I'm not responsible if something goes wrong ... insurance, pay pal...

[ooitzoo]

This is a common thing especially for international sales. In country i believe its the sellers responsibility to get the buyer their product or reimburse them, outside the US its not possible to offer any type of guarantee. ANYONE who has done much international shipping knows this and thats why its commonly posted.

Stuff like this post will make sellers STOP selling internationally. How can they feel protected? As a seller i cant get reimbursed no matter how much insurance i have on an item once it leaves the US.

Insurance is for the BUYER as well. The seller can turn over proof of insurance and original receipt and the buyer can get reimbursed through it. Not only the seller. Both parties can file the claim with the proper paperwork.

First off insurance only covers the item in THIS country, Once it leaves the US its out of a sellers hands. A seller cant be held responsible for another country losing the package. Its of no fault to the seller. How is that fair to the seller? No one gets reimbursed but the seller gets screwed.

If a package goes missing once it leaves this country and you indeed insured and shipped it you can contact paypal and show them the original sales agreement, tracking will show it left the country and therefor you fulfilled your obligation. I had something goes missing headed to me, i tried to file the dispute with paypal, but the seller proved they shipped the item and that the USPS lost it and i NEVER got reimbursed because of the original sales agreement. They didnt even insure it. So paypal will not ALWAYS side with the buyer despite what they or anyone else says.

As far as "more and more people are doing it for money" Why else would a maker spend HOURS and HOURS working on a knife and then turn around and sell it if not for the money?

All that being said, I have shipped THOUSANDS of dollars worth of knives overseas and never had a single issue with one of my packages. But due to post like this ill be much more careful who i deal with. Ill link to this post and explain why i will ONLY take gift option for international sales. Just not fair to the seller to get screwed because another country looses a package. Its not being dishonest, its being practical.

Again im ONLY speaking for international sales, not domestic. In country we, as sellers, can be reimbursed if properly insured. Outside the US there is no recourse you can take.

I agree with this post.

I believe, in the US, the "seller holds responsibility for delivery" rule is precisely the right answer.

Internationally, I see the following possibilities:
1 - Seller holds responsibility. If that's the case, then I (and I believe others) will simply post a "NO SALES INTERNATIONALLY" rule. No one is particularly well served by this since neither the seller nor the buyer benefit.
2 - Seller holds responsibility for shipping, getting it out of the door in a timely fashion, and the contents (provided they arrive.) The buyer takes the delivery risk. In essence, this shares the burden and doesn't hold a seller unfairly accountable for practices in a country in which he has no control or residency. The seller is still responsible for getting the package out and making sure is properly described, packaged, and paid for. Given scenario #1, both sides win in this arrangement since buyer gets his goods (or, atleast, can goto customs to complain if he doesn't) and seller gets his $$.

My preferred scenario is #2 but, if I am going to face some sort of action by BF for it then I can easily post "NO INTERNATIONAL SALES" in all my threads and call it a day. I just don't believe that's the right answer. Aside from ostracizing international knifenuts, who benefits in that scenario?

 

[Pellel2]

USPS does not insure internationally because when it leaves USA it goes to the country's courier thus can't ensure safe postal practices.

If you want full insurance on international parcels use a bonded courier such as UPS, DHL or FedEx. They provide full international I surance as the package is always within their own postal system and not somebody's else.

Example, if I ship a knife from US to Canada...using USPS it will be in USPS until it leaves USA and then it becomes Canada Post once it lands in Canada. If I ship it via UPS it leaves USA and gets delivered to me in Canada by UPS. Bonded courier will always fully insured their packages.

Anything over $1K I tend to use UPS fully insured to USA or anywhere. If it is less than $1K I use normal Canada Post. Canada Post will insure up to $5K nationally and $1K internationally .

I have been on both side of the fence on this. It is plain stupid to have such as childish attitude like "I am not responsible" . like others have said you got paid for something so make sure it gets to that person . if I told my seller well since you are not gonna be responsible for the package I won't be responsible if the money is there in 2 weeks. It is just nonsense attitude and it is better just to move on from sales like these and avoid headaches. The responsibility of item delivery is on the seller ....the insurance is for the seller plain and simple.

 

[knife dragon]

Firstly, this should be posted in feedback. Secondly, most sellers say "not responsible once it leaves my hands" specifically for international purchases. Customs and international shipping are notorious for losing or seizing packages. I'd also assume that most of not all sellers insure the knife for full value. I know I do, and I always pay out of pocket for it. It sounds like you probably got burned in a deal, just be aware that the majority of guys here are honest and do things the right way.

It's not feedback dude. These thoughts have been on my mind quite a few times. i felt like i wanted to get it off my chest; and at the same time make a small dent in the mindset of Buyers to let them know that they matter more taken too many sellers would have them believe.

You are also not accurate imho about most sellers say... I have been on blade/JD, and elsewhere long enough to see that statement in the minority, not the majority of sales threads. FYI, sorry but didn't get burned in a deal. Stop listening/reading into/assuming things that are not written it just makes for muddy waters needlessly imho. Still, no harm n foul. thx.

Saying that doesn't make it true.



Nope. The buyer has recourse through eBay, PayPal, their credit card company, etc. If you buy something and it never shows up, it is the seller's responsibility.

well yes, i agree with what you said and know it too. i neglected to state the obvious & put n into proper perspective. I did want to say that i felt the same way. Just because someone says... doesn't mean that you are legally bound by it. Sorry, i get a little distracted quite often while posting & my mental sin't nearly as efficient as it used to be. i appreciate your post. thx.

Great minds think alike! Like Striderco, I came up with the same solution for most of the problems mentioned in this thread - it is 100% effective.

Drum roll please . . .

Yes, great minds often do think alike. Fortunately i have lived long enough to know for a fact that twisted, stunted, horrible, and inept minds also think alike too. Drum roll pretty please with sugar on top . . .

Superficial assertions that happen to be true do not take into consideration the essence of why I posted this thread. I already knew that since I'm not special there had to be tons of folks who felt like i did, but never voiced their concerns for whatever reason. I did not start this thread just to vent or help myself.

I guess that means that Great Minds can be dull ones too in this case huh ! :untroubled:

 

[Bob W]

It's like when a store puts up a sign, "We are not responsible for accidents," or some such B.S.

 

[chickenfried]

Caught my eye too. Seems like a squirrely disclaimer, wouldn't do business with them. I could see if it was regarding international shipping. But just a blanket statement? Next...

True people don't have to buy if they don't like what they see. Folks running the site don't have to allow behavior that seems fishy either.

 

[Thomas Linton]

It's like when a store puts up a sign, "We are not responsible for accidents," or some such B.S.

Different body of law, but the same motivation. But if that's the deal you make, you have no beef.

I tend to skip such sellers because I have no control over packaging or the ID of the carrier.

 

[d00mtr33]

As a buyer I always use the goods option, id rathef pay extra $3to $20 and cover my ass in case anything happens. As a seller for any item over $50 I pay for insurance out of my pocket to again cover my butt. I don't think the buyer is responsible for it, if it gets lost before it arrives, guess what, thats the sellers problem, not the buyers. Id give them a full refund and try to get my money from the post office. I hate when I get a $500 knive and it comes without insurance, I guess the seller felt it ok to risk it but thats why I payed the extra $15 to covef myself in case anything happened to it. International shipping is another issue though, im not a fan of doing it but since things do happen in customs, I dont think I should be punished since some greedy customs agent decided he want that knife or it gets lost.

 

[dejard]

If you want full insurance on international parcels use a bonded courier such as UPS, DHL or FedEx. They provide full international I surance as the package is always within their own postal system and not somebody's else.

That's not entirely accurate.

None of the three carriers (UPS, USPS, FedEx) offer actual insurance for packages despite the fact that the USPS calls it that. What they do offer is a "Declared Value" of the item(s) being shipped for a fee, which only represents the carrier's "…maximum liability for the package in the case of loss or damage."

What the customer is buying is simply the privilege to declare a maximum liability value (over $100) in the event the carrier is found liable for the damaged or missing package. And guess who determines whether the carrier is liable for damages...

It's one of the largest misconceptions that people have when they think they are purchasing insurance for their UPS, USPS, or FedEx packages. It's NOT insurance, and claims are contingent upon all sorts of limitations, restrictions, etc., with the most prevalent reason for denying claims being improper packaging. For example, if UPS didn't pack your package contents themselves at one of their retail outlets, it's almost assured that they will reject your "insurance" claim. The stories of people being swindled by this process (aka SCAM) year after year are all over the internet.

From the UPS website:

UPS Declared Value Q&A

Q. What is declared value? Is it insurance?

A. Declared value is not insurance coverage. The declared value of a package represents UPS's maximum liability for the package in the case of loss or damage. If no value is declared, UPS's maximum liability for loss or damage to a package or international shipment is US$100 (or the equivalent in local currency).

Shippers sending goods with values exceeding US$100 can choose to declare a higher value for the goods, up to certain maximum amounts and subject to restrictions, by paying an additional charge.

UPS is not liable for loss or damage to a package that is not properly packed to withstand the series of movements through the small package environment (as described in the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service (see Section on Responsibility for Loss or Damage). In such a case, even if the shipper declares a value for the package in excess of $100, UPS will not reimburse the shipper for the damage to the package. (Read these tips on how to properly pack a package.)

Limits on declared value and restrictions on UPS's liability (including for packages not adequately packaged as described in more detail below) are described in the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service, available at ups.com. For non-U.S.-origin shipments, please refer to the UPS Terms and Conditions of the origin country.

 

[Pellel2]

That's not entirely accurate.

None of the three carriers (UPS, USPS, FedEx) offer actual insurance for packages despite the fact that the USPS calls it that. What they do offer is a "Declared Value" of the item(s) being shipped for a fee, which only represents the carrier's "…maximum liability for the package in the case of loss or damage."

What the customer is buying is simply the privilege to declare a maximum liability value (over $100) in the event the carrier is found liable for the damaged or missing package. And guess who determines whether the carrier is liable for damages...

It's one of the largest misconceptions that people have when they think they are purchasing insurance for their UPS, USPS, or FedEx packages. It's NOT insurance, and claims are contingent upon all sorts of limitations, restrictions, etc., with the most prevalent reason for denying claims being improper packaging. For example, if UPS didn't pack your package contents themselves at one of their retail outlets, it's almost assured that they will reject your "insurance" claim. The stories of people being swindled by this process (aka SCAM) year after year are all over the internet.

From the UPS website:

Yes this is correct if you use your UPS account. I had to go thru this recently and I had to go to the actual UPS store and buy their insurance directly off the store. When I called UPS what you are saying is 100% correct which surprised me. The grey zone is if the package gets damaged. If the package is lost from my understanding is a more straight forward situation.

 

[worldwood]

Dejard, thats not entirely accurate either. Well its not accurate at all really when it comes to USPS, i dont have experience with the other carriers.

Declared value and insurance is 2 different things. USPS does INDEED offer insurance stateside. Insurance in the USA for USPS is actually quite decent. If you purchase insurance and the package is lost you can get reimbursed. And the process is not that difficult. I have had several buddies that did indeed pay for insurance and need to file a claim and they were reimbursed the full value of the item/s PLUS the shipping costs.

A package one seller on this forum sent to me got lost, he had it insured, and he was reimbursed. All was well.

Now if you insure for MORE than the value you will still only get reimbursed ACTUAL value, and not what you insured for, if you purchase insurance for less than the value you will only get up to the amount you insured at. And you have to prove actual value, this can be done with the receipt of payment for the item you sent or even a printed page showing what a similar item costs.

 

[dejard]

Yes this is correct if you use your UPS account. I had to go thru this recently and I had to go to the actual UPS store and buy their insurance directly off the store. When I called UPS what you are saying is 100% correct which surprised me. The grey zone is if the package gets damaged. If the package is lost from my understanding is a more straight forward situation.

I witnessed this process several years ago regarding a guitar, and they denied the "insurance" claim because it wasn't packaged at one of their retail stores. I did a bit of research on this afterwards and was blown away at how prevalent UPS denies claims, and the almost universal belief by UPS customers who think they're buying insurance when they're not.

 

[dejard]

Dejard, thats not entirely accurate either. Well its not accurate at all really when it comes to USPS, i dont have experience with the other carriers.

Declared value and insurance is 2 different things. USPS does INDEED offer insurance stateside. Insurance in the USA for USPS is actually quite decent. If you purchase insurance and the package is lost you can get reimbursed. And the process is not that difficult. I have had several buddies that did indeed pay for insurance and need to file a claim and they were reimbursed the full value of the item/s PLUS the shipping costs.

A package one seller on this forum sent to me got lost, he had it insured, and he was reimbursed. All was well.

Now if you insure for MORE than the value you will still only get reimbursed ACTUAL value, and not what you insured for, if you purchase insurance for less than the value you will only get up to the amount you insured at. And you have to prove actual value, this can be done with the receipt of payment for the item you sent or even a printed page showing what a similar item costs.

From what I've read (e.g., see http://www.bankrate.com/finance/insurance/shipping-insurance.aspx#slide=2), USPS uses the language of both "insurance" and "declared value" to describe their process. The difference, as you point out, is they're much better by a long shot in honoring claims, which puts them in an entirely different league than UPS. It's the reason why I ship with USPS and never UPS or FedEx.

 

[Pellel2]

I witnessed this process several years ago regarding a guitar, and they denied the "insurance" claim because it wasn't packaged at one of their retail stores. I did a bit of research on this afterwards and was blown away at how prevalent UPS denies claims, and the almost universal belief by UPS customers who think they're buying insurance when they're not.

Did you actually buy the UPS insurance?? It cost me $3 for $100 of package value. I agree with you that UPS does not really explain well their nomenclature to their online customers but if you call or go to their store they explain everything for you. The manager did have a smile when I pointed out the "declared value" option in the packaging slip as been said insurance. She explained the same you quoted and said customers think that's insurance included in the shipping but it is not.

Again there is a big difference on how they deal with a damaged good claim than a missing/lost package claim. I can see how they are more strict on the first of the two and how people can abuse the system

 

[dejard]

Did you actually buy the UPS insurance?? It cost me $3 for $100 of package value. I agree with you that UPS does not really explain well their nomenclature to their online customers but if you call or go to their store they explain everything for you. The manager did have a smile when I pointed out the "declared value" option in the packaging slip as been said insurance. She explained the same you quoted and said customers think that's insurance included in the shipping but it is not.

Again there is a big difference on how they deal with a damaged good claim than a missing/lost package claim. I can see how they are more strict on the first of the two and how people can abuse the system

No, this happened to a guitar that I bought, and the seller paid for the UPS "declared value," doing everything he was supposed to do, including double boxing, hard-casing the guitar, etc. He followed everything according to UPS policies with the packaging, but because he didn't have UPS staff at the retail store pack the guitar for him, they denied the claim.

I wasn't out anything. The seller understood that his responsibility ended only when the guitar was safely in my hands to my satisfaction. Unfortunately, that never transpired because of UPS's negligence at some point along their delivery chain. He was out a pristine guitar that was packaged like a tank and abused by the UPS delivery system.

Most people don't realize what it is they're buying and agreeing to when they purchase UPS delivery "insurance." It's only when something goes wrong that they find out how much that cheap non-protection cost them.

 

[Ludwig]

Yes, great minds often do think alike. Fortunately i have lived long enough to know for a fact that twisted, stunted, horrible, and inept minds also think alike too. Drum roll pretty please with sugar on top . . .

Superficial assertions that happen to be true do not take into consideration the essence of why I posted this thread. I already knew that since I'm not special there had to be tons of folks who felt like i did, but never voiced their concerns for whatever reason. I did not start this thread just to vent or help myself.

I guess that means that Great Minds can be dull ones too in this case huh ! :untroubled:

You asked for opinions and you got one. You are the one choosing to focus on just the first two lines from my entire reply which addresses pretty much everything in your initial post . . .

My stance is simply this: buyers should be able to spend their money as they please just as sellers should be able to create their listings as they please. I will take a "free market" any day as long as both parties are honest, upfront, and stand behind their word per the official rules.

Why some people take umbrage at the fact their BF brethren want to have the gift option or that they have to spend 10 seconds doing a calculation for a net price is perplexing. Almost ZERO listings actually require the gift option.

And if you want insurance protection, just let the seller know and they will give you the total price. Hell I cover insurance out of pocket for most pricier items despite my disclaimer because I consider many of the people here friends and I want them covered too.

From personal experience, a couple hundred deals in with both parties happy every time, and things seem to be just fine as they are.

 

[BP Green]

And if you want insurance protection, just let the seller know and they will give you the total price. Hell I cover insurance out of pocket for most pricier items despite my disclaimer because I consider many of the people here friends and I want them covered too.

I've already paid the seller his asking price for an item I don't have in my possession. It his responsibility toget that item into my hands. Why would I pay insurance on something I've already paid for but is in the possession of the seller? I got the money to him, he now has the money and the item. Again, It is his responsibility to get the item to me now.

 

[Thomas Linton]

Why some people take umbrage at the fact their BF brethren want to have the gift option or that they have to spend 10 seconds doing a calculation for a net price is perplexing. Almost ZERO listings actually require the gift option.

Perhaps because they are asking the buyer to assist in defrauding PayPal and risk being banned by PayPal to boot.

Or not.

 

[craytab]

I will take a "free market" any day as long as both parties are honest, upfront, and stand behind their word per the official rules.

Why some people take umbrage at the fact their BF brethren want to have the gift option or that they have to spend 10 seconds doing a calculation for a net price is perplexing. Almost ZERO listings actually require the gift option.

And if you want insurance protection, just let the seller know and they will give you the total price. Hell I cover insurance out of pocket for most pricier items despite my disclaimer because I consider many of the people here friends and I want them covered too.

What official rules are these? The ones you made up?

If using paypal, goods transactions are to be paid using the goods option. Otherwise you are breaking the rules and defrauding paypal. If using paypal goods, the seller is 100% responsible for the item until it reaches the buyer. You as a seller not covering your own butt by not getting insurance is risking loss. You as a seller asking for or accepting payment for extra insurance means you have a foolish buyer because under paypal goods rules, the seller is responsible for the item until it reaches the buyer, IE insurance is always on the seller.

To handle things any other way or this "free market" you speak of is to risk loss on both parties depending on what the unfortunate circumstance is.

This will not apply to international sales but here in the states all that is needed is to follow these simple rules:

Buyers: only use paypal goods. Sellers: insure your sold item. If something goes wrong you are both covered. Pretty damn simple......

 

[Ludwig]

I've already paid the seller his asking price for an item I don't have in my possession. It his responsibility toget that item into my hands. Why would I pay insurance on something I've already paid for but is in the possession of the seller? I got the money to him, he now has the money and the item. Again, It is his responsibility to get the item to me now.

We disagree on fundamental grounds - no worries. If you want the seller to take the responsibility, then you request the insurance he is offering. That is now equal to his asking price on your terms. Having dealt with FOB origin vs destination in my previous lines of work, the idea of a buyer paying insurance is just not that outlandish to me.

But all of that is moot anyway because you get to choose whether or not you want to make a purchase. If you enter a thread and see the seller mention this stipulation upfront (as it should be stated), then you just hit the back button and look elsewhere.

Perhaps because they are asking the buyer to assist in defrauding PayPal and risk being banned by PayPal to boot.

Or not.

Not really. My examples have always been regarding sellers who ask for a net amount meaning they will accept goods with the fees or friends and family - buyer's choice. Show me a seller who requires friends and family payments only and I will brandish my trusty pitchfork right along with you.

Does everyone here check the local knife laws where each of their buyers live? Because if you send a prohibited item, you just violated the PayPal agreement and risk being banned by PayPal. I play by their rules 9 times out of 10 but I do not root my moral compass in their terms and conditions.

What official rules are these? The ones you made up?

If using paypal, goods transactions are to be paid using the goods option. Otherwise you are breaking the rules and defrauding paypal. If using paypal goods, the seller is 100% responsible for the item until it reaches the buyer. You as a seller not covering your own butt by not getting insurance is risking loss. You as a seller asking for or accepting payment for extra insurance means you have a foolish buyer because under paypal goods rules, the seller is responsible for the item until it reaches the buyer, IE insurance is always on the seller.

To handle things any other way or this "free market" you speak of is to risk loss on both parties depending on what the unfortunate circumstance is.

This will not apply to international sales but here in the states all that is needed is to follow these simple rules:

Buyers: only use paypal goods. Sellers: insure your sold item. If something goes wrong you are both covered. Pretty damn simple......

LOL - I pulled that rule you mentioned nearly verbatim from the official rules thread. You know - the stickied one that Spark wrote . . .

I hold the sales terms and options of my BladeForums brethren sacred over those of PayPal. If you want to be abide by every PayPal condition and be an ideal user for them, that is fine by me. I want you to have that option just as I want to have mine. You can hit backspace and move onto another listing on principle, I will happily send a PM to work things out so both parties are happy. It just gets old hearing people talk about following the PayPal rules like we live under sharia law.

 

[craytab]

LOL - I pulled that rule you mentioned nearly verbatim from the official rules thread. You know - the stickied one that Spark wrote . . .

I see what you did there. This debate is long standing with the higher ups. BFC has chosen to stay out of it. Frankly, I don't blame BFC. Can you imagine the headache of dealing with all the brain dead folks who lose their money or item and come knocking on the BFC door? Yuck.

That doesn't mean good folks can't warn other people about how not to get screwed.

I hold the sales terms and options of my BladeForums brethren sacred over those of PayPal. If you want to be abide by every PayPal condition and be an ideal user for them, that is fine by me. I want you to have that option just as I want to have mine. You can hit backspace and move onto another listing on principle, I will happily send a PM to work things out so both parties are happy.

Well aren't you noble I don't think you are a person to worry about but they are certainly out there.

It just gets old hearing people talk about following the PayPal rules like we live under sharia law.

Well okay then...