I'm not responsible if something goes wrong ... insurance, pay pal...

Esav Benyamin said:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1177581-Consolidated-Sticky-List

Registered Insured Mail

Please read the stickies at the head of the FEEDBACK forum. So many questions over the years are answered there. This one in particular gives you a secure option for mailing.
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Excellent!!! Thank you.

I have shipped so many boxes overseas, mostly to Australia, and the USPS always told me directly to my face that there was no way of insuring it once it leaves the US. This is great knowledge to have and next time im at the post office i will indeed ask about it and make sure the receiving country also has this in place.
 
worldwood said:
I have shipped so many boxes overseas, mostly to Australia, and the USPS always told me directly to my face that there was no way of insuring it once it leaves the US. This is great knowledge to have and next time im at the post office i will indeed ask about it and make sure the receiving country also has this in place.
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We ship to Australia frequently from work and use FedEx only.

Here's the blurb from eBay:
If your item is located in the US and you're shipping to an eligible country, you may be able to use our Global Shipping Program. With the Global Shipping Program, you ship the item to a US shipping center, and international shipping experts manage the international shipping and customs process for you.
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I'm almost certain that Australia is an "eligible country."
 
Stereo Joe
Well, this thread is encouraging and makes me feel a little annoyed at myself for going along with a practice that didn't sit well with me. I just changed the shipping conditions in my current for sale thread to exclude the Paypal gift option and to clarify that shipping is fully insured only.
[/QUOTE]

:thumbup:
 
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Bob W said:
We ship to Australia frequently from work and use FedEx only.

Here's the blurb from eBay:

I'm almost certain that Australia is an "eligible country."
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Thank you. I will indeed look into that. I have looked into Fedex options before but the price was nearly 4 times the amount of USPS for a small box when shipped internationally. But for peace of mind, and since the shipping costs would be the buyers responsibility it may be a better way to go.

I did just read this about the USPS though

"The maximum indemnity limit is $47.93, regardless of the value declaration on the package. This means that if you send a $200 watch to Australia via Registered Mail and it disappears, you will only receive $47.93 maximum reimbursement"

So i will be doing a lot more research into this matter.
 
I have bought quite a few knives from custom makers via BF. I do think the situation is a little different when shipping overseas; there are simply more areas where something could conceivably go wrong. As a few have said above, if a seller is worried that they're going to be left high and dry then they're less likely to be willing to ship internationally. Personally - and I do have to emphasize that I can only speak for myself - I am of the belief that if the seller took all reasonable steps to get the knife to me and acted in good faith, then I will act in good faith when it comes to payment. I also generally make sure the seller has that in writing from me for their own reassurance (it helps cut through the awkwardness :) ).

Some specifics about my position:

I won't pay for something with Paypal Gift. Apart from not being as protected as the goods option, it's dishonest and I think a little unprofessional. I would like to think that I'm honest and ever so slightly more professional than that :)

Customs stuff:
As a person importing a knife it is up to me to know what Aussie legislation is; if Customs seize something because I buggered up or got lazy then that's on me. Different story if it was incorrectly described by the maker - BUT that has never happened and I'd consider that chance to be pretty remote. Any seller I do business with would tell you I ask questions to make sure I know what I'm buying; that's because I have done my research about what is legal. I'll never ask anyone to send something that I shouldn't import because again, that's dishonest and unprofessional. I have been known to ask makers to do things like round off swedges to make sure they can't be mistaken for a dagger-like second edge.

Postal misfortune:
Packages to Oz can take a while. They say ten days but it can on occasion be more than that. There are a lot of reasons they can be delayed. It's no biggie. Stuff happens. The one time a package didn't make it was because of a simple typo on the address and after a couple months the seller got it back. He clarified the address and re-sent - no problem. It's in my best interests to make sure the seller is happy too. Stuff happens and sometimes it's nobody's fault. If a knife wasn't properly packaged, well that'd be a different story.

The solution in so many of these cases is proper communication. Make sure the knife is properly packaged. Double-check the address. Buyer - make sure it's Customs compliant. Above all, be reasonable. Act like we're all on the same side and everything goes a lot smoother :)

It can be easy to lose sight of the good side of things, so a bit of context: to date I have bought at least 26 knives in at least 13 individual transactions from makers on this site. All were paid with Paypal goods. Not one was seized by customs, lost or suffered significant damage in transit. I would deal with every one of those makers again and I'd like to think they'd be happy to deal with me. All on the same side.
 
When you pay with PayPal goods, you are in effect getting insurance. PayPal will side with the buyer 99% of the time. If you pay with the gift option and get taken by a dishonest seller you have no recourse and no one to blame but yourself.
 
Reading this was one of the biggest wastes of time in my life! Simple. If you don't like whats for sale or the terms don't buy it!!
 
Striderco said:
Reading this was one of the biggest wastes of time in my life! Simple. If you don't like whats for sale or the terms don't buy it!!
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When doing business through eBay or PayPal, the policy for un-delivered/lost/damaged items is set by eBay and PayPal, not the individual seller.

Bladeforums has a similar tradition as well, courtesy of our esteemed moderator Esav Benjamin (the bold is mine)

We have a tradition here that no deal is final until both parties are satisfied. Not everyone understands or subscribes to it, but everyone understands a contract.

If you send someone money for a purchase or you send them goods as a trade, they owe you the goods you agreed to in return. Period.

This has nothing to do with insurance, delivery confirmation, or signature required -- those are just postal services to reassure the sender that his interests will be protected.

Whether or not he chooses to use them, he still owes you the goods you paid or traded for. If he doesn't get his half of the deal to you, he owes you a full refund.

It doesn't matter if the goods were lost in transit, stolen from your doorstep, or fell out of a poorly packed container. Until you get yours, he owes you. Even if the loss is not his fault.

That's why he owes it to himself to buy insurance, delivery confirmation, and signature required. Considering the high dollar value of many Busse transactions, Express Mail or Registered Mail would be an even better idea. But that's not the buyer's decision to make, since secure delivery is the seller's responsibility in every case.
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Great minds think alike! Like Striderco, I came up with the same solution for most of the problems mentioned in this thread - it is 100% effective.

Drum roll please . . .

If you do not like the terms a seller sets forth in his listing, look elsewhere.

It really is that easy. There are no guns to our heads people. Our families are not being held hostage only to be freed if we purchase that newly listed Benchmade or Spyderco. The Exchange here is awesome as is because the rules cover the fundamentals and allow the community to manage itself. No helicopter parenting and no micromanagement. That is how it should be.

The issue of PayPal fees gets brought up constantly. The reality is that buyers pay the fees, either directly or in the form of a higher listed price. Every seller lists a knife with a number in mind as to what they want to get for it after PayPal and shipping. Those costs, just like the overhead for an office, get passed down to the buyer through pricing. For example, a seller wants to get $150 total for his ZT 0301:

Scenario #1: seller lists ZT 0301 for $155 all inclusive

Scenario #2: seller lists ZT 0301 for $150 (friends/family option or buyer covers the fees)

There is no difference in the dollar amounts between these two scenarios for the seller. What matters is that in scenario 2 - we get a choice. The seller is giving us the opportunity to be adults and to decide for ourselves how we wish to pay. How are people complaining about that? Seriously, I though this was America! :p I have enough feedback here that a lot of guys are comfortable sending payment via friends/family. I do not require this of them by any means. I just respect the fact we are all adults here capable of making our own decisions and appreciate the trust they have in me.

The discussion of shipping insurance is even more alarming from the replies I am seeing. I am going to borrow this quote that Kelama posted:

"As with everything that I sell, if your not 100% satisfied with the purchase you may certainly return the item for a complete refund of the purchase price. I, of course, cannot (and will not) be held liable for the knives AFTER they leave my possession, should the cutlery you purchased be damaged in transport and / or after you receive said cutlery, as unfortunate of a situation as that would be, there will be no refunds from me due to this. All the more reason for you to opt for insurance on the cutlery. Let me reiterate, AFTER the cutlery leaves my possession I will not be held responsible / accountable for it."

Please read that carefully. Is there anything unclear about it? Nope. Anything deceptive? Nope. The seller lays it out all out for everyone to see right there.

On the other hand you have folks like egally08. I would prefer not to call anyone out specifically but his reply is really fitting. Members like him are the absolute worst because they will pop into a thread, read the above sale terms, and happily agree to those terms by purchasing an item, of course without the insurance. And 99 times out of 100, nothing comes of it. The package is delivered safely – everyone is happy. But in the rare case when something bad happens and the knife is lost or damaged, they will go ahead and just bend you over with a PayPal claim.

Now that is two-faced. If someone pulls that BS, their feedback should be dinged and they should be raked over the coals in GB&U. There is a lot of talk on these forums about the importance of keeping promises and standing by your word. This line taken from the official rules is paramount - If you have a problem being honest, upfront, and are unable to honor your word then you do not belong here. In this situation I described, the seller follows that to a tee. The buyer . . . not so much.

Interestingly enough, there is no mention in the official rules of insurance being the sole responsibility of either party for buying and selling. And that is the beauty of it, sellers can decide how they want to manage their deals and *gasp* buyers can choose who they do business with :thumbup:
 
Russ Andrews said:
Regardless of any other considerations....It is the buyer's responsibility
to get payment into the hands of the seller.........and the seller's responsibility
to get the sold item into the hands of the buyer.....period.
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I love it when things is clear and simple, makes life much nicer. :)
 
Paypal aside, it is absolutely the law in all fifty states that the seller and buyer can agree that risk of loss passes to the buyer upon delivery to the carrier or at any other point that the parties agree. So if the seller says risk passes on mailing, for example, and you say "I'll take it," you just accepted the seller's terms, including where/when risk of loss passes to you.

Efforts by the seller to impose conditions unilaterally after sale are void.

If the risk of loss is not discussed in the contract of sale and it is agreed that the goods are to be delivered to a particular address, as a matter of law in all fifty states risk of loss passes to the buyer only upon delivery to that address.

Paypal has its own set of rules for sellers as discussed above.
 
Ludwig said:
Great minds think alike! Like Striderco, I came up with the same solution for most of the problems mentioned in this thread - it is 100% effective.

Drum roll please . . .

If you do not like the terms a seller sets forth in his listing, look elsewhere.

It really is that easy. There are no guns to our heads people. Our families are not being held hostage only to be freed if we purchase that newly listed Benchmade or Spyderco. The Exchange here is awesome as is because the rules cover the fundamentals and allow the community to manage itself. No helicopter parenting and no micromanagement. That is how it should be.

The issue of PayPal fees gets brought up constantly. The reality is that buyers pay the fees, either directly or in the form of a higher listed price. Every seller lists a knife with a number in mind as to what they want to get for it after PayPal and shipping. Those costs, just like the overhead for an office, get passed down to the buyer through pricing. For example, a seller wants to get $150 total for his ZT 0301:

Scenario #1: seller lists ZT 0301 for $155 all inclusive

Scenario #2: seller lists ZT 0301 for $150 (friends/family option or buyer covers the fees)

There is no difference in the dollar amounts between these two scenarios for the seller. What matters is that in scenario 2 - we get a choice. The seller is giving us the opportunity to be adults and to decide for ourselves how we wish to pay. How are people complaining about that? Seriously, I though this was America! :p I have enough feedback here that a lot of guys are comfortable sending payment via friends/family. I do not require this of them by any means. I just respect the fact we are all adults here capable of making our own decisions and appreciate the trust they have in me.

The discussion of shipping insurance is even more alarming from the replies I am seeing. I am going to borrow this quote that Kelama posted:

"As with everything that I sell, if your not 100% satisfied with the purchase you may certainly return the item for a complete refund of the purchase price. I, of course, cannot (and will not) be held liable for the knives AFTER they leave my possession, should the cutlery you purchased be damaged in transport and / or after you receive said cutlery, as unfortunate of a situation as that would be, there will be no refunds from me due to this. All the more reason for you to opt for insurance on the cutlery. Let me reiterate, AFTER the cutlery leaves my possession I will not be held responsible / accountable for it."

Please read that carefully. Is there anything unclear about it? Nope. Anything deceptive? Nope. The seller lays it out all out for everyone to see right there.

On the other hand you have folks like egally08. I would prefer not to call anyone out specifically but his reply is really fitting. Members like him are the absolute worst because they will pop into a thread, read the above sale terms, and happily agree to those terms by purchasing an item, of course without the insurance. And 99 times out of 100, nothing comes of it. The package is delivered safely – everyone is happy. But in the rare case when something bad happens and the knife is lost or damaged, they will go ahead and just bend you over with a PayPal claim.

Now that is two-faced. If someone pulls that BS, their feedback should be dinged and they should be raked over the coals in GB&U. There is a lot of talk on these forums about the importance of keeping promises and standing by your word. This line taken from the official rules is paramount - If you have a problem being honest, upfront, and are unable to honor your word then you do not belong here. In this situation I described, the seller follows that to a tee. The buyer . . . not so much.

Interestingly enough, there is no mention in the official rules of insurance being the sole responsibility of either party for buying and selling. And that is the beauty of it, sellers can decide how they want to manage their deals and *gasp* buyers can choose who they do business with :thumbup:
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Two edged sword. You have heard from the mods directly that the rules of the forum state clearly what the roles of the buyers and sellers are. If you don't like those rules, well no one is putting a gun to your head to do business here either. . .

Seems like a few guys here want their cake and eat it too. . . They want to make up their own rules for buying and selling instead of abiding by the forum rules.

Edited to add: by the way, I sell as well as buy here. I understand my role and responsibility as a seller. If know I'm responsible if my buyer doesn't receive the package I send. That's why I send signature confirmation required.
 
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Well said Ludwig and Thomas!!

If you agree to the terms a buyer sets forth you should be honest enough to keep your side of the deal. This entire thread makes me worry that people will agree to the terms and still try and file a claim. Talk about dishonest.

There should be a sticky on the exchange explaining this. The moderators are saying no matter what the sellers terms are they are still accountable after a buyer agrees to the sellers terms, this should be stickied where all sellers can see it. Obviously sellers dont know this and thats why they list their own terms. I for one will be telling people to read this thread so they can cover their own a$$. I guarantee the amount of international sells will decrease FAST if all sellers knew this!! And thats a shame because we have some awesome international members that deserve to be able to order knives like everyone else.

"Any disclaimers to the contrary are false, misleading or just plain dishonest"

There is nothing false, misleading or dishonest when its spelled out in black and white. And once you agree to whats spelled out you should honor your end of the deal.

That would be like buying a car as-is, agreeing to the terms it is as-is, then looking for a refund when it needs a new transmission. Now THAT is dishonest and just plain WRONG.


Ill still be looking into registered insured mail, and Fedex options, and will be calling USPS on Monday to get the exact truth on the subject. Because i have many international friends and would love to keep sending abroad, but not at the risk i lose everything because someone can go through with their end of an agreed upon sale.

Most people are not trying to get over, most people in the knife community are great people and do their best to do the right thing, so its a shame when a simple contract cant be followed. And a sellers terms in a sale is considered a contract once the buyer agrees. Like Thomas said, if this was a legal matter and paypal was not involved there would be no question. And this was the reason i never accepted paypal until recently when i went "orange" I decided paypal was an evil necessity to be a regular seller because most buyers prefer it, but its becoming apparent thats its really not beneficial to sellers, as it wont protect them at all.
 
Quote Originally Posted by Russ Andrews Regardless of any other considerations....It is the buyer's responsibility
to get payment into the hands of the seller.........and the seller's responsibility
to get the sold item into the hands of the buyer.....period.
Click to expand...

RevDevil said:
I love it when things is clear and simple, makes life much nicer. :)
Click to expand...

And it would be clear and simple if the supposed rule were posted in the sticky that states Spark's actual "Rules For The Exchange & Discussion Forums - (All Rules Apply Site-Wide) UPDATED 3/1/14" Which it is not . . . period. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/announcement.php?f=892&a=98
 
worldwood said:
Well said Ludwig and Thomas!!

If you agree to the terms a buyer sets forth you should be honest enough to keep your side of the deal. This entire thread makes me worry that people will agree to the terms and still try and file a claim. Talk about dishonest.

There should be a sticky on the exchange explaining this. The moderators are saying no matter what the sellers terms are they are still accountable after a buyer agrees to the sellers terms, this should be stickied where all sellers can see it. Obviously sellers dont know this and thats why they list their own terms. I for one will be telling people to read this thread so they can cover their own a$$. I guarantee the amount of international sells will decrease FAST if all sellers knew this!! And thats a shame because we have some awesome international members that deserve to be able to order knives like everyone else.

"Any disclaimers to the contrary are false, misleading or just plain dishonest"

There is nothing false, misleading or dishonest when its spelled out in black and white. And once you agree to whats spelled out you should honor your end of the deal.

That would be like buying a car as-is, agreeing to the terms it is as-is, then looking for a refund when it needs a new transmission. Now THAT is dishonest and just plain WRONG.


Ill still be looking into registered insured mail, and Fedex options, and will be calling USPS on Monday to get the exact truth on the subject. Because i have many international friends and would love to keep sending abroad, but not at the risk i lose everything because someone can go through with their end of an agreed upon sale.

Most people are not trying to get over, most people in the knife community are great people and do their best to do the right thing, so its a shame when a simple contract cant be followed. And a sellers terms in a sale is considered a contract once the buyer agrees. Like Thomas said, if this was a legal matter and paypal was not involved there would be no question. And this was the reason i never accepted paypal until recently when i went "orange" I decided paypal was an evil necessity to be a regular seller because most buyers prefer it, but its becoming apparent thats its really not beneficial to sellers, as it wont protect them at all.
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It's simple forethought and CYA. IF a seller is going to set his own terms (a contract) of a sale. Then they should have forethought enough to have the buyer agree to those terms in writing with a signature. When you buy a car "As Is", you bet the seller has you sign a bill of sale stating such.
Then there can be no dispute as to what the agreement was. It may not keep you out of court, but at least you will have some proof once you get there. Whether it's a sale, or a service such as paypal, if you don't like the terms, you are not obligated to purchase or use the service. But if you fail to CYA with documentation, you may be liable even in a court of law.
 
When shipping in the states I have 100% confidence in the USPS . I have shipped over 1000 packages whiteout one incident. So the risk is very small if you pack well and can spell and write clearly.

International is another story..I don't trust shipping anything out of this country . I will only sell with buying taking 100% responsibility . I just returned a payment for a buyer in the Ukraine . I spelled out exactly how I wanted payment . Buyer sends funds goods. I clicked refund and buyer was less than thrilled. But I am not going to take that kind of risk after all they are the ones that want the knife . With all that said I have sold at least 15 knives to various people outside of the US with Zero problems.

As far as fees I don't mind paying them ... it's just when the trolls try and lowball you into selling them something that they want and also expect dinner and a movie to boot. We can all be fair and end the day as friends buying and selling if everyone is fair and reasonable.
 
I insure EVERYTHING..
I also will REQUIRE Signature for new folks I have never dealt with
NOW on a rare occasion I sell overseas
I will make myself CLEAR
After messages exchanged and payment received.
I will print postage PACKAGE VERY VERY securely--
BUT AFTER I drop at post office-ups..whatever carrier.
I will help track it.. ALTHOUGH after it leaves my hands
I will not take responsibility for seizure by CUstoms-Stolen-Misdelivered...etc
I ask buyer to double and triple check mailing address I verify..print and ship..
Now in USA
I INSURE INSURE INSURE And not just the 50 buck USPS gives. I out of pocket (If I ship FOR free)
Insure for full value of item paid for..
 
This whole thread is completely moot if the transaction is done properly through paypal goods.

worldwood said:
If you agree to the terms a buyer sets forth you should be honest enough to keep your side of the deal. This entire thread makes me worry that people will agree to the terms and still try and file a claim. Talk about dishonest.
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Dishonest? Wait, who is being dishonest? What about the terms a person agrees to when signing up for paypal? Do those not matter? So it is okay to circumvent paypal terms but not the ones set forth in a sale? It is okay to use the gift option even though it is against the agreed upon paypal terms?

What is worrying is that some people don't understand that the only terms that matter are the ones stipulated by paypal.
 
Actually those who think the seller passes on the PayPal fees to the buyer no matter what are slightly wrong -- I for instance, do not do any calculations but come up with a number I'll be comfortable selling it, typically depending on how much rush I am in, (at that point I don't even know how much postage and PayPal fees it is going to cost). Also, there are other ways of accepting payment, and PayPal is not the end of the world. For international, trust is he key - so I investigate the buyer - his areas of posts on bladeforums, his length of membership, his Google reputation (full name + country turns up magical info), and then proceed with the deal accordingly. I haven't had a single international deal go South. If you do your homework, it's not that difficult as it sounds.

And most importantly, if your sales thread is rooted in honesty, and you play by all rules (those of bladeforums, PayPal, your own, foreign customs and shipping company), chances of recourse in your favor are significantly higher.

This is a hobby, and not a business venture - there is a big difference in the levels of stress displayed if things don't work out to my liking here. ;-)
 
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