I want to know the truth.......

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This is a thought provoking thread for sure. Al, I think you make a great case.

I think that part of the problem is that Ken Onion didn't create a "line" between the two - he created a zone between the two that he failed to clearly define.

Another part of the problem is that "Custom" is not the opposite of "Production" - yeah, we all know what we mean here - but think about it. And is "Factory" the same as "Production" ? - not always.
 
I'm not going to imply what is custom or not but many custom makers on the forum farm out the heat treat process to others.
Going to disagree with you, sky horse, although I know there are some makers who do that.

One of the main reasons I buy custom knives is the makers heat treat process, their heat treat.
Whether it be salt pots, temp. controlled kilns, etc.
If a maker can't do his own heat treating I'm not interested.

Sorry OP, I know very little about Curtiss knives.

Doug
 
This is a thought provoking thread for sure. Al, I think you make a great case.

I think that part of the problem is that Ken Onion didn't create a "line" between the two - he created a zone between the two that he failed to clearly define.

Another part of the problem is that "Custom" is not the opposite of "Production" - yeah, we all know what we mean here - but think about it. And is "Factory" the same as "Production" ? - not always.

snippy,
Thank You, points well taken.
To those reading my previous post who would like to mentally insert production in place of factory, I am good with it.
 
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Going to disagree with you, sky horse, although I know there are some makers who do that.

One of the main reasons I buy custom knives is the makers heat treat process, their heat treat.
Whether it be salt pots, temp. controlled kilns, etc.
If a maker can't do his own heat treating I'm not interested.

Sorry OP, I know very little about Curtiss knives.

Doug

I agree with you !!! I will always give a second look to a knife from a maker who knows how to heat treat their own knives!!! I 100% agree and in my mind this skill makes a regular knife maker a true steel artist. A lot of people have mentioned that being able to make an integral is the pinnacle of a knife maker but I think heat treating or forging the steel is the true pinnacle of any knife maker. Maybe I'm wrong I can barely take my knives apart lol
 
how can you call it a custom though when a CAD is involved? even if you code it yourself, the machine is shaping the steel, not your skill and power.

custom imo only applies when they fold the steel down themselves and handle every aspect of the process all the way to the finish, by hand. Otherwise you produce steel that is soulless and you can feel the dead, lifeless blade in your hand. when it is crafted with care, it comes to life.

Hello Gentleman,
These questions/answers get a little more blurred each day.

I design each of my culinary knives, hand profile the shape, Have it HTed at Paul Bos Hand grind and finish all bevels. Fit and shape the handle to my customers specifications.

After it becomes a established model. I have my water Jet man put into a CAD peogram the profile, relief holes and pinch grip holes and pin holes depending on what's on that model and cut out the blanks.

That's how I have CAD utilized on my one man shop custom knives.

As I always state, Be forthright in your maker process and let your customer's decide if its meets their criteria of a Sole Authorship, Custom knife.

The other problem with you definition my friend is,
Did your custom maker smelt the blooms of the steel from raw ore he is using in your'e folded steel custom knife? Probably not.
 
And I say far too many aficionados get way too caught up in the semantics and definitions to the detriment of their own enjoyment of the hobby.
 
This is where they stuck the term - HANDMADE in on you/us..... It's like Custom Motor Cycles, even though they are not building a certain bike for a certain customer, to they're specs. It is still considered a custom bike. Why? Because it was hand made from scratch, and is one of a kind. So it is a custom bike....

If a maker is going to use a mill, water jet, CNC or monkeys to make his knives. That's fine, Just make sure not to produce them in large quantities, and NOT tell me they are custom made.

Regardless of the means a knife maker uses to manufacture a knife, in my mind if others have and are using the same knife I am, they are not custom. Perhaps limited production, but not custom. In my mind a CUSTOM knife is made is made to the CUSTOMer's requirements/specifications --- I mean, that's what custom really means.
 
Going to disagree with you, sky horse, although I know there are some makers who do that.

One of the main reasons I buy custom knives is the makers heat treat process, their heat treat.
Whether it be salt pots, temp. controlled kilns, etc.
If a maker can't do his own heat treating I'm not interested.

Sorry OP, I know very little about Curtiss knives.

Doug
Not in disagreement at all Doug,just posing a question. Interesting thread because I honestly don't know what is truly considered custom and I've seen fixed blade knives for sale in the custom knife maker section where they stated heat treat done by Bos ect? :confused:
 
I think a lot of you are missing my whole point here. I'll try one more time. You have TWO knife makers.

Knife Maker - A. Makes custom knives - ( That is what everyone in the knife community calls them.)

Knife Maker - B. Makes custom knives - Pretty much the same way as knife maker A. - (But they are NOT considered to be custom knives in the knife community.)

So here we have two makers, making pretty much the same knives. But the knives don't fall into the same class.

I knew some folks would look at this as beating a dead horse, or not really care about it.
But I do! True knife makers who learn the craft completely. I can not imaging the dedication, devotion one would have to put into knife making. To become successful at it, and make a living.

The decision to be made here is? If we let maker A. be called a custom knife, then we need to let maker B. be called a custom knife.
And a collectors would pretty much know this, and make their choices on those principals.

Or start classifying knives A. as not custom, and also knives B. stay as none custom.

Do guys get that?

If not - I can only imagine what will be going on in 10 years.:eek:

And it will be all Ken Onions fault.....:D:rolleyes:


.
 
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of course not rhino-- but he does shape it from the steel-- I do not expect him to be able to afford his own smelter and ore suppliers-- I expect a custom knife maker to begin with purchased unshaped billets, the same way a pot maker gets big clumps of unworked clay.

if its a purchased blank, yeah I expect him to say" this is not entirely custom" since they are purchasing a blank; I understand the distinction you are making though, as it is not a "mass production" blank you are doing but a CAD drawing that cuts an original piece for you, so I will say you are justified in calling it "fully custom" even with a cad-- since you are not saying "hand made" I like both, personally, but that is nothing against the way you do things.

I do not really like modern knives though ; and for a modern knife, if you designed the shape and then put it to cut in a CAD- I do admit this is still fully custom by definition of course.

@pocket and agree this is about giving credit to the skill necessary between the different kinds of custom work-- someone who works from nothing and shapes a blade does more work than someone who uses high tech machines to do some of the work-- even if the high tech stuff makes a better product, it probably takes more dedication for the blacksmith who does it all by hand.
 
Hello Gentleman,
These questions/answers get a little more blurred each day.

Yes the do indeed. The problem is that as any craft/discipline grows and changes, there are those that cannot accept the changes. The idea of NOT using technology when available is just silly.

I have been a dedicated, professional woodworker that pays my bills with my craft. I have had my own company doing so for about 30 years now.

You guys need to see outside of the tiny, tiny, miniscule world of knife making and get a grip on reality. Do I still use handsaws when a power saw will cut better? No way. Do I use a hammer and nail (although QUITE proficient with them) when I can shoot a nail or brad? Not a chance. Do I paint a house exterior with a brush when I can use my airless? Nope. Do I use a brace and bit or egg beater drill when I can use a power drill to drill a hole? No again. Do I use a plumb bob and line to plumb a wall, or a 4' bubble level? Sorry, have to use the level.

When making furniture or cabinetry, do I harvest my own wood and dry it under my own supervision, or do I buy it? I buy it, even if I have to finish plane it to dimension. Do I make my own plywood to be used in certain areas of the cabinet? No. Do I make my own glue as it was done as little as 50 years ago, or do I buy an new, technically engineered adhesive. Down the store I go. I don't make my own nails as they used to, don't know how to make a screw, nor do I make any of the hardware installed on my cabinets.

Likewise when finishing a cabinet or project, I don't make my own clear coats. I buy lacquers, shellacs and polyurethanes premixed and apply as is required or requested. (You can easily make your own shellac, and by the way and it was a treasured finish for centuries.) Further, I don't make my own paint (easily done, instructions abound on the internet), nor do I make my own natural bristle brushes to apply it. I don't distill my own mineral spirits to clean my equipment nor to I make my own turpentine in the backyard as they did years ago.

Yet with all of my shortcomings, I have had enough referral business that I haven't advertised in years. For the last 15 - 18 years all my business has been referrals ONLY. And strangely enough to some here, folks are fine with my level of participation in my processes. They know I take an enormous amount of pride in my work and that I stand behind everything I do. But they know I don't stand at the shaper for hours and hours making their moldings from raw stock (unless paid to do it) so that they will know I had my hand on every step of the process.

As I always state, Be forthright in your maker process and let your customer's decide if its meets their criteria of a Sole Authorship, Custom knife.

The other problem with you definition my friend is,
Did your custom maker smelt the blooms of the steel from raw ore he is using in your'e folded steel custom knife? Probably not.

After a period of time, if success strikes a small business, the owner will need help. One simply cannot do it all. Expecting a knife maker to sit and work on one knife at a time from scratching the pattern on a piece of metal to tanning his own leather for a sheath after making the sinew twine to sew it together is unrealistic. It would also lead to starvation for the knife maker and unaffordable knives for all.

I would prefer to know that Paul Bos guaranteed my heat treat rather than a guy working in half his garage with a forge and a bucket of oil. I would much rather see a professionally stabilized burl product on my knife instead of something done in the back yard with a home brew solution in a high pressure paint pot. I would rather see round pins in the scales over hand hammered pins forged from small pieces of stock. I like solid, one piece ferrules over rolled flat stock. I also like modern epoxies over hide glues, and don't expect a maker to cast brass finger guards or butts, nor do I expect them to harvest and treat bone before using it on a knife.

In cabinet making and in knife making (and in any other "craft" discipline) it all becomes a matter of degrees of different processes, often defined by those not involved in the craft that decide what is "hand made", "sole authorship", "completely hand made", and on an on.

What some of you guys expect from knife makers is just incredible. I have started four businesses, all successful. Try as I might, I can't make the numbers work for knife making. As a hobby, yes. Maybe even a good hobby. As a reliable way to pay your mortgage, car payment, insurance, utilities, cost of kids, and on an on... no way.

I am not from the Oprah generation. I am not going to be a victim, and I also expect a buyer/collector/enthusiast to do some of their own research on anything they pursue. They can make their own judgements, and sometimes getting burned is part of the process. In this situation, as long as the maker seller of any knife is upfront about their processes and the buyer does a bit of homework and asked the right questions (you know, like you should with any meaningful purchase) I don't see any problems with labels.

A long rant from me no doubt, but having gone through this with the professional cabinet and furniture makers about 10 years ago the results still linger. Defining who was a craftsman, a traditional craftsman, and neander (a term favored by those that refused to use power tools) created a lot of ill will. It caused a schism that never healed with some and they quit the private forums and boards that we participated in that was exclusive to begin with, by invitation only. Now the irrelevance of in fighting, determining exact definitions of processes, etc., and determining accurate labels that suited the group is pretty apparent, as what was "new" to the craft then is considered the accepted way of doing things now.

Robert
 
I think a lot of you are missing my whole point here. I'll try one more time.

Al ... from my point of view, no need to try again at all! I understood what you were trying to say from the get go. A maker can consider a knife to be whatever variant he/she so desires. An owner can do the same. I have one of Arno Berhard's folders which he advertises as, and considers to be, like all of his other knives .... custom knives. However, it looks identical (in every way) to all of his other folders of the same type (he only makes two currently). Is it custom? He thinks it is ... and I don't really care. Right now there is a Shirogorov 95 (a regular model, not one from the Shirogorov's custom shop) in the for sale by individuals custom exchange. Is it a custom or mid-tech? I don't know. The thing to note ( and what is really important to Al's question ) is how do Spark and the Mods feel about it being posted in the custom area. Either it was overlooked by the mods or the mods feel it's a custom. So ... what is really needed to answer Al's question is what is the definitive answer from Spark or a "consensus" from the Mods as to what is .... and what isn't a custom. That, as we can see, is very ambiguous at best.
 
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I think that what the Mods are doing is great, and as they continue to move knives to the proper section, members are learning....

It is important to seperate Mid-Techs from customs, and as a communtity it's in our best interest to learn and know the difference.

That's not to say that things won't be posted in the wrong section. I think a lot of people equate price with custom.
Price is a very misleading way to judge anything, as hype and supply play a huge role....

Getting to the point; I think we should have a sale section in the exchange for Mid-Techs only.

It would help the learning curve for those that can't differentiate, and seperate them from the really busy production thread.

Mid-Techs are very popular, growing in number, and should get their own spot.
 
I think that what the Mods are doing is great, and as they continue to move knives to the proper section, members are learning....

It is important to seperate Mid-Techs from customs, and as a communtity it's in our best interest to learn and know the difference.

That's not to say that things won't be posted in the wrong section. I think a lot of people equate price with custom.
Price is a very misleading way to judge anything, as hype and supply play a huge role....

Getting to the point; I think we should have a sale section in the exchange for Mid-Techs only.

It would help the learning curve for those that can't differentiate, and seperate them from the really busy production thread.

Mid-Techs are very popular, growing in number, and should get their own spot.

Do you think Randall knives would be added to that category, as Mid-Tech's? Cause I do not consider Randall's as production/factory knives. I think they are custom or Mid-Tech, from all what has been said here.
 
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Do you think Randall knives would be added to that category, as Mid-Tech's? Cause I do not consider Randall's as production/factory knives. I think they are custom, from all what has been said here.

I don't know too much about Randall knives, I tend to research that I am interested in, and that's not to say they don't fit in the custom category.

I think the point is, where a knife fits in the exchange is determined by BF rules and the Moderators.

If a specific brand fits with what their guidlines are for a custom, then of course it should be sold in the custom knives part of the exchange.
 
Great thread. I want to know the truth.......
Hell I don't know :confused: :)
[video=youtube;V8ynOPMNqUk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8ynOPMNqUk[/video]
 
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Maybe something like this??????

Custom/Handmade knives
- ONE or TWO Maker - can use any machines, do it any way they want, out source any thing they want, but the grinds and build.

Mid-Tech
- Any amount of people, making any amount of knives, any way they want, but with a lot of hands on, and high quality.

Production/Factory Knives
- Knives made by machine mostly, very high volume, very moderate quality, mass produced.
 
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Randall's use to fall under the term "bench made" , which was a small stop of people each responsible mainly for a certain piece of the knife.

Alas, no one is ever going to develop definitive answer to this, it's been argued for decades, and still hasn't been solved to anyone's satisfaction.
 
Do you think Randall knives would be added to that category, as Mid-Tech's? Cause I do not consider Randall's as production/factory knives. I think they are custom or Mid-Tech, from all what has been said here.

Curious, what about, Busse knives? They are hand ground, yet you place them in factory/production area. I think the reason they consider Randall production is that they are essential mass produced, more that a typical maker would employ. How many employees does Randall have? I think that is where the difference comes in! Some makers are using CNC, waterjetting, but they are a 1 or 2 man show, not 20-30!!!
 
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