I want to know the truth.......

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Clem Kadiddlehopper

Clem Kadiddlehopper

knife guy
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I love knives, all type of knives, from all type of makers.

What I'm having a problem with are knives that are suppose to be custom knives, and from what I hear they're not.:confused:

What knives am I talking about?

Curtiss Knives

Randall knives are made by several makers and they are NOT considered to be custom knives.
And from what I hear Curtiss knives are NOT completely made by David Curtiss him self.

There seams to be a lot of them coming up for sale in the Custom Knives here on Bladeforums.

Can anyone clue me in on exactly how these knives are being mad? And by who?

Thanks!
 
Good question Al. The lines between custom and "midtech" have been blurred significantly in the last 5 years. Custom knives were once a knife made entirely by hand, by one person. Now, not so much.
 
Actually, the lines have been blurred for much longer than that. I remember reading this thread from back in 2004. In it, Ken Onion mentions that he created a class of knives he termed "Mid-Tech" around 2002 to occupy a needed space between production knives and full customs. That said, it can still be quite confusing unless the you know the knife was 100% made by hand by the maker. That, to me, is a custom.
 
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Thanks Dennis, I remember that KO comment as well from years back now that you mentioned it. It seems that more makers and designers now have more access to have parts machined and finished via water jet and CNC than ever before.
 
RevDevil said:
Thanks Dennis, I remember that KO comment as well from years back now that you mentioned it. It seems that more makers and designers now have more access to have parts machined and finished via water jet and CNC than ever before.
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And the makers are not just going that equipment (CNC & water jet) to get a great, smooth, perfect, clean finish.
They're going to that type of equipment so they're able to kick out more knives. And that to me is production.
I don't care how big or small you are......:confused::)

Out of the Curtiss Knives (Or others for that fact now?) being bought and sold here, I hope someone can clue me in?

Thanks!
 
I'll post this from THAT old thread, it is quote from Ken O. - from what he says here. He is the maker that came up with the term.
Mid-Tech

What should be done?
They will NOT let you sell a Randall in custom's area - but some of these other makers doing a lot less of the build. Are being sold there? - Mid-Tech/
Randall has a LOT more history in the knife market than most of the Mid-Tech makers do.
What gives? - Should they add a Mid-Tech area?:confused:


KenOnion said:
Mid-Tech is a class of knives I created a few years ago to put a dividing line between custom and production .I wanted to discontinue my Boa knife a few years ago due to bordom but the demand was still so high I didn't dare . So I decided to get the parts cut out for me and I would do the grinding shaping and finnishing myself .Problem was , I didn't want everyone to assume I did all my knives this way. I needed to devise a way to differentiate between my custom and these knives I had subbed out part of .The answer was Mid-Tech ,by creating a new category of knives somewhere between custom and production and marketing as such these "Mid-Tech" knives would clearly establish a dividing line between custom and Mid-Tech or less than 100% authorship. Honesty is the key here . Since then there are those that have adopted the term Mid-Tech and defined it differently than I ,which I don't agree with . I installed a dividing line between custom and Mid-Tech but failed to mention that if a knife is all subbed out it is still a PRODUCTION KNIFE. There are alot of makers and posers that think that by assembling a knife they farmed out 90% ,sharpening it and logoing it it is Mid-Tech . It is not a Mid-Tech it is primarily factory made and there for is a Production knife . Now I don't know what % authorship a knife needs to have to be called a Mid-Tech , didn't think it necessary but things bieng as they are there are those that will split hairs and do as little as possable by hand and use the term Mid-Tech where the spirit of the term is lost . Again always ask how much was hand made by the guy or gal whose name appears on the knife . Honor and Honesty are key and as much as we don't like to hear it there are some sneaky ,treacherous ,predators out there who will deliberately mislead in order to turn a quick buck . Most are credible ,honest folk just trying to make a living . Don't let the 10% ruin the credibility of the 90%.
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Custom knife or Handmade knife does not mean it was made by one person or by the person whose name is on the blade. "Sole Authorship" is what you are looking for when it comes to one maker...one knife.

Bob Loveless did not make all the knives leaving his shop much less every operation, many very busy knifemakers have people working for them doing many of the work on knives.

If anyone is looking for "Sole Authorship" on a knife they really need to ask that of the maker.
 
AVigil said:
Custom knife or Handmade knife does not mean it was made by one person or by the person whose name is on the blade. "Sole Authorship" is what you are looking for when it comes to one maker...one knife.

Bob Loveless did not make all the knives leaving his shop much less every operation, many very busy knifemakers have people working for them doing many of the work on knives.

If anyone is looking for "Sole Authorship" on a knife they really need to ask that of the maker.
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You need to help get SPARK to change the rules, to allow Randall knives to be included in the customs knives than -
Both for sale and the Custom & Handmade knife discussion area. OK? if this is the case.....
Not just allow a few makers to do it, right?
 
I'm just going about this to make a point.....
Randall Knives are some of the MOST hands on made knives there are, being made by a few people. (NOT CNC or water jet cutting)
Actually hand crafted by people. Do you see what I'm getting at?

Go post a photo of a Randall knife in the Custom Handmade area and see what happens? See if you can get them to agree it's a custom knife.
 
There has to be someone here who knows?

I would think or hope people here buying these $700.00 knives would know how the knives are, were made?
 
Quote from his website.

All Curtiss Knives are 100% built by hand. We pride ourselves on building some of the most high quality hand tools available
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and another quote he posted from another forum:

•I design and test my designs with CAD
•I cut my parts on my waterjet
•I do my own grinds, heat treat, fit and finish
•If the knife is something I will make a lot of, I may out source heat treat and some secondary machining. This depends on quantity. I will have new machinery to eliminate the need for outsourcing soon.
•I finish each and every knife by hand
•I am the shipping, marketing and communications departments
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"Custom-Made" according to Merriam-Webster is "made to individual specifications". The antonym (opposite meaning) is "mass-produced" or "ready-made".

If you follow a literal translation few to none of the knives being sold as "Customs" are true to definition customs. Most of these are mass-produced and are ready made. All anyone has to do is go to Blade or any other knife shows and see all the knives avail.

All I know is I sure love getting and collecting them.

I'm glad they use modern machines to pump them out. It makes it easier for all to get. Most industries find ways of making their product for cheaper and faster to keep up with demand and to maximize profits. This is business for the makers and hobby for us.
 
All Curtiss Knives are 100% built by hand. We pride ourselves on building some of the most high quality hand tools available.

Curtiss Knives - form what it says above, doesn't use water jet to cut out the knives?

And on the next quote - it says he does.

Randall knives are all made by hand 100%--------- So why are they not included in custom knives?
 
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I want to be clear about something here, I did NOT start this thread out of spite. I did NOT start it to take David down.
( I could really careless how he makes his knives, he just happen to be the one I had heard some about, through some very respected knife makers.)

Anyway I gave this some very serious thought before I started this, knowing that it would probably go this way.

But I said to my self this needs to be brought up and talked about. And I knew no knife maker was not going to do it. (Makers don't like talking about this)
And knew that no big time collector wouldn't do it. ( They got the money and buy from makers actually making true customs, mostly.)
I knew your average collector would NOT bring it up, because of all the facts an scenario's that go into a discussion like this.

So why not me? I have a very deep passion for custom knives and how they are made.

Do you think it's an injustice to makers who are paying their dues learning and working hard to make true custom knives.
So I go out next week, get a CNC mill start kicking out knives and have buddies grind and put them together.
That I should be able to call them customs and start selling them that way? NO - I would be just a small production company.

Someone told me David brought about 80 knives to Blade this year? Come on a custom maker showing up with that many knives? Sounds fishy?


If we let this go on - there will be more and mixed in over time and who knows what the Custom Knife market would look like in a year or two?:confused::eek:

It would be very muddy.....:D

I'll keep saying it - if they're in there - we need to let Randall's in. The founding father of custom knives.

NO - I'm not planning on going away, unless they kick me out. This is the worlds largest knife DISCUSSION FORUMS and I want to know?
 
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Just my two cents, if I see a certain "custom" knife built a certain way in large batches then it is Midtech. You can duplicates of custom knives for sure I would like a couple of custom knives in certain configurations that have been already done, how many ways can you really rebuild the wheel?!?! But when I see the exact combo of materials and colours built like 20 or more knives then to my eyes it becomes a midtech. You can still build full customs via CNC in the lengths of Grimsmo and Tighe.
 
Pellel2 said:
Just my two cents, if I see a certain "custom" knife built a certain way in large batches then it is Midtech. You can duplicates of custom knives for sure I would like a couple of custom knives in certain configurations that have been already done, how many ways can you really rebuild the wheel?!?! But when I see the exact combo of materials and colours built like 20 or more knives then to my eyes it becomes a midtech. You can still build full customs via CNC in the lengths of Grimsmo and Tighe.
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Thank you!

This is all I can ask for. I'm not telling you all this how it is and this is how it should be.
All I ask for is your opinion's on how you guys see it. Then we can see what the majority has to say.
But we have all these guys here passionate about knives (Over 400 views) and not many seem to care about these hard working custom makers getting burned by other types of knives being made.

So again - WHY are we letting some in as custom and NOT others?:confused:

Forget what is Mid-Tech and what is customs, we pretty much know what they are. The old saying "You will know it when you see it."

This was talked about 10 years ago and look were we are .......... come on guys help me out, or do you care?
With the way technology and internet are going there's going to be more and more mid tech, do we just keep putting them in with customs?

I will back off of this for a day or two and see what happens, then I'll be back to bring it back up until something gives.
Or they kick me out of here......:eek::)

It means this much to me.
 
A Bo Randall hand ground knife is without a doubt a custom knife. I agree 100% with you sir. Bo left us in the late 1980's after 50 plus years of making fine knives.

The Randalls today are made by a group of about 20 men making the 3rd generation of Randall knives. That is the part open to discussion and individual interpretation.
 
RecalcitrantAmerican said:
A Bo Randall hand ground knife is without a doubt a custom knife. I agree 100% with you sir. Bo left us in the late 1980's after 50 plus years of making fine knives.

The Randalls today are made by a group of about 20 men making the 3rd generation of Randall knives. That is the part open to discussion and individual interpretation.
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And you can NOT talk or sell Randall knives in the custom area on this forum - period.

But like Pellel2 said you see guys that do 20 of same knives over and over, and they are allowed to sell and post those knives in the custom areas here?

I know it is a posting mistake - but there is a factory knife in the custom folder area right now for sale?

Thanks! good night all.........
 
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