i went and did a very bad thing...

[DGG]

id much rather heat treat it first, so were comparing apples to apples

a properly sharpened knife will cut through polyester rope no problem. i could put an edge on a tin can lid that would slice through that stuff. where you run into edge durability problems is repeatedly cutting things like cardboard. perhaps ill humor you and do the test: a certain amount of controlled slices through stacks of cardboard, and then polyester rope with a pre-heat treated kerambit, post heat treated one, and the buck bos SBT. ill throw in an M16 for comparison. the only problem i foresee is that each blade has differing edge angles - the M16 is chisel ground, the SBT still has a stropped factory bevel on it, and the kerambits will be sharpened pretty evilly at acute angles.
still, ill put up a proper review with photos and compare fit and finish as well as performance to some popular more expensive production knives.

cheers,
-gabriel

If you try this little test don't treat the knives any differently than they came from the manufacturer.

What is being tested is the out of the box inexpensive manufactured knife to the higher priced knife. The theory is that the less expensive knife that only cuts half as good as the better knife that cost 10 times as much is a better deal based on cost-to-usefulness. This is how I read your comments.

Grinds, etc. should be the same (no hollow vrs convex) as should the sharpening angles and types before the test (ie don't compare a serrated blade to a plain one). Sharpen at normal angles, not razor edge chisel grinds at 5 degrees. That would be cheating.

I thought the cheap nasty polyester rope at 1/2" would be a good test because you can get it at most dollar stores and I personally find it a PITA to cut that snarly stuff even with well sharpened blades. I would rather use my hatchet on a stump than one of my knives to cut it. Manilla rope is a breeze compared to this stuff.


Give us you opinion of cutting feel/stress/strain after a certain number of cuts, say 25-50-75, whatever. Toss your tin can lid in there too, I'm curious, never tried to cut with a tin can lid before, heh heh!

 

[Blackhearted]

What is being tested is the out of the box inexpensive manufactured knife to the higher priced knife. The theory is that the less expensive knife that only cuts half as good as the better knife that cost 10 times as much is a better deal based on cost-to-usefulness. This is how I read your comments.

Grinds, etc. should be the same (no hollow vrs convex) as should the sharpening angles and types before the test (ie don't compare a serrated blade to a plain one). Sharpen at normal angles, not razor edge chisel grinds at 5 degrees. That would be cheating.

ive bought >$100 knives that came dullish out of the box - not even scrape shaving sharp. ive also purchased cheaper knives that came razor sharp. 'out of the box' sharpness means little to me since it almost always varies. knives are meant to be resharpened, so its no biggie for me to put an edge on it.

as for edge angle - often out of the box edge angles are far too obtuse for my needs. a 35 degree bevel on a pocket knife is pretty useless to me. so nearly everything that arrives gets reground to a useful angle.

What is being tested is the out of the box inexpensive manufactured knife to the higher priced knife. The theory is that the less expensive knife that only cuts half as good as the better knife that cost 10 times as much is a better deal based on cost-to-usefulness. This is how I read your comments.

not really. we all know that from a pure price/performance standpoint cheap chinese knockoffs win, hands down. for the price of one spyderco you can buy two dozen spyderco knockoffs, and chances are good that combined theyll last longer and be able to do significantly more than the single spyderco. in the same way, an ordinary cheap kitchen knife has a higher pure price/performance ratio than even a Busse. but noone really wants to carry either of these cheap alternatives with them into the bush or even into the office.

however, thats not the point of this thread. its all about the fit and finish being better on an $8 chinese knife than on a $100 buck, $60 CRKT, the list goes on. thats what upsets me, and why i posted this thread. i think that given what the chinese can accomplish on an $8 knife we should expect more on a much higher priced mainstream knife.

people keep saying that of course they can cram more value into a cheap chinese knockoff because they pay for no R&D, pay less wages, have no quality control, yadda yadda yadda. yes, i know. but for gods sake, wherre do you draw the line? apparently im the only person who thinks its rediclous that the F&F is better on an $8 chinese POS than on a $100 buck SBT...

 

[Cliff Stamp]

[rope cutting]

Why not try it ...

I have cut a fair amount of rope, including with some cheap knives, it is what the above comments were based upon.

I have seen friends knives that I doubt would make 10 cuts on that stringy yellow polyester rope.

The edge angle and finish likely need to be adjusted. The edge is probably way too obtuse and thick and over polished.

Where do you post all your testing info Cliff?

Website linked in the profile has about half of it, the other half is in notebooks that I will eventually transcribe and put on the web.

The theory is that the less expensive knife that only cuts half as good as the better knife that cost 10 times as much is a better deal based on cost-to-usefulness.

You can easily find cheap knives which win this comparison to extreme levels, the NIB cutting ability of a Mora 2000 will be hugely ahead of most stock knives costing many times more.

While I think NIB comparisons are informative, I don't think a review of the knife would be complete just leaving the knife with the stock edge. Sharpening and edge adjustments are very valuable information to some.

Sharpen at normal angles, not razor edge chisel grinds at 5 degrees. That would be cheating.

No it would just be optomizing the knife for the task. Most knives intended to cut well have really low edge angles, ~10 degrees is where most puukko's fall, and where makers like Goddard for example will set edges.

Some go further, it depends on what you want the knife to be able to do, once you eliminate cutting metal, beating the edge through hard targets, and side torques you can drop it down to pretty much nothing.

Most fully convex edges like on Opinels are really acute, less than 10 degrees per side is common.

[1/2" poly]

I would rather use my hatchet on a stump than one of my knives to cut it.

This isn't surprising given your comments concerning relief grinds and edge angles :

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=362211

Few blades NIB come with edges optomized to do well on thick ropes.

-Cliff

 

[Boink]

The rationale for supporting MTech is similar to obtaining black market movies and software.

 

[nelsonmc]

The rationale for supporting MTech is similar to obtaining black market movies and software.

Better get rid of my Bittorent then.. Heh

 

[Eric_425]

however, thats not the point of this thread. its all about the fit and finish being better on an $8 chinese knife than on a $100 buck, $60 CRKT, the list goes on. thats what upsets me, and why i posted this thread. i think that given what the chinese can accomplish on an $8 knife we should expect more on a much higher priced mainstream knife.

people keep saying that of course they can cram more value into a cheap chinese knockoff because they pay for no R&D, pay less wages, have no quality control, yadda yadda yadda. yes, i know. but for gods sake, wherre do you draw the line? apparently im the only person who thinks its rediclous that the F&F is better on an $8 chinese POS than on a $100 buck SBT...

No, you're not. We just don't want to get flamed. However, I'll stick out my neck for you. When a thing is exalted to the point that it appears flawless and any criticism is quickly shouted down, or when a thing is beaten to the point that it appears almost no redeeming merit can be brought to mind, you know it's reputation must be exaggerated. Nothing falls that far on either side of the scale. There are many reasons forums carry a bias.

The most obvious you can see, when a manufacturer has their own forum, and occasionally partake in posting in it, people in that forum are going to feel a friendship between them and the owner of that brand. And naturally, they want to stick up for them and their product. Go to any of manufacturers forums, particularly the ones in which the owners regularly participate, and try to find one thread where a current flaw is acknowledged as a flaw. We all know that nothing is perfect, and anything suggesting that is hype. But, if the people who are inevitably going to roast me can post a link, I'll gladly eat my words.

Many people have purchased these forum-favorite knives, and like yourself, been mildly disappointed when they actually hold one in hand, as essentially no knife can live up to a near-perfect reputation. Like yourself, if they've tentatively questioned on the forum, they will be consoled that small defects are unavoidable. They've gotten themselves to accept it. Now, they do not want to hear otherwise. Ever had a friend with a cheating girlfriend, but has devoutly convinced himself of her loyalty? If he even detects a hint that you believe otherwise....

A lot of parrots don't even currently own both the knives, but just don't want to hear anything that goes against forum consensus, a consensus built by the 2 issues above, something they've been repeating for a long time. This is why you're getting such a backlash. It's why 1st hand experience is so valuable.

Bladeforums is pretty unique though. Some of it is just because of the sheer numbers of members here. If you stick to one subforum mostly, you may not even meet the others. If an outsider plays around with a favorite, and doesn't like it, he might avoid the shoutdown he'd receive if he'd posted in outside of the forums where the "XXXX" brand fanatics mostly stay. He may find others with the same experience with the knives. Also, it has members like Cliff Stamp, who do testing and reports back data as solid numbers. In the interest of objectively comparing knives, this is infinitely more useful than a meandering story along the lines of " I sharpened it and cut some rope, which the knife easily split with a single slice. It felt good in the hand, stayed sharp, and the grip was comfortable...." Where far too variables still exist to evaluate the knife. Like geometry and roughness of the sharpening job, or type of rope, method of cutting, and a hundred other things. There aren't a lot of places you'd learn of a frost mora or SAK outdoing a favorite brand on anything, much less why.

 

[Cougar Allen]

Moteng sucks!!!!!

I've been informed Moteng does not import that brand.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The most obvious you can see, when a manufacturer has their own forum, and occasionally partake in posting in it, people in that forum are going to feel a friendship between them and the owner of that brand. And naturally, they want to stick up for them and their product. Go to any of manufacturers forums, particularly the ones in which the owners regularly participate, and try to find one thread where a current flaw is acknowledged as a flaw. We all know that nothing is perfect, and anything suggesting that is hype. But, if the people who are inevitably going to roast me can post a link, I'll gladly eat my words.

It isn't hard to fine threads on the Spyderco, HI and Swamp Rat and Busse forums where people discuss the drawbacks of the knives. There is a fairly solid community of people on those forums so a lot of the threads get sidetracked with personal issues and in jokes, especially on the Busse forum, but you can openly talk about the knives without it being 100% glowing praise and not be attacked for it.

-Cliff

 

[Rocinante]

Blackhearted is correct.....you are very 80s.

It's a new world out there.

Sweat shops?

Check around.....there are more in your so-called democratic countries.

 

[jefff]

Hehe .. I told ya they were gonna hang ya ..


You have done a great job of standing your ground though.. IMO..
fawk em if they don;t like it .. some people act like it is they're design they are ripping off..
I personally don't really give a sh*t who stole what design from who .. It is not my problem..
If I can save and get a good product and as long as I am not buying it out of someones trunk next to wally world and I know it is not stolen... It is fair game!
"Leave the bickering of design up to the maker and manufactures and lawyer's"
If it is for sale in our markets then I am sure it is not a illegal thing..

I say if your happy with it and it works good or even fair.. You got a hell of a deal on it..

~Jeff

 

[LongDistance]

ah, i see.
so how is buying a knife made in taiwan, mexico, etc any different?
why dont i hear people bashing CRKT, KA-BAR, Benchmade, SOG, Gerber, Buck, etc for utilizing sweatshop workers in taiwan, for example? or am i mistaken, and taiwan is such a bastion of workers rights, freedoms and benefits compared to china?

I have been to Taiwan before, so yes, the average Taiwanese "sweat shop worker" is alot better off than his Chinese counterpart. Taiwan is a democractic country where her citizens can vote for their leaders, have freedom of speech, media, and assembly. So yes, Taiwan is a better democratic than China. Plus, the average Taiwanese is very pro America, Taiwanese department stores actually have "4th of July sales" and Taiwanese citizens take pride if they own a product this made in the USA. Now it would be nice for America to support Taiwan's independance... but that is off topic.

 

[Rat Finkenstein]

- - - - - - - - - - -

 

[mschwoeb]

If it is for sale in our markets then I am sure it is not a illegal thing..
~Jeff

Just keep thinking that. :thumbdn:

 

[drano]

since im a poor college student, buying mtechs and kershaws are the only way to curb my addiction.

as a person who owns a few mtechs, I can tell you that some of the knives turn out really well, but some do not. the factories just have pretty high tolerences.

if there are any of you who know about electric guitars, mtechs' are just like mexican fenders. some times you get lucky.

but i still keep buying them cuz most of the time i can do some minor adjustments like grind in the liner lock to a proper fit.
it's still worth it even if i do get the occasional lock that was ground too short or get one with a crappy detent.

 

[wolfmann601]

If buying Mtech makes you happy and you honestly believe you own a knife of good enough quality to use it safely for a while then enjoy!!!

I personally would never own a counterfeited knife that the original maker or designer was not compensated for, and my personal taste for knives demands that the knife be made of 100% quality components.

That eliminates Mtech. I will only carry a knife I know will last at least a year of hard use and not be bothered or concerned with possible failure (like a blade snapping in half) Yeah, I know that all knives may/can/might fail but the ones I buy I believe have far better reviews based on use. I have yet to see or hear of an Mtech being carried and used hard for any period of time and still be in my opinion of "great" shape. It isn't all about the price of the knife, it's all about the ability of the knife to safely withstand hard use. I just cannot trust this knife to perform in time of need.

***My personal opinion only...........

 

[jefff]

If it is for sale in our markets then I am sure it is not a illegal thing..
~Jeff




Just keep thinking that.

Until they are shut down for importing illegal products then they are perfectly legal to own and buy.. Like I said before .. it is not problem who's design they ripped off.. It wasn't mine.. That's a crappy attitude to have but it is the way the world goes around these days... If I had a buddy that was in this market and got one of his designs copied and exploited or even in a close resemblance of one of his designs.. Yeah I would be like man that's BS.. but would I buy one.. Heck yeah .. Would it really hurt his sales if he had a product that was far superior? not likely.. Quality always comes first when it is important.. Would I take this knife to a fight or put my life on it.. Hell no... but I would buy it and enjoy using it for other things..

I see your point.. and that is just what it is, "Your point of view".. not mine.. I don't see a need for bashing someone for buying something that is for sale in a legit legal manor.. This is not a union lol some of these kinds of outburst seem like something you would hear if they were taking your benefits from your job and you were on a picket line..

~Jeff

 

[infamous]

Without participating in all the politics, in reference of Blackhearted's findings on the M-Tech Karambit, it has infact recieved surprisingly good reviews on several other sites, and some have stated that it is one of the better "cheapies" out there.

No matter whether you agree on whether it is right or wrong to manufacture these products, there will always be a market for them, and there will always be third-world countries manufacturing them. So in my opinion if you don't agree with them, do not purchase and therefore support them, and if you do, enjoy your inexspensive toys.

 

[LaBella]

I've been informed Moteng does not import that brand.

a little birdie told me they made them?

 

[dialex]

Is that a copy of another knife?

IIRC it's a Liong Mah design and I think (not sure, can be wrong) it was produced by Mike Turber's Wowinc a couple years ago.

 

[dialex]

when it comes to exploiting a nation's people, i dont make a distinction based on the type of government. exploiting a poor nation to manufacture your product cheaply is the same to me no matter how the country is run. weve been exploting mexicans, taiwanese, and the chinese for decades now to manufacture everything from cars to knives.

I'm sorry I don't understand. How do you exploit a poor nation when you manufacture items there? Yes, the workhand is cheaper, but those people are paid. According to the the local wages (which are are low), but they'd be the same way with or without foreign orders (from America or wherever). I dare to say that some of the people out there have a better life due to those foreign orders.
BTW, I'm not trying to defend the now infamous capitalist system or whatever, I'm an average citizen in one of those third world countries and I know what I'm talking about.