I'm not responsible if something goes wrong ... insurance, pay pal...

craytab said:
Well aren't you noble ;) I don't think you are a person to worry about but they are certainly out there.
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Why thank you! Means a lot coming from a White Knight of the PayPal UA ;)

Joking aside, the writing is on the wall in regards to gift payments. It is mentioned specifically in the rules and has been brought up in GB&U plenty of times. The guys still sending gift to members with little feedback and no history on BF only have themselves to blame. They are the outliers as plenty of gift deals are completed successfully and thus quietly.

Hope none of my comments in this thread came off too contentious gentlemen - just lively debate :thumbup:
 
Ludwig said:
We disagree on fundamental grounds - no worries. If you want the seller to take the responsibility, then you request the insurance he is offering. That is now equal to his asking price on your terms. Having dealt with FOB origin vs destination in my previous lines of work, the idea of a buyer paying insurance is just not that outlandish to me.
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It doesn't matter how reasonable or outlandish it may sound to you, me, or anyone else. If the transaction is done through PayPal, it's the full responsibility of the seller to get the item in the buyer's hands, period. If that doesn't happen, the seller would lose on any buyer initiated PayPal claim for non-delivery or damage. Blade Forums isn't the financial entity through which the transaction is taking place.

Insurance is not for the benefit of the buyer but for the seller. It covers the shipper's (i.e., the seller's) losses in the event of a lost or damaged package during shipment. Even if the buyer told the seller that he/she didn't want the insurance, the seller would still be fully responsible for the package arriving in the buyer's hands in the originally stated/purchased condition and, thus, liable to the buyer for any mishaps in transit.

You may disagree with that on "fundamental grounds" but PayPal doesn't need to take your fundamental grounds into consideration. And I believe the same would be true with most credit card companies. Simply put, sellers need to figure that expense into the non-optional shipping and handling or total asking price.
 
dejard said:
It doesn't matter how reasonable or outlandish it may sound to you, me, or anyone else. If the transaction is done through PayPal, it's the full responsibility of the seller to get the item in the buyer's hands, period. If that doesn't happen, the seller would lose on any buyer initiated PayPal claim for non-delivery or damage. Blade Forums isn't the financial entity through which the transaction is taking place.

Insurance is not for the benefit of the buyer but for the seller. It covers the shipper's (i.e., the seller's) losses in the event of a lost or damaged package during shipment. Even if the buyer told the seller that he/she didn't want the insurance, the seller would still be fully responsible for the package arriving in the buyer's hands in the originally stated/purchased condition and, thus, liable to the buyer for any mishaps in transit.

You may disagree with that on "fundamental grounds" but PayPal doesn't need to take your fundamental grounds into consideration. And I believe the same would be true with most credit card companies. Simply put, sellers need to figure that expense into the non-optional shipping and handling or total asking price.
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Some of us want to be great PayPal members and some of us want to be great BladeForums members. Plenty of room in between and I aspire to be both but the latter is far more important.

I covered everything you said here already. Good luck in your future dealings.

Stepping away from this thread - happy Thanksgiving all!

PS: make sure you check those knife laws if you really want to follow all of the PayPal rules
 
Let me put it another way. A seller who gives the buyer the choice to pay for the shipping insurance is opening him/herself up for a loss if something goes wrong, whether done through PayPal, Amazon Marketplace, or most credit card companies. This is not an issue of showing allegiance to either PayPal or Blade Forums. It's an issue of smart selling.
dejard said:
Simply put, sellers need to figure that expense into the non-optional shipping and handling or total asking price.
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If the goods are not received and the seller doesn't give you a refund it is still considered MAIL FRAUD. You should see how fast the refunds come when the Postal inspectors knock on the door.

Nothing on knives......

PayPal
Prohibited Activities financial exploitation of a crime, (f) items that are considered obscene, (g) items that infringe or violate any copyright, trademark, right of publicity or privacy or any other proprietary right under the laws of any jurisdiction, (h) certain sexually oriented materials or services, (i) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories, or (j) ,certain weapons or knives regulated under applicable law.
 
Monofletch said:
If the goods are not received and the seller doesn't give you a refund it is still considered MAIL FRAUD. You should see how fast the refunds come when the Postal inspectors knock on the door.
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Wrong.

People please at least read about things before posting something like this. A simple google search will show this is incorrect.

In the United States, mail and wire fraud is any fraudulent scheme to intentionally deprive another of property or honest services via mail or wire communication. It has been a federal crime in the United States since 1872.

Intentionally being the key word. if it was lost in the mail clearly the seller wasnt intentionally trying to deprive the buyer of anything.

In the US i believe, as i have stated, that the seller is responsible to get the buyer their item/s. The easiest thing to do is list the items for sale with the paypal fees and shipping and insurance fees already calculated in and list it for sell with paypal goods. Then insure it at the price you sell it for.

Internationally is a completely different ball game. I called the USPS the other day and the lady i spoke to said there is no way to actually guarantee an item gets delivered. They do have different options you can do to help the chances but you still might lose out if the package is lost in another country. I asked about Registered insured mail for internationally and she said that its a case by case basis for determining how much you MAY get reimbursed.
 
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Monofletch said:
Nothing on knives......

PayPal
Prohibited Activities financial exploitation of a crime, (f) items that are considered obscene, (g) items that infringe or violate any copyright, trademark, right of publicity or privacy or any other proprietary right under the laws of any jurisdiction, (h) certain sexually oriented materials or services, (i) ammunition, firearms, or certain firearm parts or accessories, or (j) ,certain weapons or knives regulated under applicable law.
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I have copy/pasted the below information straight from paypal. There are butterfly knives, auto knives, knucks, and other items sold using paypal here and other places all the time. This is not allowed according to paypal yet lots of people still do it and there is no rules against it per Bladeforums rules.

PayPal prohibits transactions for certain hand weapons or knives that may be illegal or restricted in some jurisdictions.

Weapons – PayPal generally prohibits transactions for these types of weapons:
Nunchaku.
Brass or other metal knuckles.
Leaded canes, staffs, crutches, or sticks.
Zip guns, shurikens or throwing stars.
Hand grenades or metal replica hand grenades.
Billyclubs or batons, sandclubs, sandbags, or slungshots (also known as saps or blackjacks).
For other hand weapons, sellers must ensure the weapon is lawful in both the buyer's and seller's jurisdiction before completing the sale.

Knives – PayPal generally prohibits transactions for switchblade knives and disguised knives. A switchblade is any knife resembling a pocketknife with a blade that can be released automatically or by use of a trigger. Other names for switchblades include spring-blade knives, snap-blade knives, gravity knives, and butterfly knives.

A disguised knife is a knife designed to look like a harmless item. Examples of disguised knives include belt buckle knives, cane swords, shobi-zue, lipstick case knives, air gauge knives, and writing pen knives.

Other Related Items – PayPal prohibits transactions for destructive devices and the sale of military equipment or supplies that violate laws or regulations in the buyer's or seller's jurisdiction.
 
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worldwood said:
Wrong.

People please at least read about things before posting something like this. A simple google search will show this is incorrect.

In the United States, mail and wire fraud is any fraudulent scheme to intentionally deprive another of property or honest services via mail or wire communication. It has been a federal crime in the United States since 1872.

Intentionally being the key word. if it was lost in the mail clearly the seller wasnt intentionally trying to deprive the buyer of anything.

In the US i believe, as i have stated, that the seller is responsible to get the buyer their item/s. The easiest thing to do is list the items for sale with the paypal fees and shipping and insurance fees already calculated in and list it for sell with paypal goods. Then insure it at the price you sell it for.

Internationally is a completely different ball game. I called the USPS the other day and the lady i spoke to said there is no way to actually guarantee an item gets delivered. They do have different options you can do to help the chances but you still might lose out if the package is lost in another country. I asked about Registered insured mail for internationally and she said that its a case by case basis for determining how much you MAY get reimbursed.
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A couple of years ago I bought a bow on Archherytalk. Without having to type 100 pages of details --here are the highlights......
His post was "TYD Priority/insured". I paid with a postal m.o. Bow never arrived. waited the 30 days...no bow- he refused to give me my $$ back. Said he shipped it and the post office stole it. He shipped it Priority with no insurance. I contacted the Postal Inspectors- filed a complaint. They contacted him. I had a postal money order overnighted to me by the weeks end.

Who's incorrect? NON- delivery of goods or services is intentionally depriving a buyer. Once money is exchanged it is on the seller to fulfill the agreement. If it's through the mail it's MAIL FRAUD.
 
Listing it as insured and not insuring it is intentional fraud.

But its thanksgiving day so im out. Happy thanksgiving to all! Have fun. Eat too much. Drink just enough. And take a minute to actually be thankful for what really matters most. Family and friends!
 
The tone and stance of your post really rub me the wrong way, but here's the one thing I'll say:

If someone says fully insured it should be insured to the selling price.
 
Monofletch said:
NON- delivery of goods or services is intentionally depriving a buyer. Once money is exchanged it is on the seller to fulfill the agreement. If it's through the mail it's MAIL FRAUD.
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Once a contract is made, it's up to both parties to perform what they promised to do.

Failure to perform a contract, without proof beyond a reasonable doubt of intent not to perform, is breach of contract. That's a civil, not a criminal, matter.

A pattern of failure to perform may be evidence of intent not to perform -- or something else we can't talk about except on the political forum.
 
A seller can place any conditions on the sale that he dang well pleases, and the buyer can take it or leave it. All of this "should" stuff really has no bearing on it. Let freedom ring, say I!
 
ALLHSS said:
The tone and stance of your post really rub me the wrong way, but here's the one thing I'll say:

If someone says fully insured it should be insured to the selling price.
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Not sure how my posts can rub you the wrong way when im listing stuff directly how its posted on paypal, USPS etc. And i was commenting to someone other than you. But im not being negative in any way, just to trying to debate things in a clear manner with the facts i can find. The thing about the internet is its very hard to tell intention by reading words. If the way i type comes off as being hostile its really not meant to be.

And as far as insurance goes, I always fully insure at value or what the receiver asks if different than full value. i have shipped THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of dollars worth of knives and never had a person upset with me. I proxied knives to Australia for over a year for several members here on BF and every one of them will tell you i did so honestly and they always got their goods.

Its easy for people to get upset and let their opinions come out. Thats what i have been trying to avoid. So i call USPS, i search Paypal's site and try and keep things with as much fact as i can. I have said more than once i think that sellers are responsible to get the product to the buyer in the US as they can insure and be reimbursed if something goes wrong. Internationally, again, is a different thing entirely.
 
worldwood said:
Not sure how my posts can rub you the wrong way when im listing stuff directly how its posted on paypal, USPS etc. And i was commenting to someone other than you. But im not being negative in any way, just to trying to debate things in a clear manner with the facts i can find. The thing about the internet is its very hard to tell intention by reading words. If the way i type comes off as being hostile its really not meant to be.

And as far as insurance goes, I always fully insure at value or what the receiver asks if different than full value. i have shipped THOUSANDS and THOUSANDS of dollars worth of knives and never had a person upset with me. I proxied knives to Australia for over a year for several members here on BF and every one of them will tell you i did so honestly and they always got their goods.

Its easy for people to get upset and let their opinions come out. Thats what i have been trying to avoid. So i call USPS, i search Paypal's site and try and keep things with as much fact as i can. I have said more than once i think that sellers are responsible to get the product to the buyer in the US as they can insure and be reimbursed if something goes wrong. Internationally, again, is a different thing entirely.
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Was responding to the thread/op. Would have quoted you had I been responding to you. No offense to you or the op meant, I just think the way the first post was written was not the appropriate way to express concerns over these issues.
 
ALLHSS said:
Was responding to the thread/op. Would have quoted you had I been responding to you. No offense to you or the op meant, I just think the way the first post was written was not the appropriate way to express concerns over these issues.
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I apologize, i was confused and wondering what i said that could of bothered you LOL, again my mistake.

Ok time for us all to have a great day!!
 
worldwood said:
I apologize, i was confused and wondering what i said that could of bothered you LOL, again my mistake.

Ok time for us all to have a great day!!
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No problem man, I woke up with my eyes and throat almost closed (and my nose fully flosed) from allergies and I may have been feeling feisty when I commented the first two times.

I have only had one package lost, and it was in a situation where I was the seller. I refunded the person. I think like every situation, it boils down to "don't be a jerk".
 
powernoodle said:
A seller can place any conditions on the sale that he dang well pleases, and the buyer can take it or leave it. All of this "should" stuff really has no bearing on it. Let freedom ring, say I!
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Very true. And I can sell a dog poop pumpkin pie, calling it a super knife tuning fork. With paypal friends, completely acceptable!

No reason the reasonable can't warn the unreasoned. Damn I just came up with that!

Any who. ....
 
It all boils down to integrity. You have it or you don't.
Dishonesty is actually a character flaw that no one should be proud enough to openly flaunt. Especially in a public forum.
 
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