I want to know the truth.......

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Pocketknifesheaths said:
But it doesn't matter to the rest of the knife market uh? Watch the future see how soon this comes up again. ( Not by me though.)

How about if you switch do Dozier, he has few helpers, and his are sold as custom's.
Were do you draw the line with number of helpers? That you go from custom to the Randall category?
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I wrote 'on this forum' for a very good reason. What is deemed a custom or a Mid-Tech on BF is irrelevant to me other than to help other members who might not be aware, or to not have to see a knife in the wrong category (I can live with that though)

I don't own or make the rules for this site.

Personally, I know what I buy and how it's made.
 
Pocketknifesheaths said:
All Curtiss Knives are 100% built by hand. We pride ourselves on building some of the most high quality hand tools available.

Curtiss Knives - form what it says above, doesn't use water jet to cut out the knives?

And on the next quote - it says he does.

Randall knives are all made by hand 100%--------- So why are they not included in custom knives?
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I'm confused, why are you so hung up on the water jetting / CNC? Its simply a technology for getting a better and more precise product. I don't understand how that invalidates anything.
 
Pocketknifesheaths said:
You are missing my point - Why are some in customs and others are not? Like I said, really don't care how they are done.
Curtiss & Randall are both producing a hand made knife - Tell me why Curtiss's are custom and Randall's are not?

THAT is what I want to know? this is not me, it's the knife market, I'm not splitting hairs, just looking at facts.
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I suppose the better question is, why do you care? Are you under the impression that Randall's are somehow undervalued? Or are Cutiss' overvalued at Randalls expense?

The categorization, to me, is completely irrelevant. The more germane question is: do you like the knife and are you willing to pay for it?
 
You have not read the whole thread or you are missing the point I was trying to make.
I think some here get it, and some don't.
I'll just let it go for now, and let folks think about what has been discussed here.

Have a great day!
 
There is lots of misinformation and ignorance of history in this thread. I hope some of the information below will help clarify this issue.

Knifemakers have been having parts made or services rendered outside their shops for decades before Ken coined MidTech. Just because you don't know about it does not mean it did not happen.

The issue of "CNC work" previously was the issue of "using a pantograph". Some people will always have issues with technology. The easy solution for these people is to buy knives made the way you want. Don't try and tell other people what to buy. Don't try to force knifemakers into categorizing their knives. Trying to define what knives are in what category is futile. I think it is more important for a knifemaker to be clear with collectors how their knives are made. The collector can then determine for themselves if the knife is work the asking price.

Here is one answer to the question of what is the difference between Curtis and Randall knives.
• Dave Curtis designs, machines, grinds, programs and directs people to help build his knives.
• Bo Randall designed but hasn't worked on a knife in almost 25 years because he is dead.

Al, rather than asking Spark to redefine knife categories, why not ask Spark to redefine sheath makers as knife suppliers? That would generate income for BladeForums and help clarify orange title as just knifemakers.

Chuck
 
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Alpha Knife Supply said:
Here is one answer to the question of what is the difference between Curtis and Randall knives.
• Dave Curtis designs, machines, grinds, programs and directs people to help build his knives.
• Bo Randall designed but hasn't worked on a knife in almost 25 years because he is dead.


Chuck
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So Randall died and his knives automatically become none customs, just because he died and stopped making them?
Bob Loveless has passed on, are his knives going to become none customs now that he is dead and not making them?
Or do we have different standards on how this works?

You all need to get Randall & Curtis out of your heads - They were just examples of a point that I was trying to make.
Sorry for all the confusion.
 
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Damn Chuck, you are dead on brother!!

Al, the ones built by Bo Randall before he died are Customs. The ones built after in a factory by 25 employees who are following his designs. Maybe not Customs? Al, I admire your convictions and pride in Randalls. For what its worth, you've opened this guys eyes.

-Sean
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
Robert,
As far as how profitable knife maker can be some days.
The joke is.
As a knife maker what would you do if you won the lottery for 2 million bucks?
Well, I would just keep making knives until all of the money was gone!;)
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You got me on that one. I'm still chuckling!

In my business ( remodel/rehab/repair ) we have a bit of different slant.

"How do a make a small fortune in the contracting business?"

"Start out with a large one!"

Like a lot of businesses, the recession we have is hard on folks like me that sell high priced items that folks want, but don't need. I do a lot or repairs and big ticket maintenance items these days, but I am down to a couple of bathrooms and a couple of kitchens remodels a year. Tough sleddin' in this industry, no doubt. But... I am making it, and almost none of my fellow contractors in my line of work have.

When I catch a post here and there about a guy that is going full time into knife making, I know they must have a working spouse with a good job, come from money, or have no idea what they are in for (kind of like contracting!). Every time I go to a gun show here in S. Texas someone is trying their hand at it. ALL are hobby guys, diluting the market in their quest for a little extra money to pay their bills.

The whole knife market as well as the needed skill sets changed when knives started selling with out guards and without pommels. Simple pieces of shaped materials glued/pinned to a blade was good enough, and that has become a great deal of the market. Cutting, shaping, fitting and soldering a guard is an entire skill in itself! One time I listened to three knife makers at a show working through their processes with one another, each was different, and each admitted they were hit and miss when it came to soldering. Pinning a pommel wasn't big for them, and one guy even said he threaded the tang and screwed his pommels on so there was no pin to worry about.

Living with Short, Ruple and other like him within a 30 minute drive from my house, we used to see all those guys at shows about 25, 30 years ago on a regular basis as knife makers were a rare breed. Now it seems (just like anyone with a hammer and saw is a contractor!) that knife makers are everywhere.

Like I said, a great hobby, but I wouldn't want to support my family with it. Unless I win the lottery... :D

Robert
 
Pocketknifesheaths said:
So Randall died and his knives automatically become none customs, just because he died and stopped making them?
Bob Loveless as passed on, are his knives going to become none customs now that he is dead and not making them?
Or do we have different standards on how this works?
Click to expand...
Bob Loveless told everyone Jim Merritt was his knifemaking partner. Who did Bo Randall say his partner(s) were?

Bob Loveless knives are being made by the person who worked with Bob for 25 years. How many people are making Randall knives?

What makes anyone think they should be the arbiter of what defines custom, MidTech, benchmade, handmade, factory, etc? Envy? Money? Control?

Chuck
 
Speaking only for myself as a customer,outsourcing heat treatment isn't a big deal,especially if it's done by someone like Bos. I respect a maker that is transparent and honest enough to list that information.
 
Randall company makes knives the way companies have made knives for the last couple hundred years from Soligen to Sheffield to America. Good quality benchmade handcrafted knives.

But not the same as an Artisan making knives they craft themselves or oversee others in their employee crafting.

The "No True Scotsman Fallacy" is alive and well in this thread.

It really is not that difficult. If you want to know if a knife is a custom handmade knife then ask..."What is the name of the person/people who made this?"

In this day in age there are custom knife makers like Grimso turning out high quality knives. While they are not solely handcrafted they are still custom knife makers.

Once you get into mass production then you typically are no longer viewed as an Artisan but as a company.
 
Alpha Knife Supply said:
There is lots of misinformation and ignorance of history in this thread. I hope some of the information below will help clarify this issue.

Knifemakers have been having parts made or services rendered outside their shops for decades before Ken coined MidTech. Just because you don't know about it does not mean it did not happen.

The issue of "CNC work" previously was the issue of "using a pantograph". Some people will always have issues with technology. The easy solution for these people is to buy knives made the way you want. Don't try and tell other people what to buy. Don't try to force knifemakers into categorizing their knives. Trying to define what knives are in what category is futile. I think it is more important for a knifemaker to be clear with collectors how their knives are made. The collector can then determine for themselves if the knife is work the asking price.

Here is one answer to the question of what is the difference between Curtis and Randall knives.
• Dave Curtis designs, machines, grinds, programs and directs people to help build his knives.
• Bo Randall designed but hasn't worked on a knife in almost 25 years because he is dead.

Al, rather than asking Spark to redefine knife categories, why not ask Spark to redefine sheath makers as knife suppliers? That would generate income for BladeForums and help clarify orange title as just knifemakers.

Chuck
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Chuck, I agree with you on all points, except that it is important to categorize knives, just as we categorize everything.

When you go to the grocery store the apples are not mixed together with the oranges....

I think the main point is that when you are looking for a 'custom knife' you go to the 'custom knife' section of the exchange.

This is not a classification based on anything more than where to find something.

The OP just wants to know if Randall knives by the forums definition of 'custom' belong in that area...

In terms of what individual knife makers are doing that we do or do not know about in how they produce a knife, that is an individual issue that matters to some and not to others.
 
Ken Onion makes custom knives.....and he makes mid-techs, and factories make knives that he designed.

Tom Mayo makes custom knives....each handle has holes that he drills and countersinks, each blade is cut out by him, and sharpened, and high tech stainless has NEVER required the heat treat by the maker in order to qualify as custom, it is part and parcel of using the steel, not all makers have a heat treat oven and hardening schedule that works or a Rockwell tester....all necessary to heat treat these steels....just have a good heat treat company. Tom also makes mid-tech knives and factories have done Tom Mayo designs.

Randall Knives is a company that makes hand crafted factory knives with options, just like Ruana Knives, or Spartan Knives, Chris Reeve Knives or Busse Knives. There may be a custom component to it as in CRK or Busse....they have a custom shop that will take Factory designs and "Customize" them.....and while it is MORE custom it is not quite custom.

My name is Steven Garsson, and while I will not seek political office or try to define custom knives, I have a very good understanding on what they are and I buy custom knives much more often than I buy mid-tech knives or factory knives.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
To me it is simple, bladeforums places knives, in most cases, as the maker describes their business. Randall is aknife company per their descriptions, they are sold in factory for sale sub forum; Curtis is self described as a maker, thus he is sold in the custom area. Not to hard to understand.


There are many knives sold under one maker's name that are more production than not, why pick on this poor guy?
 
"A rose by any other name...."

It doesn't matter what you call them, so long as I can find them. Just about every maker started at some point by producing "custom knives" and many, like Buck knives, started adding help until they ended up with a production line. It is up to the collector to become familiar with whatever they collect and to know how their market distinguishes and prices the products bearing that brand. This is a very old and tired topic, but no matter how many times we pull it out and drag it through the dirt we are going to end up where we started.

n2s
 
not2sharp said:
"A rose by any other name...."

It doesn't matter what you call them, so long as I can find them. Just about every maker started at some point by producing "custom knives" and many, like Buck knives, started adding help until they ended up with a production line. It is up to the collector to become familiar with whatever they collect and to know how their market distinguishes and prices the products bearing that brand. This is a very old and tired topic, but no matter how many times we pull it out and drag it through the dirt we are going to end up where we started.

n2s
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It seems that the majority doesn't care about this subject. I'll close this down and be done with it.

But it is odd that the subject keeps coming up for some reason. And I still see it getting worse as time goes on.
And it will probably come up again, just not by me.

Thanks!
 
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