i went and did a very bad thing...

Knifeclerk said:
I think that a big part of the price difference will come from what the company is. For instance, Buck has a warranty department, a customer service department, and a quality controll department among other things. That equates to a lot of people making sure you get a quality product, and a lot more people making sure you are satisfied with it. Go ahead and break your Mtech. Call the company. See what happens. Can you even find a number for the company?
Click to expand...

And Gerber has a Lets-copy-designs department too (ref: http://www.gerbergear.com/product.php?model=1433 ). So much for the argument against the Chinese.

-- Vince.
 
Sounds like you had fun with the new knife. I'm glad you are pleased. I have some Boker auto's model AK-74 that I bought for a pittance and have stashed in the garage and tackle box as beaters. So far so good. They are big and sturdy (and very quick) and hold an edge well.

I have a few Protech's, Microtechs, and Benchmade autos that I think are better so don't anyone start flaming me.

I admire you for stating your opinion. That should be the most important part of a forum. I don't think anyone has all the answers although a few seem to have all the B.S.

Let's give your new knife a true test (they all look good new).

How many cuts of 1/2" cheap junky polyester (the nasty yellow stuff) rope will it do before dulling out on you and how many will your buck do. Start out with both sharpened as best you can and see how they compare.

That's the test I would like to see.

This is a funny thread. I don't remember all the bitching when Spyderco was selling all those knives made in Seki-Japan. Unfortunately I don't think most folks realize how much money U.S. companies have invested in overseas operations. The world is definately shrinking and we are all in the same pot of stew, IMHO.

As for exploitation I don't think anyone should flap until they see to conditions where a worker lives and then question him as to whether or not he/she feels "exploited". I think it is very naive (and arrogant) to project your basis of reference to areas about which you are ignorant, IMHO again.
 
$8 for a knife eh? Hmmm...

Just spent that on an Opinel #7 which I then modified a little - just to get personal.

Wonder what an Opinel with G10 and teflon spacers would look like? or cost for that matter?

:D

Joe
 
When I was a boy cheap knives were made of 1095 (and so were most of the more expensive knives). They weren't stolen designs; they were traditional patterns. I used to buy a cheap knife and whittle wood scales for it and clean up the bolster fit and I'd have myself a nice knife -- I'm sure I wasn't getting a reasonable hourly wage for my work, but I didn't think of it as work; I thought of it as fun.

More recently ... one of my local stores has a basket of cheap knives next to the cash register. If I go through the whole basket I can always find one that locks up tight -- for now. But the blade is made of age-hardened cheese, just like all the others in the basket. You say you're going to re-heattreat yours -- I guess that means you have access to the equipment to heattreat stainless steels and you're going to assume it's 440A and see what happens. It'll be interesting to see how that turns out; please let us know.

No matter how much work you put into it, though, it'll still be a stolen design. :(
 
DGG said:
Let's give your new knife a true test (they all look good new).

How many cuts of 1/2" cheap junky polyester (the nasty yellow stuff) rope will it do before dulling out on you and how many will your buck do. Start out with both sharpened as best you can and see how they compare.

That's the test I would like to see.
Click to expand...

i have no doubt that the blade isnt up to par with the paul bos heat-treated ATS-34 blade of the buck SBT. then again, just the blade upgrade on that knife costs the consumer $50 alone. (and add $15 for the G10 scales).
however, ive always been one to modify and customize everything i own. sometimes, with a $100+ knife, you dont want to mess with it because it represents a significant investment (im a starving artist, $100 is significant enough to me to deeply consider #%&!ing it up). with an $8 knife, even if i fudge the heat treat its no big deal.

i am aware that the blade - specifically the heat-treat (or lack thereof) - is going to be the weak point of this knife. the handle fit and finish and sturdiness, however, is actually easily on par with CRKT, buck, gerber, etc quality standards - even surpassing some of these knives i own, and that cost me many times the price. there is no flimsiness, the liners are thick, precisely ground and the lock engages perfectly on the tang with no play whatsoever. the scales are immaculately flush all around, unlike many production knives where theyre precut and just bolted on, these look to have been ground with the liners for a custom fit. the pivot bolt is good quality, and there are teflon washers exactly like more expensive knives at the pivot. the only hardware i do not like are the allen bolts that hold the clip and scales on - theyre mild steel and strip very easily, however this is not a factor in normal use (i only encountered it because i removed the clip in order to properly radius the edges of the G10 scales).

i am sure there will be a quality difference in each knife. however, this is true of all companies (ive railed in frustration after receiving CRKTs, bucks, SOGs, gerbers, etc in the mail and noticed some defect such as an off-centre edge, liners engaging too far on the tang, messy scales with molded plastic 'edges' hanging out, etc). you can eliminate this in one of two ways:
1. go buy the knife at a convention or store, that way you can hand-pick the one you buy. unfortunately theyre usuallly priced around the $18 range at these place.
2. order two, or three. at $8 a pop theyre dirt cheap. if one of the ones you order has some glaring defect, you can just use it for spare parts, possibly have a second blade for heat treating, or just throw it in your trunk or tool/tacklebox for a beater utility knife. the way these knives are designed is that even if the liner engages all the way over on the tang (phil elmore pointed this out on some of his samples), the detent ball is large enough to actually keep it from moving past the tang, and keeps it in the correct position. the worst case scenario is youll have a hair of forward/back blade play.

as for the blade, i can imagine worse steels than 440A. with a good heat treat this will be a very solid knife, one that i will easily put my faith in. im moving in a few days, so i might not have the time, but unless it starts pouring rain today ill go out and do a proper heat-treat on the blade, regrind it, and well see how it performs then. this might be beyond the scope of some buyers, but honestly its a fun little project and something you want to attempt with a cheap knife like this as opposed to an expensive one.

cheers,
-gabriel
 
Blackhearted said:
i have no doubt that the blade isnt up to par with the paul bos heat-treated ATS-34 blade of the buck SBT.
Click to expand...

If you apply a high relief grind to the edge and leave it quite coarse, it will readily out perform a stock Buck on poly cutting both in terms of initial cutting ability and likely lifetime of the cutting edge. The user can effect performance just as much as the steel.

In general most people realize that the performance of knockoffs can be quite high price wise, and you also can't expect to see similar prices from high end manufacturers. If you see a guy selling TV's out of his car next to Walmart you can't really expect Walmart to match his prices.

Many of the people on the forums are friendly with the makers/manufacturers and thus supporting people who rob them is more than a little frowned upon, not to mention other aspects such as the labor conditions and so forth.

-Cliff
 
I agree that "fit and finish" are important with any knife but the reason I buy it is to "cut". But if the knife doesn't cut then the rest is superfluous. I thought it would be interesting to inexpensively and easily make a test. It is easier to fake "fit and finish" I think than to fake blade cutting ability.

I'm not a big fan of concrete block bashing and redwood tree chopping down testing although it will sure demonstrate whether to not the blade will chip or the lock will fail. I'm more interested in good old fashion cutting ability.

If both sharpened knives knock off 50 cuts then call it a draw and really be happy with your knife.

I have seen some very good looking knives that were absolutely garbage when it came to edge holding ability.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
If you apply a high relief grind to the edge and leave it quite coarse, it will readily out perform a stock Buck on poly cutting both in terms of initial cutting ability and likely lifetime of the cutting edge. The user can effect performance just as much as the steel.

In general most people realize that the performance of knockoffs can be quite high price wise, and you also can't expect to see similar prices from high end manufacturers. If you see a guy selling TV's out of his car next to Walmart you can't really expect Walmart to match his prices.

Many of the people on the forums are friendly with the makers/manufacturers and thus supporting people who rob them is more than a little frowned upon, not to mention other aspects such as the labor conditions and so forth.

-Cliff
Click to expand...

then perhaps some of these companies should make their prices more competitive.
i understand that knives produced in china have to pay far less in labour costs, virtually no R&D costs, and have no customer service departments. however, i also feel that many US manufacturers are milking us for every last cent on production knives merely on an assumption of quality/ethics.
western companies are not above ripping off other designs - look at gerber. more reputable and highly praised companies like benchmade have done some nasty things in the past as well, as discussed in these very forums.
so yeah, when a customer pays $100 US for a mass-produced buck SBT then they should expect a little better fit and finish than thin unfinished stamped liners and moulded unfitted plastic scales that would look more at home on a dollar-store spatula. these same customers shouldnt have to pay an extra $15 for G10 scales when these can be profitable on an $8 knife.
my gripe isnt with the blade on said SBT - its definitely high quality. but surely out of $100 they could at least attain the level of quality in the handle as an $8 chinese knife. i dont care where the buck handle is made - they could be produced by slave worker midgets under a totalitarian government in timbuck#%&!ingtu for all i care, as long as it has an acceptable level of quality.

i dont think im going to settle for just having a reputable manufacturers name stamped on a knife anymore. ive come to expect a certain level of fit and finish on $50-100 knives through spending thousands of dollars of my hard earned cash on them. that acceptance has been shaken (hell, shattered) - that level has just been surpassed by an $8 knife, and honestly it pisses me. i think weve all accepted paying this much for knives and with each generation of knives we accept less and less in terms of quality and fit and finish. manufacturers are moving to cheaper and cheaper materials and production processed and yet prices dont seem to be dropping - theyre going up if anything. take CRKT for example - many of their knives moved down to AUS-8, then AUS-6, and many of their models are now using AUS-4. pitiful. their liners are literally cookie-cutter, and the plastic scales are just made in molds and bolted on in a factory. yet for this we gladly fork over $50-70? wtf?

yeah, this has opened my eyes because i totally expected this chinese cheapo knife to be a complete POS. i was ready to bash the hell out of it on these forums. i never would have dreamed that it would make me expect more from the knives ive been routinely buying for years, yet it has. buck, CRKT, gerber, SOG, and other mainstream manufacturers should be ashamed of themselves. the next time i fork over $100 for a production name brand knife it had better have at least comparable fit and finish to an $8 chinese knockoff. i dont care what rationalizations people give for it not having it, if im going to spend that much of my hard earned money western manufacturers can at least reach this level of fit and finish for over 10 times the price. surely that adequately covers their production costs and sizeable profit margin.

cheers,
-gabriel
 
Cliff Stamp said:
If you apply a high relief grind to the edge and leave it quite coarse, it will readily out perform a stock Buck on poly cutting both in terms of initial cutting ability and likely lifetime of the cutting edge. The user can effect performance just as much as the steel.

In general most people realize that the performance of knockoffs can be quite high price wise, and you also can't expect to see similar prices from high end manufacturers. If you see a guy selling TV's out of his car next to Walmart you can't really expect Walmart to match his prices.

Many of the people on the forums are friendly with the makers/manufacturers and thus supporting people who rob them is more than a little frowned upon, not to mention other aspects such as the labor conditions and so forth.

-Cliff
Click to expand...

I have a dumb question. If both are sharpened the same way, course/fine whatever and the user is testing them with about equal pressure why isn't that a fair test of cutting ability?
 
Blackhearted said:
then perhaps some of these companies should make their prices more competitive.
i understand that knives produced in china have to pay far less in labour costs, virtually no R&D costs, and have no customer service departments. however, i also feel that many US manufacturers are milking us for every last cent on production knives merely on an assumption of quality/ethics.
western companies are not above ripping off other designs - look at gerber. more reputable and highly praised companies like benchmade have done some nasty things in the past as well, as discussed in these very forums.
so yeah, when a customer pays $100 US for a mass-produced buck SBT then they should expect a little better fit and finish than thin unfinished stamped liners and moulded unfitted plastic scales that would look more at home on a dollar-store spatula. these same customers shouldnt have to pay an extra $15 for G10 scales when these can be profitable on an $8 knife.
my gripe isnt with the blade on said SBT - its definitely high quality. but surely out of $100 they could at least attain the level of quality in the handle as an $8 chinese knife. i dont care where the buck handle is made - they could be produced by slave worker midgets under a totalitarian government in timbuck#%&!ingtu for all i care, as long as it has an acceptable level of quality.

i dont think im going to settle for just having a reputable manufacturers name stamped on a knife anymore. ive come to expect a certain level of fit and finish on $50-100 knives through spending thousands of dollars of my hard earned cash on them. that acceptance has been shaken (hell, shattered) - that level has just been surpassed by an $8 knife, and honestly it pisses me. i think weve all accepted paying this much for knives and with each generation of knives we accept less and less in terms of quality and fit and finish. manufacturers are moving to cheaper and cheaper materials and production processed and yet prices dont seem to be dropping - theyre going up if anything. take CRKT for example - many of their knives moved down to AUS-8, then AUS-6, and many of their models are now using AUS-4. pitiful. their liners are literally cookie-cutter, and the plastic scales are just made in molds and bolted on in a factory. yet for this we gladly fork over $50-70? wtf?

yeah, this has opened my eyes because i totally expected this chinese cheapo knife to be a complete POS. i was ready to bash the hell out of it on these forums. i never would have dreamed that it would make me expect more from the knives ive been routinely buying for years, yet it has. buck, CRKT, gerber, SOG, and other mainstream manufacturers should be ashamed of themselves. the next time i fork over $100 for a production name brand knife it had better have at least comparable fit and finish to an $8 chinese knockoff. i dont care what rationalizations people give for it not having it, if im going to spend that much of my hard earned money western manufacturers can at least reach this level of fit and finish for over 10 times the price. surely that adequately covers their production costs and sizeable profit margin.


"?
cheers,
-gabriel
Click to expand...



Okay, but will the less expensive knife still cut well? If not than it is just a well made trinket. Unless you test it you will never know the truth (it may be out there).
 
DGG said:
If both sharpened knives knock off 50 cuts then call it a draw and really be happy with your knife.

I have seen some very good looking knives that were absolutely garbage when it came to edge holding ability.
Click to expand...

this is kindof a pointless test. ive already stated the kerambit came quite dull out of the box (although phil elmore stated his test models all came shaving sharp). however, i could put a 10 degree edge on it with an extra course stone, leaving it micro-serrated, and itll outcut anything on poly rope. tests like this come down to sharpening technique and edge angle more than anything - hell cliff sharpened a mild steel tension bar from a chainlink fence and had some excellent cutting performance from it. doesnt mean its a great knife :)

440 steel is 440 steel. properly heat treated and ground i am confident that this will perform well. even without user heat treating it cuts well, everything is up to how you sharpen it. at no point am i saying that i imagine it performs anywhere near the same as the ATS-34 buck. just the blade upgrade on that knife costs 6x the price of the kerambit.

if only a single person reading this thread says to themselves 'hey, an $8 chinese knife can have superior fit and finish to a $100 american mass produced knife, then perhaps i should be expecting more the next time i fork over $100' then ive made my point.

cheers,
-gabriel
 
Blackhearted said:
this is kindof a pointless test. ive already stated the kerambit came quite dull out of the box (although phil elmore stated his test models all came shaving sharp). however, i could put a 10 degree edge on it with an extra course stone, leaving it micro-serrated, and itll outcut anything on poly rope. tests like this come down to sharpening technique and edge angle more than anything - hell cliff sharpened a mild steel tension bar from a chainlink fence and had some excellent cutting performance from it. doesnt mean its a great knife :)

440 steel is 440 steel. properly heat treated and ground i am confident that this will perform well. even without user heat treating it cuts well, everything is up to how you sharpen it. at no point am i saying that i imagine it performs anywhere near the same as the ATS-34 buck. just the blade upgrade on that knife costs 6x the price of the kerambit.

if only a single person reading this thread says to themselves 'hey, an $8 chinese knife can have superior fit and finish to a $100 american mass produced knife, then perhaps i should be expecting more the next time i fork over $100' then ive made my point.

cheers,
-gabriel
Click to expand...

I think it would be a great test if the knives are sharpened identically. I don't get excited about out of the box sharpness.

A question I would ask is, "Would you rather have the maker spend the money for nice fit and finish or better steel, heat treatment, etc.?" For my knives I want both and get it. However some will supply that degree of functionality longer than others all things being equal.
 
DGG said:
If both sharpened knives knock off 50 cuts then call it a draw and really be happy with your knife.
Click to expand...

Mild steel is far above that, let alone even low graded hardened steel.

DGG said:
If both are sharpened the same way, course/fine whatever and the user is testing them with about equal pressure why isn't that a fair test of cutting ability?
Click to expand...

It is a prefectly fine comparison and I don't think anyone would be surprised if the higher priced knife significantly outperformed the $8 one, though it would not be near its price ratio.

Blackhearted said:
then perhaps some of these companies should make their prices more competitive.
Click to expand...

Check out the Byrd line from Spyderco.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Mild steel is far above that, let alone even low graded hardened steel.



It is a prefectly fine comparison and I don't think anyone would be surprised if the higher priced knife significantly outperformed the $8 one, though it would not be near its price ratio.



Check out the Byrd line from Spyderco.

-Cliff
Click to expand...

Why not try it, you might surprise us all and really feel good about the less expensive knife and really lousy about the expensive one.

I have seen friends knives that I doubt would make 10 cuts on that stringy yellow polyester rope.

Where do you post all your testing info Cliff?
 
Blackhearted said:
mlovett - those are some gorgeous knives... and ive always been a fan of loveless designs as well.
although i didnt see as much of them as i would have liked - im on dialup (at least for another week) and some of your images are gigantic. any chance you could email me a price list? i didnt see anything posted.

cheers,
-gabriel
Click to expand...

you still use dialup because you could not find a knockoff cable modem to work with your stolen cable?
 
DGG said:
Why not try it, you might surprise us all and really feel good about the less expensive knife and really lousy about the expensive one.

I have seen friends knives that I doubt would make 10 cuts on that stringy yellow polyester rope.

Where do you post all your testing info Cliff?
Click to expand...

id much rather heat treat it first, so were comparing apples to apples :)
however, i absolutely suck at clinical type testing - i dont have the patience, attention span or consistency for it. nor would i test it right. ill know if the edge suits me if it can hold up for a week in my pocket doing the day to day things i expect from my more expensive knives without requiring resharpening.
if the blade heat treat goes well ill send cliff one of these with a properly heat treated blade and let him test it to death, if hes interested. hes already tested many knives with the same series of tests/techniques, so results from him would be far more conclusive... especially since im not willing to sacrifice one of my more expensive folders to the types of testing he does :)

a properly sharpened knife will cut through polyester rope no problem. i could put an edge on a tin can lid that would slice through that stuff. where you run into edge durability problems is repeatedly cutting things like cardboard. perhaps ill humor you and do the test: a certain amount of controlled slices through stacks of cardboard, and then polyester rope with a pre-heat treated kerambit, post heat treated one, and the buck bos SBT. ill throw in an M16 for comparison. the only problem i foresee is that each blade has differing edge angles - the M16 is chisel ground, the SBT still has a stropped factory bevel on it, and the kerambits will be sharpened pretty evilly at acute angles.
still, ill put up a proper review with photos and compare fit and finish as well as performance to some popular more expensive production knives.

cheers,
-gabriel
 
knivesnsuch said:
you still use dialup because you could not find a knockoff cable modem to work with your stolen cable?
Click to expand...

wtf prompted this? just goes to show there are always closeminded people around here ready to troll someone for expressing their opinions.
 
Blackhearted said:
if only a single person reading this thread says to themselves 'hey, an $8 chinese knife can have superior fit and finish to a $100 american mass produced knife, then perhaps i should be expecting more the next time i fork over $100' then ive made my point.
Click to expand...
Well.... I imagine most everyone here realizes that much of the pricing of production knives we see isn't based on the manufacturer's cost, or even utility of the piece. Often the price increment you pay to get something better is way out of proportion with actual improvement in performance, durability, fit, finish, etc.

Paying an inflated price for something may irritate me a little, but something that's a cheap POS just totally p---es me off. So I won't even consider something like this MTech ... and since I can easily afford better, why should I? Maybe you're right and there may be some surprising values out there I'm missing out on, but I just don't have the time, interest or patience to track them down.
 
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