I want to know the truth.......

[JDieseljoe69]

Going to disagree with you, sky horse, although I know there are some makers who do that.

One of the main reasons I buy custom knives is the makers heat treat process, their heat treat.
Whether it be salt pots, temp. controlled kilns, etc.
If a maker can't do his own heat treating I'm not interested.

Sorry OP, I know very little about Curtiss knives.

Doug

Doug,
Not sure why heat treat is important that the maker does it? Most makers are following the process the steel makers recommend! What about BOS or Peters heat Treat or D'Holder? They do a lot of other makers heat treat. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a place that specializes in heat treat do it? A place that does it day in day out, and has the process down!

 

[Clem Kadiddlehopper]

Randall's use to fall under the term "bench made" , which was a small stop of people each responsible mainly for a certain piece of the knife.

Alas, no one is ever going to develop definitive answer to this, it's been argued for decades, and still hasn't been solved to anyone's satisfaction.

I do not have a crystal ball, but I can tell you by looking how things are going, and the rate technology is developing, it's going to get pretty darn muddled in the future.
On what is custom, hand made, Mid-Tech, 3-D printed from computers, to production knives.
Information being shared on the web, is cutting back the learning curve, from the old timers did it in. Better & better equipment.
I see the factory knives improving more and more every day. ( They are using more CNC, an better equipment all the time.) Progress!
Yes I see in the future a lot of really nice knives being made by a LOT of people. And it will be hard for most to tell, what is custom/handmade and what is NOT!
So unless collectors can keep up with all the little secrets on the web & shows on what's going on, and who is doing what, and how? To keep on top of things, and what's going on, it's going to be very challenging for most. (We can't do it now?)
You watch.....
Good Luck!

Go back and look at the dumb chart I did. Before Ken added the Mid-Tech, There were two circles there. One was custom/handmade, the other one was Factory/Production. No lapping - and they are not lapping now. It's that green circle in the middle that's lapping. And like said as we move forward, they will lap more and more. So why not just pull them apart now? And save the future knife enthusiast from going mad!

 

[Gehazi]

agree with OP-- distinction must be made, only reason the lines are blurred right now is one word :sales.

 

[Clem Kadiddlehopper]

Curious, what about, Busse knives? They are hand ground, yet you place them in factory/production area. I think the reason they consider Randall production is that they are essential mass produced, more that a typical maker would employ. How many employees does Randall have? I think that is where the difference comes in! Some makers are using CNC, waterjetting, but they are a 1 or 2 man show, not 20-30!!!

Don't worry about that, it was just very quickly done. Did it to help give you a perspective on the whole thing, some what.
How did you like my lapping of Mid-Tech into the Factory? Do you know what that is, what's happening there?

That like Tony Bose collaborating with case, case takes and makes some of those knives with more hands on, Mid-Tech/Factory mixing.

.

 

[JR88FAN]

I do not have a crystal ball, but I can tell you by looking how things are going, and the rate technology is developing, it's going to get pretty darn muddled in the future.
On what is custom, hand made, Mid-Tech, 3-D printed from computers, to production knives.
Information being shared on the web, is cutting back the learning curve, from the old timers did it in. Better & better equipment.
I see the factory knives improving more and more every day. ( They are using more CNC, an better equipment all the time.) Progress!
Yes I see in the future a lot of really nice knives being made by a LOT of people. And it will be hard for most to tell, what is custom/handmade and what is NOT!
So unless collectors can keep up with all the little secrets on the web & shows on what's going on, and who is doing what, and how? To keep on top of things, and what's going on, it's going to be very challenging for most. (We can't do it now?)
You watch.....
Good Luck!

Go back and look at the dumb chart I did. Before Ken added the Mid-Tech, There were two circles there. One was custom/handmade, the other one was Factory/Production. No lapping - and they are not lapping now. It's that green circle in the middle that's lapping. And like said as we move forward, they will lap more and more. So why not just pull them apart now? And save the future knife enthusiast from going mad!

That is why there are forums like this.

There will always be a lot of information about what is what....

I think this will come down to the makers themselves, and their openness and honesty.

The future is never certain when it comes to technology. Just look at Vinyl recordings (records) they are more popular than ever.
There will always be those that seek out a truly handmade knife, and those who enjoy the craft and want to make every part of a knife by hand.

 

[Bigfattyt]

Regardless of the means a knife maker uses to manufacture a knife, in my mind if others have and are using the same knife I am, they are not custom. Perhaps limited production, but not custom. In my mind a CUSTOM knife is made is made to the CUSTOMer's requirements/specifications --- I mean, that's what custom really means.

I think I would have to disagree. It I call up Tony Bose, and say, I'd like an improved trapper, jigged brown bone, just like the one I saw Old-so-and-so carrying, I'm still going to call that a custom knife.

If Buster Warrenski made a knife, to no ones specifications, just however he wanted, and listed it for sale, I'm still calling it a custom knife.

Some makers make knives, and bring them to a show, for sale. I still consider those customs, though I did not have input on the design. I'm pretty liberal with the term.

Koster does knives in large batches, many still call him a custom maker.

I also disagree that a custom knife has to be forged.

Dan Keffler produces fantastic, hand made swords and knives. One offs, to specs, or his own wild ideas which are full customs. Stock removal can make every bit as fantastic of a custom as forging.

I have a custom slip joint from J. Oeser.

I had input on design, pattern size (had him make it bigger than the original design) blade configuration, and handle material and colors. Blade steel, shadow battery vs bolstered, etc.

He has made many designs just to make them. I don't consider them any less custom, than I do my knife. If a custom maker is letting his creative juices flow, it is still a custom to me.

 

[Gehazi]

for me it is about the amount of physical labor the creator is required to put into the object to create it.

 

[midnight flyer]

Maybe something like this??????

Custom/Handmade knives - ONE or TWO Maker - can use any machines, do it any way they want, out source any thing they want, but the grinds and build.

Mid-Tech - Any amount of people, making any amount of knives, any way they want, but with a lot of hands on, and high quality.

Production/Factory Knives - Knives made by machine mostly, very high volume, very moderate quality, mass produced.

As long as you define an object in subjective terms like "any way they want", "any thing they want", "a lot of", "mostly", "moderate quality", and "mass produced" you will go nowhere with your attempt to set standards.

Standards are set using only quantifiable events, percentages, or anything else that can be recorded and measured.

And using your definition of a "custom/hand made" knife, I could have a blank cut using a water jet machine, and have all holes placed and the profile features cut by a CNC controlled machine, even having the end of the tang threaded for a pommel if so desired.

I could order stainless or brass guards and pommels cast or cut to my exact specs from a milling or casting shop, polished up, cut within a few thousands no doubt, but ready to go.

Then I could have handles cast for me of santoprene, have G10, micarta, nylon, etc., scales cut to my exact specs for fit to the exactly cut blade blank delivered to my door.

I can grind the blade, but also send it right back out for heat treat after a few minutes of grinding.

When it comes back, I clean up the blade, attach the finger guard (a la Puma, no soldering), attach the cut to fit handles with screws/glue/pins etc., screw a pommel on (if needed) and all I have to do is a tiny bit of sanding and some polishing. After that, I take it to my favorite laser etcher and he burns my logo nice and deep for me (local charge for this is $7.50 each if you bring your own .jpg).

In fact, all I did that required a great deal of skill was grinding the blade.

If I had all the other work done to my specifications by outsourcing the various jobs and even exactly cut parts as well, then excepting the grinding of the blade, all I did was build a kit knife from parts I ordered.

That example fits your criteria easily, but I think most wouldn't feel they got a custom/handmade product from a maker that did that.

Robert

 

[Thomas Linton]

If a maker creates a one-of-a-kind knife for you - makes the blade and handle - then I think it passes as "custom."

Beyond that, there is no authority to establish the "official" definition of "custom knife." We just have different people with different ideas as to what one - or three or ten - factors make a knife "custom."

If you have decided on what makes a knife "custom" for you, find out what a given maker does and decide if his knife meets your definition.

This thread, and the many like it over the years, may help you decide on your definition.

 

[Clem Kadiddlehopper]

If a custom maker is letting his creative juices flow, it is still a custom to me.

So here we have Curtiss knives, I'm going to go out on a limb here, from what I know, and have heard about them.
And say that they are made by several different people, not just one guy. How do you classify them?

Remember Ken Onion out sourced his, and started calling them a different type of knife. Mid-Tech

Also just because I could use a computer and punch buttons, and make a knives, would that make me a custom knife maker?
Even though I could NOT make one with out a computer, or least one that you would expect a custom knife maker to make.

 

[Clem Kadiddlehopper]

As long as you define an object in subjective terms like "any way they want", "any thing they want", "a lot of", "mostly", "moderate quality", and "mass produced" you will go nowhere with your attempt to set standards.

Standards are set using only quantifiable events, percentages, or anything else that can be recorded and measured.


Robert

Makers now are doing it any way they want - heat treat out sourced, high end machines, water jet, etc., etc.
We have NO standards right now to speak of.

My whole grip is if it stays like it is? With two categories - Custom or Factory.
And other knife making company's are using several people to make there knives and what ever and they sale as customs.
Then why don't we let company's like Randall's be included?

 

[Andy the Aussie]

Then why don't we let company's like Randall's be included?

.... this all seems to come down to who is an is not allowed to sell/advertise/be spoken of in the Custom forums here... given it is a privately owned forum that really does come down to the feeling/wishes of the owner here ?? Beyond that there has to be some "due diligence" by a potential customer on the "maker". No arguing with your definitions or feelings on what is what but, and perhaps I am reading it wrong as it has been a looooong week at work, this seems more geared to how it is manage don this website. Why not Randall ?? Because perhaps the owner here said so...???

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Doug,
Not sure why heat treat is important that the maker does it? Most makers are following the process the steel makers recommend! What about BOS or Peters heat Treat or D'Holder? They do a lot of other makers heat treat. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a place that specializes in heat treat do it? A place that does it day in day out, and has the process down!

Joe,
That is exactly why I use Paul Bos HTing for all of my stainless and tool steel blades.

I did the one brick forge and oil HT a few times to get a feel for what was happening and then moved to using mostly stainless & tool steels. I figured I could get an oven and mess around with a Dewar of liquid nitrogen for a decade and still probably not get the consistent results that Paul Bos attains.

I decided to spend my time designing, grinding & building my custom knives.

 

[RecalcitrantAmerican]

You can call David Curtiss on his cell during business hours (its listed on his site) and he will answer all questions. I've always enjoyed talking with him, just don't call on Sunday. I learned the hard way. (My mistake, David values family time as do I. )

David designs his knives and make everything in house. The last time I spoke to him it was just David and one other guy. The main reason he brought help in was because he had elbow surgery and was down for a spell. The employee is also extremely talented.

Maybe an easier way to post knives is by asking price? That is not open to interpretation. All folders 0-$250, $251-$500, $501-$1000, $1001-$2000, and $2000 plus. The same thing for fixed blades. I know its crazy, but there would be no fuss.

It shouldn't be the Mods job to know all the ins and outs of what is a custom or mid-tech.

 

[Doug C]

Not in disagreement at all Doug,just posing a question. Interesting thread because I honestly don't know what is truly considered custom and I've seen fixed blade knives for sale in the custom knife maker section where they stated heat treat done by Bos ect?

Doug,
Not sure why heat treat is important that the maker does it? Most makers are following the process the steel makers recommend! What about BOS or Peters heat Treat or D'Holder? They do a lot of other makers heat treat. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a place that specializes in heat treat do it? A place that does it day in day out, and has the process down!

My fault then you guys, it's just that the level of skill of the maker, i.e. his ability to understand the steel he is working with and it's characteristics in all aspects of it's crafting is a factor I consider important when purchasing.
Everyone can decide for themselves, these threads can get pretty hairy and with that I'll leave you guys to decide for yourselves what you want in a "custom" knife.

It's time for me to go anyway as I just noticed I've been "un-friended" by 1 person already and I can only surmise it's because of my views in this thread.
Oh, well.
Have a feeling the debate will continue just fine without me.
Good thread though and also good to hear everyones views.

Doug

 

[Rhinoknives1]

Yes the do indeed. The problem is that as any craft/discipline grows and changes, there are those that cannot accept the changes. The idea of NOT using technology when available is just silly.

I have been a dedicated, professional woodworker that pays my bills with my craft. I have had my own company doing so for about 30 years now.

You guys need to see outside of the tiny, tiny, miniscule world of knife making and get a grip on reality. Do I still use handsaws when a power saw will cut better? No way. Do I use a hammer and nail (although QUITE proficient with them) when I can shoot a nail or brad? Not a chance. Do I paint a house exterior with a brush when I can use my airless? Nope. Do I use a brace and bit or egg beater drill when I can use a power drill to drill a hole? No again. Do I use a plumb bob and line to plumb a wall, or a 4' bubble level? Sorry, have to use the level.

When making furniture or cabinetry, do I harvest my own wood and dry it under my own supervision, or do I buy it? I buy it, even if I have to finish plane it to dimension. Do I make my own plywood to be used in certain areas of the cabinet? No. Do I make my own glue as it was done as little as 50 years ago, or do I buy an new, technically engineered adhesive. Down the store I go. I don't make my own nails as they used to, don't know how to make a screw, nor do I make any of the hardware installed on my cabinets.

Likewise when finishing a cabinet or project, I don't make my own clear coats. I buy lacquers, shellacs and polyurethanes premixed and apply as is required or requested. (You can easily make your own shellac, and by the way and it was a treasured finish for centuries.) Further, I don't make my own paint (easily done, instructions abound on the internet), nor do I make my own natural bristle brushes to apply it. I don't distill my own mineral spirits to clean my equipment nor to I make my own turpentine in the backyard as they did years ago.

Yet with all of my shortcomings, I have had enough referral business that I haven't advertised in years. For the last 15 - 18 years all my business has been referrals ONLY. And strangely enough to some here, folks are fine with my level of participation in my processes. They know I take an enormous amount of pride in my work and that I stand behind everything I do. But they know I don't stand at the shaper for hours and hours making their moldings from raw stock (unless paid to do it) so that they will know I had my hand on every step of the process.



After a period of time, if success strikes a small business, the owner will need help. One simply cannot do it all. Expecting a knife maker to sit and work on one knife at a time from scratching the pattern on a piece of metal to tanning his own leather for a sheath after making the sinew twine to sew it together is unrealistic. It would also lead to starvation for the knife maker and unaffordable knives for all.

I would prefer to know that Paul Bos guaranteed my heat treat rather than a guy working in half his garage with a forge and a bucket of oil. I would much rather see a professionally stabilized burl product on my knife instead of something done in the back yard with a home brew solution in a high pressure paint pot. I would rather see round pins in the scales over hand hammered pins forged from small pieces of stock. I like solid, one piece ferrules over rolled flat stock. I also like modern epoxies over hide glues, and don't expect a maker to cast brass finger guards or butts, nor do I expect them to harvest and treat bone before using it on a knife.

In cabinet making and in knife making (and in any other "craft" discipline) it all becomes a matter of degrees of different processes, often defined by those not involved in the craft that decide what is "hand made", "sole authorship", "completely hand made", and on an on.

What some of you guys expect from knife makers is just incredible. I have started four businesses, all successful. Try as I might, I can't make the numbers work for knife making. As a hobby, yes. Maybe even a good hobby. As a reliable way to pay your mortgage, car payment, insurance, utilities, cost of kids, and on an on... no way.

I am not from the Oprah generation. I am not going to be a victim, and I also expect a buyer/collector/enthusiast to do some of their own research on anything they pursue. They can make their own judgements, and sometimes getting burned is part of the process. In this situation, as long as the maker seller of any knife is upfront about their processes and the buyer does a bit of homework and asked the right questions (you know, like you should with any meaningful purchase) I don't see any problems with labels.

A long rant from me no doubt, but having gone through this with the professional cabinet and furniture makers about 10 years ago the results still linger. Defining who was a craftsman, a traditional craftsman, and neander (a term favored by those that refused to use power tools) created a lot of ill will. It caused a schism that never healed with some and they quit the private forums and boards that we participated in that was exclusive to begin with, by invitation only. Now the irrelevance of in fighting, determining exact definitions of processes, etc., and determining accurate labels that suited the group is pretty apparent, as what was "new" to the craft then is considered the accepted way of doing things now.

Robert

Robert,
As far as how profitable knife maker can be some days.
The joke is.
As a knife maker what would you do if you won the lottery for 2 million bucks?
Well, I would just keep making knives until all of the money was gone!

 

[Clem Kadiddlehopper]

.... this all seems to come down to who is an is not allowed to sell/advertise/be spoken of in the Custom forums here... given it is a privately owned forum that really does come down to the feeling/wishes of the owner here ?? Beyond that there has to be some "due diligence" by a potential customer on the "maker". No arguing with your definitions or feelings on what is what but, and perhaps I am reading it wrong as it has been a looooong week at work, this seems more geared to how it is manage don this website. Why not Randall ?? Because perhaps the owner here said so...???

Thank you all for discussing this here, it has been very in lighting. Maybe I'll just see what kind of comes up and not push anything, and later on, six months down the road, we can see if anyone comes up with the right idea.
Spark is the owner - he has his way, but he also likes it to go our way.
The Mods here, most all the members and makers here are just great.
Couldn't ask for a better place to hang out.

Thanks again everyone!

I'll lock this thread down now.



































Just kidding.....

.

 

[JR88FAN]

You can call David Curtiss on his cell during business hours (its listed on his site) and he will answer all questions. I've always enjoyed talking with him, just don't call on Sunday. I learned the hard way. (My mistake, David values family time as do I. )

David designs his knives and make everything in house. The last time I spoke to him it was just David and one other guy. The main reason he brought help in was because he had elbow surgery and was down for a spell. The employee is also extremely talented.

Maybe an easier way to post knives is by asking price? That is not open to interpretation. All folders 0-$250, $251-$500, $501-$1000, $1001-$2000, and $2000 plus. The same thing for fixed blades. I know its crazy, but there would be no fuss.

It shouldn't be the Mods job to know all the ins and outs of what is a custom or mid-tech.

+1

Lets stop bringing up David. It's not a secret how he makes his knives, and in my book they are custom...

This topic comes down to doing your research and understanding what you're paying for.

As far as some gray area's on what is or isn't a custom on this forum, that is up to the owner/moderators/rules.

 

[Clem Kadiddlehopper]

+1

Lets stop bringing up David. It's not a secret how he makes his knives, and in my book they are custom...

This topic comes down to doing your research and understanding what you're paying for.

As far as some gray area's on what is or isn't a custom on this forum, that is up to the owner/moderators/rules.

But it doesn't matter to the rest of the knife market uh? Watch the future see how soon this comes up again. ( Not by me though.)

How about if you switch do Dozier, he has few helpers, and his are sold as custom's.
Were do you draw the line with number of helpers? That you go from custom to the Randall category?

 

[Charles Weaver]

Interesting debate for sure.

Could it be because Randall is no longer with us other than his name?

Something doesn't have to be handmade to be custom. It just has to be handmade to be considered handmade.