How should I handle this?

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ncrockclimb said:
If you were unsure about the knife, you should not have purchased it or discussed this with Dwaine prior to the sale. Also, your willingness to try to pawn the knife off on Ebay but not here is troubling. You make Dwaine out to be the bad guy, but that is not the way I see it.
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In retrospect, I wish I had asked about it up front. Dwaine suggested that I should have asked for a trial period but I don't think I've ever seen that before. Also in retrospect, I should have sent it to AZCK to start with, so that an independent party could evaluate it. I pulled my eBay listing twice because I was troubled by the whole thing.

I'm not trying to make Dwaine out to be the bad guy. The fact that he doesn't see things my way doesn't make him a bad guy, but I thought it was a pretty dick move to trash me in a GBU thread.
 
PeteH said:
I'm glad someone would like to hear my side of it. I bought an expensive ($650) knife from Dwaine. I almost skipped it because one area of the coating on the non-logo side of the knife looked lighter in the pictures than the rest of the coating, but it was a rare one and I really wanted it. When it came, it was immediately obvious to me that the area was lighter. I couldn't tell why it was lighter, whether there was wear or the coating wasn't evenly applied, but I could see that it was. You really have to have to have it in hand and tilt the knife back and forth to see it, but once I saw it I was unhappy with the knife.

I contacted Dwaine the day it arrived and asked to return it. Since it was a borderline issue and I did not think that Dwaine intentionally deceived me, I offered to pay both our shipping costs. Dwaine said no. It's hard to buy stuff over the web based solely on pictures. To me, a knife purchase isn't over until both the buyer and the seller are happy. Obviously, Dwaine doesn't agree. We went back and forth about it but the end result was that I kept the knife and Dwaine kept my money.

I didn't want the knife. I felt like I couldn't honestly list it on the forum. The issue with the knife is hard to describe, and doing so in a listing would kill any chance of it selling. My compromise was to list it on the bay, describe it exactly as Dwaine described it, and to clearly state in the listing that if there was anything wrong with the knife I would pay for return shipping (by the way, that's always been my policy when I list a knife for sale). Some buyers wouldn't care about the issue or, if they were planning on using it, it wouldn't matter to them. I wasn't trying to flip the knife. I own sixty Busse knives and wanted to add this one to the collection. I listed it for more than I paid because eBay and PayPal both charge fees. If it had sold for what I listed it for, I still would have ended up losing money.

When it didn't sell I tried Dwaine one more time. I was considering trying PayPal's dispute resolution process, but first I wanted to give him another chance to do what in my view was the right thing. Once again, the answer was no. In the end I decided that life was too short. I sent it off to AZCK so that an independent entity could evaluate, describe and price the knife.

I was surprised that they described it as being in excellent condition. I'd been considering leaving Dwaine negative feedback, but AZCK's evaluation dissuaded me. If they thought the knife was in excellent condition, I was probably being too picky, and it wouldn't be fair to trash Dwaine in feedback. That said, I still think Dwaine's sales ethics suck. If he had allowed me to return the knife, at no cost to him, we would have both been happy, and he would have been able to sell the knife to someone else. Apparently, from what he said above in the thread, it was too much work to go to the Post Office twice.

AZCK takes 25% of the selling price. If it eventually sells I'll lose about $100. If someone offers less than the asking price (which is par for the course at AZCK), I'll lose more. That's assuming it sells. It hasn't happened yet. At this point I don't care anymore. I've written it off as a loss. This experience has made me hesitant to ever buy another knife on the forum. I'm stunned that Dwaine has decided to be an asshat and air this out in GBU. I shouldn't be stunned. Given my interaction with him I shouldn't even be surprised. The thread title is "How should I handle this" but there isn't really anything to handle. He has my money and I have the possibility of someday seeing a potion of it back. I thought this unpleasant transaction was over, but apparently not.

I will leave you with this advice. If you buy a knife from Dwaine, make sure you're happy with it based on the pictures because once he has your money the deal is done.

Check my feedback. Every other buyer and seller has been happy.
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First off, your 100% feedback does not get you off the hook for an alleged negative incident. I treat EVERY sale that way and follow through with every single sale. I check that it arrived and that they are happy. Check and check? Sale over.

With that being said......

As soon as you asked for the refund and that their was indeed an issue... the OP should have just gone ahead, bit the bullet, and accepted the return. You run the risk of finding atleast 1 unhappy customer by selling here or any other forum. It’s part of the hobby and should be respected. One person’s description very we might not match another’s, and things that he seller doesn’t see.... the buyer could very well see. That also has to be respected.

The buyer should have flat out filed a PayPal dispute and not waited. That is your fault for waiting so long. I would have never accepted NO without a dispute. I actually had someone find a scratch on a blade I did not see(several years ago), and I learned the hard way I had to be an adult and handle it. I made the right choice to avoid negative feedback or a negative thread.

Looks to be a lesson to both the buyer and the seller. Whether or not you choose to learn said lesson is entirely up to y’all. Time to move on
 
Popsickle said:
As soon as you asked for the refund and that their was indeed an issue... the OP should have just gone ahead, bit the bullet, and accepted the return.
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Hi Popsickle - 100% agree with this. Most importantly the part I made red.

However, I did not agree that there truly was an issue with the knife in this case, and that is the crux of the situation. An independent evaluation has proven that I was/am right. I always strive to have happy customers and treat everyone fairly. If there had been a real issue, I would have refunded the money right away.
 
I would also agree that for "no drama" the seller should have taken the offer of the buyer to pay for shipping both ways and then give the refund for the knife. It's all over then and seller is out no money at all. He didn't.
What is odd, is why would the buyer see the issue in the pics....He admitted he did, yet asks no questions. When it arrives it should not have been a surprise .

Once the buyer does the eBay thing seller is off the hook . Live and learn for both parties here.
 
UDDwaine said:
PeteH PeteH - You threatened me a couple times over the past few months. You threatened to leave me negative feedback. You threatened to challenge the sale with PayPal.

When the knife showed up on AZCK I waited a couple weeks to see if you would contact me to say that they had appraised it that way and that they agreed with my description, but you did not. So i emailed you. You cursed me in your response to that email, and said in the email "if you’d like to exchange negative feedback, that’s fine with me. You go first."

So, to now claim to be the victim, and that I did not let you know, is disingenuous.
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No Dwaine, I believe you were the one who threatened negative feedback. I just said that I hadn't decided what to do about feedback yet (I was waiting to see what AZCK said about the knife). Your words were, "I know where I am leaning on the feedback I should give you at this point."

Also, re a PayPal dispute, the first time I mentioned it I said,

"I was seriously tempted to dispute this with PayPal, but in the end I decided that life is short. I’m going to wash my hands of it and mail it off to AZCK. I’ll let them decide the value and condition."

I really don't think either of those were threats, whether you took them that way or not. I have never in this whole process accused you of being dishonest. I just told you that I was unhappy with it, that I wanted to return it, and that I would pay both of our shipping, and your response was, in essence, tough. In your last email you said, "I have been waiting for you to contact me on this - but it seems that you are not stand up enough to do that" and yes, I told you to go fuck yourself. Sorry, I'd had a snoot full of vino, but at this point I don't regret it at all. I think that's a far cry from what you implied when you said, "Thankfully the rude and profane communications have now stopped."
 
PeteH said:
I didn't want the knife. I felt like I couldn't honestly list it on the forum. The issue with the knife is hard to describe, and doing so in a listing would kill any chance of it selling. My compromise was to list it on the bay, describe it exactly as Dwaine described it, and to clearly state in the listing that if there was anything wrong with the knife I would pay for return shipping (by the way, that's always been my policy when I list a knife for sale).
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This is a particularly troubling part of your rebuttal. If you feel there is an issue you don't move it to eBay, keep silent and just hope that it won't bother someone.

We've all gotten knives described as mint with little flaws here or there. Might be an issue to a buyer and it might not but if you see it you disclose it and let them decide. Most times it doesn't matter and it sells anyway.
 
blanco112 said:
This is a particularly troubling part of your rebuttal. If you feel there is an issue you don't move it to eBay, keep silent and just hope that it won't bother someone.
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Yep. As you can see in the thread, after a short time I pulled the eBay listing and sent the knife to AZCK. I didn't think of that to start with, but it would have been better to let an independent party evaluate and list it.
 
Mark Boyles said:
Pic of the issue...

https://ibb.co/m7pfqR
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As you can see from the link, the area I had issues with was in about the middle of the blade (left to right) and starts about half way down. I thought it was a camera artifact. It's not. It's a lot more obvious in person because that area catches and reflects light very differently from the other areas of the blade.
 
OK, another buyer added to the "ignore" list. :rolleyes: C'mon, man up and offer "hey, I don't like it , how about you refund me $50 (maybe $100) less then I paid and take it back. Maybe yes, maybe no but at least take responsibility for your change of mind (which is pretty obvious). :( YOU are an example of the main reason I do not sell (or buy) on the exchange. :thumbsdown:
 
At the first half I would have personally accepted the refund but made buyer pay return shipping only in the fact that I prefer everyone to be happy about the deal.

Once you mentioned it being listed on ebay it's the buyer's problem to deal with.

I think my methods are pretty similar to Peter's in post #17. I feel like the buying and selling on the forum is part of the fun and I'm not too concerned with breaking even but I'm pretty adamant on trying to keep everyone happy, myself included, and being "fair." I have nothing against people who try to flip knives if they do it properly (proper membership on the forum) and are honest about what they're listing and such. The buying "slightly used" and selling as new is something that bugs the hell out of me and one reason I avoid many "new" knives on ebay unless it's from a seller I know or from a knife maker who list enough details to seem legit... not "hand forged hunting knife, hammered by me."
 
ncrockclimb said:
I respectfully disagree with this.

I am not asking retail prices and I am not REI. If there is a REAL issue with the knife, I will take it back. If the buyer has a LEGITIMATE reason for wanting to return the knife, then I will take it back. However, if he just decides he does not want, I will not take it back. If he is making up BS reasons to return the knife, I will not take it back. I refuse to enable tire kickers and flakes.

While I understand the sentiment of "the deal is not done until both parties are satisfied..." the seller assumes a lot of risk by taking back a knife that a flakey buyer has decided that they don't want despite it being exactly as described. If the knife is as described and the buyer has it, the deal should be considered done.

YMMV, and I understand that this is not an entirely popular option.

edited because grammars not be good
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I respectfully disagree with your disagreement for the simple reason that there is no objective bar for what a "real" reason is. Something might be "real" to one party and not the other. Who gets to decide what is "real?" The guy who has the cash in hand? Why? This seems a little self serving to me.

As someone noted there is no rule that explicitly states this and those of you that think once you have the money in hand it's tough tamales to the buyer unless you are feeling generous certainly have that option to say the deal is done because you are happy. I would not buy from someone with that attitude.
 
Triton said:
I respectfully disagree with your disagreement for the simple reason that there is no objective bar for what a "real" reason is. Something might be "real" to one party and not the other. Who gets to decide what is "real?" The guy who has the cash in hand? Why? This seems a little self serving to me.

As someone noted there is no rule that explicitly states this and those of you that think once you have the money in hand it's tough tamales to the buyer unless you are feeling generous certainly have that option to say the deal is done because you are happy. I would not buy from someone with that attitude.
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I hear you, and understand your position. Cheers.
 
Triton said:
I respectfully disagree with your disagreement for the simple reason that there is no objective bar for what a "real" reason is. Something might be "real" to one party and not the other. Who gets to decide what is "real?" The guy who has the cash in hand? Why? This seems a little self serving to me.

As someone noted there is no rule that explicitly states this and those of you that think once you have the money in hand it's tough tamales to the buyer unless you are feeling generous certainly have that option to say the deal is done because you are happy. I would not buy from someone with that attitude.
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I can respect that view. But when it comes to buying and selling between private individuals, where do you draw the line? In many cases, if a private party is selling an item, it’s because they need (or want) to use the money for something else. Just how long are they expected to hang on to that cash waiting for the buyer to maybe change their mind? Meanwhile, it’s off the market.

I can respect wanting all parties to be happy, but to me, the term customer is reserved for folks buying from a business. Otherwise it’s just two people agreeing to a deal...an exchange of cash for a used item. Prior to forum sales and other online sales connections, face to face deals were generally final. So to me, anything beyond an immediately (within 36 hours) requested return, solely for some misrepresentation of condition, that sale between two non-business entities should be considered final.

If someone wants unlimited time for returns, for an unlimited reasons, then they can buy from a retailer who has the ability to factor that kind of overhead into their business model.
 
Astronaut FX said:
I can respect that view. But when it comes to buying and selling between private individuals, where do you draw the line? In many cases, if a private party is selling an item, it’s because they need (or want) to use the money for something else. Just how long are they expected to hang on to that cash waiting for the buyer to maybe change their mind? Meanwhile, it’s off the market.

I can respect wanting all parties to be happy, but to me, the term customer is reserved for folks buying from a business. Otherwise it’s just two people agreeing to a deal...an exchange of cash for a used item. Prior to forum sales and other online sales connections, face to face deals were generally final. So to me, anything beyond an immediately (within 36 hours) requested return, solely for some misrepresentation of condition, that sale between two non-business entities should be considered final.

If someone wants unlimited time for returns, for an unlimited reasons, then they can buy from a retailer who has the ability to factor that kind of overhead into their business model.
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Actually I agree with that for the most part. If the buyer is not happy it is their responsibility to note that promptly. Not weeks or even several days later. In a face to face deal they would not make the deal if they did not like the product. Selling over the Internet should include an inspection period, but not a ridiculous inspection period. The seller does not have to agree with any objections raised in that short period, but they should offer a refund whether they agree or not. If that is too onerous they should probably confine themselves to selling at the local flea market.
 
UDDwaine said:
Hi Popsickle - 100% agree with this. Most importantly the part I made red.

However, I did not agree that there truly was an issue with the knife in this case, and that is the crux of the situation. An independent evaluation has proven that I was/am right. I always strive to have happy customers and treat everyone fairly. If there had been a real issue, I would have refunded the money right away.
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You felt their wasn’t an issue and the buyer thought there was. That’s a difference of opinion that should have simply been resolved. I respectfully think that you were wrong to refuse the refund, and that it wouldn’t have made it this far otherwise. The purchasing party has already admitted to being pickier than most and is obviously a collector. Why risk a blemish on your feedback over something so trivial? As far as I’m concerned.... your clearly off the hook due to how things played out, but again.... it wouldn’t have come to this unless you refused the refund that was seemingly asked for shortly after delivery.

I once had a guy misrepresent a knife as LNIB that was used and showed up with rust on it. You better believe I did everything I could to make sure the trade was reversed.... including filing a USPS package retrieval to get my knife back.... of course sending his back. Your representation might not be how someone else sees it.

Again..... I think there are lessons to learn on both sides.
 
PeteH said:
I almost skipped it because one area of the coating on the non-logo side of the knife looked lighter in the pictures than the rest of the coating, but it was a rare one and I really wanted it.
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So you saw the issue in the pics before buying but did it anyway? I would have refunded you until you stated this.
 
PeteH said:
As you can see from the link, the area I had issues with was in about the middle of the blade (left to right) and starts about half way down. I thought it was a camera artifact. It's not. It's a lot more obvious in person because that area catches and reflects light very differently from the other areas of the blade.
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When you listed the knife on eBay, did you mention the area on the blade that troubled you. You can answer it here. Dont send me any more private messages.
 
No. I described it exactly like Dwaine did. I couldn't figure out a good way to say here's a very expensive knife that the previous seller seemed to think was flawless but that I wasn't happy with. At least I couldn't figure out a way to do that and still have a prayer of selling it. It's why I bagged the eBay listing and sent it to AZCK. I was uncomfortable trying to sell it on the bay.
 
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