.com/images/calculators/cyl_speed.htm

Your 4" ram at 2500 psi will give around 15.7 tons while at 3,000 psi calculates to 18.8 tons. 2550 psi = 16 tons

1.) do you need teflon tape on the connections? It depends on the type of fitting you have. If the SAE type that uses O-rings for sealing they don't go very tight at all. IF using NPT fitting, some folks say just lube threads and tighten TIGHT!!! I don't like that. When removing a NPT fitting from my Coal Iron press I had to use a 4ft cheater bar to break fitting loose. I thought I was going to break fitting, but lucked out. The recommended method is a Loctite 545 type sealant. I use teflon tape, but BE SURE the tape starts at last thread to assure no teflon tape gets into the flow.

For the hose connector that is flare fitting - no sealant is used.

2.) how much hydraulic oil is needed for a system like this? Would a 3 gal tank cut it? I'd use the 5 gal tank, the press will operate "should" operate just fine. If you find the oil tank getting hot in use, then you might need a larger tank. You mention a 11 GPM pump, I remember you've got a 3 hp, 3450 rpm motor? Most hydraulic pumps I've seen are spec'd at 3600 rpm, low pressure (up to around 500 psi or so). My Coal Iron 12 ton mini press has a 5 gal oil tank. Your system will flow about twice as much, but I do think it's at least worth trying.

The above is more than I know about hydraulic systems, If anybody sees anything wrong please do correct.

I'll be VERY interested in seeing how well your 3hp will pump 2500 or 3,000 psi. The Coal Iron 16+ press that uses a 4" cylinder has a 5hp, 3450 rpm motor. I'm really thinking your 3hp will do just fine, especially at 2500 psi range. Looking forward to the results. With your 3450 rpm motor you should have around 4" ram travel speed which is really good.

Ken H>
 
Ken H> said:
OK, here goes with my meager bit of knowledge I've found over the last few days. Here's a good site for calculating tons:
https://www.baumhydraulics.com/images/calculators/cyl_calc.htm (psiX piston area)/2,000 = tons

and ram speed: https://www.baumhydraulics.com/images/calculators/cyl_speed.htm

Your 4" ram at 2500 psi will give around 15.7 tons while at 3,000 psi calculates to 18.8 tons. 2550 psi = 16 tons

1.) do you need teflon tape on the connections? It depends on the type of fitting you have. If the SAE type that uses O-rings for sealing they don't go very tight at all. IF using NPT fitting, some folks say just lube threads and tighten TIGHT!!! I don't like that. When removing a NPT fitting from my Coal Iron press I had to use a 4ft cheater bar to break fitting loose. I thought I was going to break fitting, but lucked out. The recommended method is a Loctite 545 type sealant. I use teflon tape, but BE SURE the tape starts at last thread to assure no teflon tape gets into the flow.

For the hose connector that is flare fitting - no sealant is used.

2.) how much hydraulic oil is needed for a system like this? Would a 3 gal tank cut it? I'd use the 5 gal tank, the press will operate "should" operate just fine. If you find the oil tank getting hot in use, then you might need a larger tank. You mention a 11 GPM pump, I remember you've got a 3 hp, 3450 rpm motor? Most hydraulic pumps I've seen are spec'd at 3600 rpm, low pressure (up to around 500 psi or so). My Coal Iron 12 ton mini press has a 5 gal oil tank. Your system will flow about twice as much, but I do think it's at least worth trying.

The above is more than I know about hydraulic systems, If anybody sees anything wrong please do correct.

I'll be VERY interested in seeing how well your 3hp will pump 2500 or 3,000 psi. The Coal Iron 16+ press that uses a 4" cylinder has a 5hp, 3450 rpm motor. I'm really thinking your 3hp will do just fine, especially at 2500 psi range. Looking forward to the results. With your 3450 rpm motor you should have around 4" ram travel speed which is really good.

Ken H>
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Thanks for the info, sir! I’m seeing some remnants of tape when taking some of the fittings off. I guess I’ll go back with that. I shouldn’t have any flare fittings on the new rig up.

I haven’t taken off the current tank yet… but I’m really hoping it doesn’t have rust inside of it… because I don’t know how I’d get that out!
 
J. Keeton said:
Thanks for the info, sir! I’m seeing some remnants of tape when taking some of the fittings off. I guess I’ll go back with that. I shouldn’t have any flare fittings on the new rig up.

I haven’t taken off the current tank yet… but I’m really hoping it doesn’t have rust inside of it… because I don’t know how I’d get that out!
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I mean…. That’s what the filter is for right?!?!?! ;)
 
I would think about the only place a bit of teflon tape would get hung up would be the control valve? The cylinder is all large holes, the pump.... maybe there, I'm not sure. Doesn't the pump have a bypass setting so it doesn't exceed a set pressure? There is also a pressure adjustment on the control valve.
 
Ken H> said:
I would think about the only place a bit of teflon tape would get hung up would be the control valve? The cylinder is all large holes, the pump.... maybe there, I'm not sure. Doesn't the pump have a bypass setting so it doesn't exceed a set pressure? There is also a pressure adjustment on the control valve.
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I was talking about rust... if it's on the inside of my tank. I'm hoping it's clean. Fingers Crossed!
 
I'm looking forward to you getting the press active with the 3hp, 3450 rpm motor driving the 11gpm pump. I've thinking it will work nicely - wondering what PSI the motor would start being overloaded - 3500 psi? 3,000 PSI? I got my 4" cylinder installed and used it first time yesterday at 2300 psi. My 2hp 1725 rpm motor didn't even notice the load (6.5 GPM), and before I've pushed it to 2800 psi with the 3" ram with no problem.
 
Do yall have any recommendations on die height vs human anatomy? I may take off some length in the legs of this press and was wondering what height was comfortable for yall.

Edit: I took about 9'' off the legs putting the bottom die at around 42" (close to waist high for me). I figured this would give me some lee-way to put it on casters down the road if I wanted to. I also built some legitimate "feet" for it.

IMG_65152.JPG
 
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J. Keeton said:
Do yall have any recommendations on die height vs human anatomy?
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I was waiting for folks who have actual knowledge and experience to chime in with suggestions. with not enough experience to count, my idea is whatever is comfortable for you. I don't think a few inches either way is going to matter a lot in the long term. Your body will adapt to the height, and since it's not something you'll be doing 8 hrs/day every day I would think just what's comfortable would be ok.

Just walk up to the press with a billet held in tongs and see how comfortable the existing height is.

That's a good looking frame - STRONG for sure. I know some folks like the "C" style so they can work from side or end of die. In the small amount of time I've been playing with my "H" style press I've not found any shortcomings with that design. I did make a set of "widening" dies that are like drawing dies turned sideways so the curve of the die spreads the billet rather than drawing billet longer.
 
That's an "H" design frame? That should be plenty strong to handle the full 30 ton the 5" cylinder is capable of at 3,000 psi. I'm looking forward to the rest of the project.
 
Ken H> said:
That's an "H" design frame? That should be plenty strong to handle the full 30 ton the 5" cylinder is capable of at 3,000 psi. I'm looking forward to the rest of the project.
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Yes sir it is. And "back in the day" I had a professional welder weld all the 4x4x1/4 tubing and 1'' plate... Happy I did... Makes me feel way better about bringing up the tonnage.

I'm going to need to enlarge my 1'' pin holes to 1-1/4''. I have a 1-1/4'' hole saw on the way. I'm thinking I'll lay this guy down and arrange my drill press on the floor to get it done. 😅
 
That's going to be fun using a hole saw to enlarge the 1" hole. Do you have a hole saw that's a snug fit in a 1" hole to act as the pilot while drilling? Whether you use the holesaw or a drill bit laying the frame over to use your drill press is the way to go for sure.
 
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