how many buy other knifes while waiting

Possibly but they still have regular sales every now and then.
If not theres always the exchange once the D3V gets shipped out and people resell them. But expect the prices to be jacked up quite i bit haha. Or you could try your luck with the carothers sales.

Is the 4.7 the only size you're interested in? There is a fair few other models coming out with the new HT.

I only have a 6 on pre-order which will be my first knife from survive. But i have a fair few on my want list haha waiting to see how i find the 6 before i make up my mind on the other ones i have planned to get :D

I've only had the opportunity to use my 4.7 for a handful of different tasks, but so far I think it'll be just about the perfect belt knife for me.
I'll keep an eye out for a factory 2nd 4.1 so i can compare the ergonomics/geometry to the 4.7 and see what this delta HT wizadry is all about!
But that 6........now don't you try talking me into also getting one :p

I am told (second hand) that Six Three Bladeworks is selling knives in Delta 3V. I asked how that could be because I also thought it was developed just by those three in collaboration. The reply was that Peter's will do it for others.

Very interesting - thanks for sharing!
 
I would suspect you're right and I quietly obsessed over this for a bit, but I honestly don't expect to notice the difference in my uses. The allure of having the very best available is strong, though! Also, right now I've convinced myself that the 4.7 is the very best model for what I like to use a knife for, but we'll see if I'm still singing that tune when I get a 4.1!

As far as other knives, I got a Leatherman surge a few months ago, but have otherwise completely stopped knife buying. I do an awful lot of looking though. Most of my "fun" budget has gone towards gear recently.

Agreed, although one of the improvements I'm most excited about is the corrosion resistance. Not sure how much of an improvement it is though.
Perhaps I'm getting a bit like Gollum (from Lord of the Rings) with this new heat treat?!

I've had the Leatherman charge for about 8 years and it's still going strong!
 
I am told (second hand) that Six Three Bladeworks is selling knives in Delta 3V. I asked how that could be because I also thought it was developed just by those three in collaboration. The reply was that Peter's will do it for others.

I hope thats not true.
The steel performance, products themselves & overall uniqueness that these companies/individuals have created together by collaboration, would be in some ways ruined. That is only if they had not agreed for the HT process to be shared.

But if of course, it were a uniform decision, to allow orhers to use it if they wish, my opinion has no stand. They own their business and their decisions. So if in that case, more power to them.

Maybe im just biased because i tend to buy knives from companies that stand out, not neccessarily because they're better, but just their uniqueness is a must have :D
 
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Agreed, although one of the improvements I'm most excited about is the corrosion resistance. Not sure how much of an improvement it is though.
Perhaps I'm getting a bit like Gollum (from Lord of the Rings) with this new heat treat?!

I've had the Leatherman charge for about 8 years and it's still going strong!

My enthusiasm for S!K is strong, but my steel sense is pretty weak and my demands are quite meager. My old spec 5 has performed far and above the call of duty in edge holding, toughness and corrosion resistance for what I need.

Great to hear about your Leatherman!
 
I am told (second hand) that Six Three Bladeworks is selling knives in Delta 3V. I asked how that could be because I also thought it was developed just by those three in collaboration. The reply was that Peter's will do it for others.

Someone suggested I drop in here and clarify some confusion.

Like most complex super steels, 3V lacks some of the fine edge stability of simpler steels such as W2 or 52100. This is due to a larger carbide volume, alloying elements, and possibly reduced cohesion in structures formed in temper rather than in the primary quench as a result of retained austenite conversion.

There have been many tweaks to the process to address these issues because a tough wear resistant steel is of less utility if the edge is mushy/crumbly in rough use. Most of the work in this area was in avoiding the secondary hardening hump and addressing RA through other mechanisms.

These early tweaks work quite well and are now available at Peter's HT.

The Delta protocol was developed in collaboration with Dan, Guy and myself. This was done to address an issue that was discovered in 3V due to possible variations in the material condition from lot to lot and its HT response. While we were at it we fully investigated the different variables and their effects on edge durability and dialed in an optimized HT. This is not like baking brownies where your variables are time in the oven and temperature. There are more variables in the matrix and there are actually additional steps added, and there are several ways those steps are implemented that deviate from normal practice. The end result being the heat treat process, while similar in many ways, is fundamentally different. My point here being, it's not a matter of simply saying "we'll just use these times and temps and ta-da". This is not a process they can simply stick in anywhere, it has to be fit in, which can lead to delays. It costs more. It is a bigger PITA. So, in addition to violating a non-disclosure non-compete agreement it would also be more work and more expense. For what? Peter's Heat Treat is a trusted partner in our process. I don't think they're selling a propitiatory heat treat protocol on the side. I think it's much more likely someone is simply confused and is getting the previous low temperature tweak (which both Dan and I did work on) and think it's the Delta protocol. There are many similarities and the previous protocol is very good, but they are not identical.


edit:
There is something I want to make clear here. I do not disparage other makers using 3V and not using our protocol. It's a cool material with a lot of different potential attributes and there are always more than one way to skin a cat. The three of us decided to differentiate our work from previous work because the amount of time and effort that went into developing it was significant and it is demonstrably different and better than industry standard and what came before it. But that's not to say that other folks don't do a good job. I used the previous tweaks for years with good results all around the world. It was good stuff. :thumbup:

Between Delta and the previous tweak, the corrosion resistance is the same, the abrasive wear resistance is the same, the gross toughness (resistance to breaking) is the same, the primary difference is in edge stability, particularly resistance to damage in rough use, which results in better edge retention and more tolerance to accidently hitting a rock or a tough knot etc.
 
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Thanks for taking time to post Nathan. Although I understand only some small amount of this, that small amount helps. After use, my opinion is that the Delta protocol is top of the food chain in 3V.
 
This clarification is much appreciated Nathan! Thanks for making the time to do so.

Someone (who shall remain nameless) mentioned a while ago that the corrosion resistance would be one of the improvements, so at least we now know that isn't really the case.
 
*snip* I used the previous tweaks for years with good results all around the world. It was good stuff. :thumbup:

Between Delta and the previous tweak, the corrosion resistance is the same...... *snip*

Someone (who shall remain nameless) mentioned a while ago that the corrosion resistance would be one of the improvements, so at least we now know that isn't really the case.

Karoi, I don't know how many revisions, or tweaks as Nathan puts it, there have been between 'industry standard' 3V and 'Delta 3V.' If we are talking strictly about S!K's 3V, I believe blades like, say, my last gen 3.5, are at least two revisions away from Delta 3V. I can without reservation say that my D3V CPK field knife is more corrosion resistant than my current 3V GSO 3.5. I believe that is still in line with what Nathan is saying here, as he referenced 'the previous tweak' or the steel that is found currently in all the recent models up to the new 4.1s.
 
Karoi, I don't know how many revisions, or tweaks as Nathan puts it, there have been between 'industry standard' 3V and 'Delta 3V.' If we are talking strictly about S!K's 3V, I believe blades like, say, my last gen 3.5, are at least two revisions away from Delta 3V. I can without reservation say that my D3V CPK field knife is more corrosion resistant than my current 3V GSO 3.5. I believe that is still in line with what Nathan is saying here, as he referenced 'the previous tweak' or the steel that is found currently in all the recent models up to the new 4.1s.

Thanks for this info HK!
Good to know that the existing batch of 4.7s is the previous 'tweak' (if I've interpreted this correctly)
 
Thanks for this info HK!
Good to know that the existing batch of 4.7s is the previous 'tweak' (if I've interpreted this correctly)

Yes, I think you've got it.

The old spec models had a certain heat treat. Then they improved both 3v and 20cv for the new 5.1 and 4.7. THEN they got the delta 3v dialed in for the new spec 4.1's and beyond. Whew!
 
Yes, I think you've got it.

The old spec models had a certain heat treat. Then they improved both 3v and 20cv for the new 5.1 and 4.7. THEN they got the delta 3v dialed in for the new spec 4.1's and beyond. Whew!

Hadn't had my morning coffee before I read Nathan's post!

It would be nice if Guy or Ellie could give a bit more insight into the HT revisions from a Survive! point of view, but only if they felt the need to of course.
 
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I think the peened finish is also supposed to increase corrosion resistance by closing oores in the steel
 
Thanks for this info HK!
Good to know that the existing batch of 4.7s is the previous 'tweak' (if I've interpreted this correctly)

Yes, I think you've got it.

The old spec models had a certain heat treat. Then they improved both 3v and 20cv for the new 5.1 and 4.7. THEN they got the delta 3v dialed in for the new spec 4.1's and beyond. Whew!

You're welcome. I understand it the same way as what Silver's written here ^.


I think the peened finish is also supposed to increase corrosion resistance by closing oores in the steel

You know, I had completely forgotten about this. Nate doesn't apply the peened finish to his blades, so if the peening does indeed further increase the Delta 3V's corrosion resistance it will be very impressive. Thanks for the reminder Riz.
 
Someone suggested I drop in here and clarify some confusion.

Like most complex super steels, 3V lacks some of the fine edge stability of simpler steels such as W2 or 52100. This is due to a larger carbide volume, alloying elements, and possibly reduced cohesion in structures formed in temper rather than in the primary quench as a result of retained austenite conversion.

There have been many tweaks to the process to address these issues because a tough wear resistant steel is of less utility if the edge is mushy/crumbly in rough use. Most of the work in this area was in avoiding the secondary hardening hump and addressing RA through other mechanisms.

These early tweaks work quite well and are now available at Peter's HT.

The Delta protocol was developed in collaboration with Dan, Guy and myself. This was done to address an issue that was discovered in 3V due to possible variations in the material condition from lot to lot and its HT response. While we were at it we fully investigated the different variables and their effects on edge durability and dialed in an optimized HT. This is not like baking brownies where your variables are time in the oven and temperature. There are more variables in the matrix and there are actually additional steps added, and there are several ways those steps are implemented that deviate from normal practice. The end result being the heat treat process, while similar in many ways, is fundamentally different. My point here being, it's not a matter of simply saying "we'll just use these times and temps and ta-da". This is not a process they can simply stick in anywhere, it has to be fit in, which can lead to delays. It costs more. It is a bigger PITA. So, in addition to violating a non-disclosure non-compete agreement it would also be more work and more expense. For what? Peter's Heat Treat is a trusted partner in our process. I don't think they're selling a propitiatory heat treat protocol on the side. I think it's much more likely someone is simply confused and is getting the previous low temperature tweak (which both Dan and I did work on) and think it's the Delta protocol. There are many similarities and the previous protocol is very good, but they are not identical.


edit:
There is something I want to make clear here. I do not disparage other makers using 3V and not using our protocol. It's a cool material with a lot of different potential attributes and there are always more than one way to skin a cat. The three of us decided to differentiate our work from previous work because the amount of time and effort that went into developing it was significant and it is demonstrably different and better than industry standard and what came before it. But that's not to say that other folks don't do a good job. I used the previous tweaks for years with good results all around the world. It was good stuff. :thumbup:

Between Delta and the previous tweak, the corrosion resistance is the same, the abrasive wear resistance is the same, the gross toughness (resistance to breaking) is the same, the primary difference is in edge stability, particularly resistance to damage in rough use, which results in better edge retention and more tolerance to accidently hitting a rock or a tough knot etc.

So a buddy of mine clued me in on this discussion and it deeply interests me so I signed up to respond to this and maybe clear the air. I appreciate Nathan chiming in here and I'll now add my two cents. I'm a small time knife maker, one man show and I only recently started making knives about a year ago. CPM-3V is one of my favorite steels and i usually send my steels to tru-grit for heat treat. To keep things to the point I had a request for a custom knife build in CPM-3V and the request was for the steel to go to Peters Heat Treat for the Delta 3V treatment. I did a little research which linked me to Carothers videos and I was instantly interested in the D3V. I called PHT and asked for this treatment to be done on my customers knives as well a a few others I was gonna send with it. PHT did not say that they wouldn't or couldn't do this for me and the price per blade was more than I payed at Tru-Grit so I assumed I was getting the D3V treatment. I sent the small batch to PHT and they did there thing. I got the small batch back and finished up the blades and thought I had blades with the sweet D3V treatment....... I advertised this as such on social media. This discussion has now brought to my attention that I probably do not have the D3V treatment because it's been developed only for Nathan. I apologize if I have caused a small imbalance in the universe of knifemakers and heat treat. I'll be calling PHT this week for clarification. I hope I have not offended anyone and if I have misrepresented my blades and the heat treat process I will fix my posts.
 
Sounds like an honest mistake. Thanks for taking the time to stop in and explain things.

Depending which direction you want to take your business, Bladeforums could offer a lot to you. At the very least it's a nice place to chat about knife stuff!
 
I think the peened finish is also supposed to increase corrosion resistance by closing oores in the steel

Please excuse my ignorance, but I'd like to understand a bit more about this peen finishing process. For example, if one was to use the spine to strike a ferro rod, a tiny bit material would inevitably be removed from the spine of the blade each time. Would this result in the pores of the steel being opened up/exposed, and that part of the blade then becoming more susceptible to corrosion???
 
Heck of a first post, 63. Thanks for posting. This has come full circle from my post. It was not meant as any sort of accusation, just offering a tidbit that there may be others selling what they believe to be D3V.

You are making some good looking, we'll regarded knives. I'd like to have one or two of your models myself someday - especially if they can be has in 3V.
 
i bought a 4.7 from the exchange to tide me over while i wait for my pre-order 4.1 in 3v with orange g10 :)
 
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