i went and did a very bad thing...

Chuck Bybee said:
Please clarify what you mean.
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don't you think $400 for a knife is alot? cough ... (price gouging)
a $400 knife better be able to bring down a deer at 300 yds because I got 4 milsurps that can do it for less money total!
 
harpers ferry said:
don't you think $400 for a knife is alot?
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Consider a skilled tradesman usually gets ~$20 an hour, if the guys takes 2-3 days to make your knife that explains the price right there.

-Cliff
 
harpers ferry said:
don't you think $400 for a knife is alot? cough ... (price gouging)
a $400 knife better be able to bring down a deer at 300 yds because I got 4 milsurps that can do it for less money total!
Click to expand...
I've watched a knifemaker spend more than 40 hours developing the pattern in one billet of damascus steel. 40 hours before he had anything resembling a knife! The knife took at least another 20 hours to finish. The handle was $200 walrus tusk. The finished knife sold for $1,200. Was this price gouging?

The minimum shop time rate I think knifemakers should charge is $50 per hour. This is a very low rate. My rate as an electrician was higher 25 years ago. If you multiply the hours x rate (60 hrs x $50) the total is $3,000. But the knifemaker did not charge this much for the knife. Why? He felt he needed to learn more and pay more dues before his knives would reflect the prices he should be charging. Again I ask the question, was this price gouging?

You may question the $50 per hour shop rate. I wrote earlier it should be higher. The purpose of the shop rate is to pay for:
  • consumables, (belts, propane, electricity, drill bits, etc)
  • standard materials
  • wear on existing equipment
  • new equipment
  • training
  • insurance
  • salary

Again I ask the question, was this price gouging?

I think we as collectors get an incredible value for our money. If you disagree, keep buying military surplus knives. You will be happier.
 
It's a bit silly to quote American steel prices when talking about a knife made in Asia.

Do we think that China buys steel from America, then ships it to factories in China to be turned into knives?

:D
 
It is also silly to think that a blade marked as "440" on a Chinese made knife really is one of the 440 series of steels. :rolleyes:
 
man.. this is unbelievable.
i merely posted because i got a good little deal for $8 and figured some other people might be interested in getting one of these so cheap.

i have used it, and its not made of garbage steel. i dont do clinical tests like cliff, but based on my sharpening of it and nearly a week's use, i find it in line with AUS-6 in terms of the way it sharpens, durability, burrs/deburrs, is affected by corrosion and holds an edge. it actually outperforms my AUS-4 CRKTs in terms of sharpenability and edge holding.
i was able to put a hair-popping edge on it, which is more than i can say for many CRKT AUS-4 blades. once you work on the CRKT AUS-4 chisel ground edges for long they start to roll over to the unsharpened side no matter how gently you apply the knife to the stone. it requires beveling the unsharpened edge ever so slightly to fix.
anyways, i was able to sharpen it scary sharp with just an extra course, then medium stone. 10-12 degrees on both sides, then stropped for a few minutes. its held that edge for days now, even though ive been using it for a lot of things from opening hard bubble wrap to cutting cardboard (recycling day yesterday). its not hair-popping sharp anymore but it still shaves easily.

honestly, if you people are getting so riled up and thinking that this $8 chinese knife is such a huge threat to american made knives, good. perhaps that will make you expect more in terms of fit and finish and value the next time you fork over $50-100 for a production knife from an american company and take something home with stamped liners and molded scales that were probably never even touched by human hands. i certainly will. its not going to make me switch to buying chinese cheapies, but its certainly going to make me reexamine every production knife i spend money on from now on and expect more in terms of F&F/value for my hard earned money.
ive spent an obscene amount of money on knives in the past years, and i have a right to be upset when i see some things - however small - in an $8 cheapie that i dont see on a lot of the knives i spent 10-20 times as much money on.

now please - dont get your panties in a bunch over this. if your ethics prevent you from purchasing a chinese cheapie that may or may not have stolen a design from an asian knife designer, dont buy it. but then please apply this ideal across the board and do not buy any of the plethora of partial and full knockoffs from many reputable manufacturers.
otherwise i stand behind what i said in my original post - this thing is a great value for the money.

cheers,
-gabriel
 
I can shoot a deer or bear or rhino with a $49 ( yes I have the gun and the receipt to prove it) rifle and gut it with a $1 kitchen knife. How much will the extra $350 for the sebbie help me, praytell?
 
There is nothing inherently wrong with cheap knives. The point is you get more for your money when you buy from honest people. Even if you only have $8 to spend you can afford an Opinel or a puukko or an Old Hickory, and there are even knives made in China that are not stolen designs, and guess what -- the companies that don't cheat other knife makers don't cheat their customers either.
 
who is more honest? The guy who charges $8 or the guy who charges $200+. The OP makes a very valid point.Who is ripping off whom?
 
Cougar Allen said:
There is nothing inherently wrong with cheap knives. The point is you get more for your money when you buy from honest people. Even if you only have $8 to spend you can afford an Opinel or a puukko or an Old Hickory, and there are even knives made in China that are not stolen designs, and guess what -- the companies that don't cheat other knife makers don't cheat their customers either.
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these arent even remotely the same type of knife. old hickory are fixed blade kitchen knives - dont get me wrong i love them, but were comparing apples to oranges here.
as for opinels and pukkos, theyve never really appealed to me not for performance reasons but just because i dont like the 'style'. i dont dispute their performance but their looks just dont appeal to me. same way some people collect only bowies, while others collect primarily bayonets.

im not saying 'this is the best deal going for $8 right now'. just that i was pleasantly suprised when it came in the mail that it wasnt the POS i expected. the way i have it now - with the g10 scales radiused and a wicked edge on it, if you were to polish off the mtech lettering and put it alongside common $50-100 offerings it would not stand out as a cheap knife unless the person knew beforehand that it was an $8 mtech. then their preconceptions/biases would come into play and they would immediately start attacking it. those preconceptions can be so strong that honestly if half the people in this thread bought one right now and 'reviewed' it i wouldnt put much faith in their reviews because their hatred of this company/knife/genre is so strong that it would heavily bias anything they concluded - whether consciously or subconsciously.

boy am i ever glad the reputation system is done with. although this thread was just intentioned as 'hey look what i got for $8, its not so bad' - i can see already that i would be far in the red right now based on some peoples reactions. reactions like this really make me not want to post anything in this forum - or at least not post anything that might stray from the usual 'wow sebenzas are so awesome' type threads. and its far from just me - i see people post simple innocent opinions and right away people jump down their throats. like someone will post a 'why does a _______ (insert cult knife maker name here) cost so much?'. it could be an honest question from someone who is used to buying knives for $29.99 at walmart and would like to know what distinguishes some of the more expensive knife brands. but right away cultists of said knife brand will start flaming the **** out of the poor bugger annd leap to the defence of their exalted brand over the perceived insult. when the rep system was active the red chiclets would also start flowing in. ive seen some people go into the red over what i thought were simple honest questions, or harmless opinions.
suffice to say i deeply regret posting this thread. from now on i will try my best to keep to 'safe' conformist topics.

cheers,
-gabriel
 
I for one am very glad that you had the courage to post, and the bravery to continue responding intelligently, even to obvious flames.

I hope that you won't let the bastards steal your fire....

-merlin
 
You hang in there Blackhearted. I for one got so intrigued by all this that I went out and got one myself yesterday off e-bay and I'm sure I'll enjoy all 8 bucks worth....!
 
The quality American-made folding knife is going the way of the quality American-made double-barrel shotgun.

Same process, same reasons.......knives just cost less, that's all.
 
Ok keep it quiet but my sources inform me that all proceeds from the sale of these knives will be used to fund a democratic neo-con and God fearing revolution. :eek:

Now do your democratic duty and get one bought :D


Olie North has two already :rolleyes:
 
Let me explain one thing.

Originally in Soviet Union economy was build based on a concept of surrended by enemy camp - mean everithing must be produced inside. I remember example from school - Russians manage to make rubber out of potatoes, because natural gum was only abroad. Russian plant cotton in middle Asia to have their own cotton. Russian start making good watches, not much worse then Swiss - because Red Army officers need it - etc. Keep in mind that China economy was initially build by Russians in 1950-60 (it was in middleages before 1940) and was copy of same communist surrended camp.

If you do not need to buy something from outside - because everithing is made inside, you can now put any exchange rate. Stalin at some point sad that it will be enough for 1 dollar to be 0.3 rouble. Really, who cares? Soviet Union do not need them anyway, let American products be cheaper.

But you may do it differently. Let say real rate is 1 to 1, you make exchange rate 1 to 10 (communist economy - rate will be one which you set no currency market) - it does not damage you because you do not need anything from US anyway, but US will rush to buy you staff just because it is 10 times cheaper! You get for you producs ten times less then US manufacturer but you do not really care about it - you dont need to buy anything from US! However you will have a lot of orders from greedy americans and expand you production. That dollars you gain, even it will be less then you suppose to get, you may still pay to buy Russian MIGs and SUs, Sunburn missales ("battle group killers", check google - really cool staff) - all this sophisticated modern weapons etc.

Products are same quality as US made (now) or will be this way soon, in time any manufacturer will have enough skill to provide high quality, workers are fairly paid in yuans and they able to buy almost similar goods in similar amounts as american (but made inside). I am thinking that soon R&D will be also in China and as good as here. Chinese people smart, wise, hardworking, educated, they learn fast - I really like them!

I think Chinese goods are really good and they cheap! Do you see any reason why not to buy it?...

Personaly, I see, but I will not pressure anybody to buy something with label "American made" - it is several times more expensive. However, I dicide for myself to better pay this difference (if it is not huge). Unfortunately, more and more times you don't have any choise.

I remember reading about interesting economy parameter - BigMac price. Usially BigMacs are made inside from domestic products, by comparising price betwin same BigMac here and there you may easy see how real exchange rate should looks. Just wondering what price for BigMac in China?

Thanks, Vassili.
 
One thing about chinese knives quality. While many people complain about it, certainly with some reasons there's no law that chinese goods are and will be forever junk.
I read an article some time ago about euro paring knives maker complaining about some euro cutlery companies being bought by chinese. They complained a lot about chinese maker stealing designs and processes, but what they said was that those copies where more and often as well manufactured if not better, with a really lower price.
Fact is a large part of a knife price comes from workers' salaries. In china, as many other developping countries, workers are paid a lot less then most western workers. Aside from that people who have already purchased a valiant golok or himalayan imports khukri know that those countries are perfectly able to produce excellent craftsmen, so there's no reasons locals would not be able to produce average to good production knife workers.
I'm not advocating chinese production but fact is chinese are not idiots: soon or late you'll see quality chinese knives as good as most western ones, and they'll be cheaper.
 
Ravaillac said:
Fact is a large part of a knife price comes from workers' salaries. In china, as many other developping countries, workers are paid a lot less then most western workers.
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That, and workers often work in conditions that would be considered unsafe in Western countries. Also in many cases, pollution controls are only turned on when factories are inspected because they slow down production and increase costs.

As a result, some parts of China have air quality that makes LA look like heaven and the water makes a toilet in a crack house look downright clean.
 
Mods, isn't it time this thread was moved to W&C, so we can reply in an appropriate manner?
 
jefff said:
lol ok well I am not here trying to change anyones mind or force my opinion on to you .. and <<<I AM NOT SAYING WHAT WAS DONE IS OK>>> if it was in fact a theft of some makers design.. but until it is not for sale to the general public it is perfectly legal to purchase..

~Jeff
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Actually Jeff it is NOT "perfectly legal to purchase" as it is (my opinion) a product derived through and by the theft of intellectual property rights and the theft of a person's work product. In this case, the designer had agreed to provide the design for compensation and did so. Then said design was stolen and used to produce the exact knife as designed with zero compensation. If the designer had unlimited funds to confront this, the outcome would be that it is not "perfectly legal" to purchase this knife. (Again, my opinion)

But I am beating said dead horse. You are unchanged in your assertion that as long as you are not the victim, as long as you have no personal connection to the person aggrieved by the theft of his property, and as long as it is available for sale, it's "OK" to buy it.

I on the other hand believe that one's personal integrity should always guide one away from allowing the perpetrator to profit. I also want to believe my views represent the majority who participate on knife related forums.......
 
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