Inflated prices

[Chariotz4]

More closely related to the original topic, as others have previously mentioned, among those of us who aren't fans of flippers, there definitely seems to be a majority consensus on the extremes of both ends of the spectrum (selling a $100 knife at cost isn't flipper behaviour while someone selling a $100 knife for %100 markup certainly is), it would seem that hashing out the grey area in the middle to define where the definition of a flipper starts and stops is likely not going to be easy task if it is at all feasible.

In my mind, the best way to apply the label would be on a case by case basis with different tiers (it's been mentioned about having members voluntarily donate their time to looking for the offenders). So if someone was identified as a "flipper", the person in question would have to be re-evaluated by at least one other person, or failing that, allowing the person identified as such to have a means of recourse (assuming there's some sort of action taken against them for "flipping"). However, to me, this layered solution doesn't seem sustainable or even workable as it's been articulated so far (although, I've certainly been wrong on many an occasion).

 

[Chariotz4]

I appreciate your thoughts and the effort you took to share them. I would submit that there is nothing inherently immoral or unethical about trying to maximize profits, especially on what for all practical purposes is a luxury item. It is, after all, the basis of the economic society that we have created which gives people the economic wherewithal to afford such luxury items in the first place.

Well likewise, I appreciate the civil reply!

I'm not disagreeing with this statement on it's own:

I would submit that there is nothing inherently immoral or unethical about trying to maximize profits, especially on what for all practical purposes is a luxury item. It is, after all, the basis of the economic society that we have created which gives people the economic wherewithal to afford such luxury items in the first place.

I am disagreeing with it in this context though: In my personal estimation, more and more lately, it seems to be the case that as a knife knut, when there's a coveted special/LE of a popular blade, a good chunk of the available models end up in the hands people who want nothing more than to make a chunk of change from them simply because they now hold some of the supply. I've been lucky enough that personally, I haven't lost out on a knife I wanted over a "refresh war" (yet!), but for those who have or were unable to participate due to things beyond their control, their only recourse is to either miss out on the run or pay the price hike - both options that are likely to leave a person less than happy. Now take this instance and play it out continually, multiple times sometimes on a daily basis, and I hope you can at least see why some of us feel the way we do.

What I'm trying to say is that in this situation, I'm disagreeing with someone who is in the community wanting to consistently turn a steep/outrageous profit off of their fellow community members, at the expense of the positive mood of the community (and some owed dues to the site in the form of an incorrect membership level). The reason I see this as a such a big deal is that, because it's a hobby for me (and for most others here I imagine), I want it to be enjoyable for me while I partake in it. If it's not, then what reason is there for me to continue participating in it?

 

[basmca]

Simply capitalism.

If people see a chance to make money they will.
Whenever there is a chance to make money no one cares about other people.

 

[Airborne 1]

The reality here is that we sell on privately owned web site ,you don't have a RIGHT to sell Here (as most of the "flippers" think they have.) It is a privilege we pay for . You can sell some places for a 100% mark up and as many sprints as you can score,but here,on Sparks web site you must buy the proper membership if you do it all the time. Sparks and his REPs Mods or who ever they choose call the shots .

 

[Armadew]

I've said it before...

It basically just boils down like this:

Some people see BladeForums as a community of friends or even family. Some do not.

The ones who do don’t like seeing their friend/family being taken advantage of. The one’s who do not don’t see a problem.

 

[ponykid]

Simply capitalism.

If people see a chance to make money they will.
Whenever there is a chance to make money no one cares about other people.

Not to get off track but capitalism is not the evil force behind peoples actions. Capitalism is what has made the world as a whole a better place for many many people. Like anything else when it is not respected and the concept is not enacted responsibly then yes bad things can happen just like when a person drives a car or has a gun in their possession. Its not the guns fault or the cars fault its the persons fault.

 

[madcap_magician]

I've said it before...

It basically just boils down like this:

Some people see BladeForums as a community of friends or even family. Some do not.

The ones who do don’t like seeing their friend/family being taken advantage of. The one’s who do not don’t see a problem.

I agree, I just don't think that someone is being taken advantage of if they're entering into a sale at a price agreed upon by both buyer and seller, even if it's a price I would not pay.

 

[shinyedges]

I agree, I just don't think that someone is being taken advantage of if they're entering into a sale at a price agreed upon by both buyer and seller, even if it's a price I would not pay.

I couldn't disagree more. Intentionally creating or perpetuating a shortage to then capitalize on, is what's happening. A guy who wants a knife to use but has a full time job that doesn't allow him to refresh the page instantly and repetitively at a specific time, so he can score a knife ends up losing out or paying some ridiculous price that he "agrees" to and you see nothing wrong with that?

At the minimum the flipper needs to pony up for a dealer membership. And be forced to abide by the rules that dealers have here.

I don't see how someone who gives a rats ass about this community can look at what's happening and see nothing wrong. Mind boggling.

 

[shinyedges]

I guess to summarize how I feel:

Bladeforums isn't eBay. It's much much more than a platform to sell and buy on. It's a compilation of knowledge from the greatest knifemakers around the world both past and present. The history, the friendships and the knowledge that resides here amount to something that many of us see as more than the sum of it's parts. Treating the people here like eBay buyers by trying to skeeze every penny out of them seems wrong. What I'm describing is intangible, you feel that way about this forum or not I suppose. Maybe this is just eBay to some folks.

Not to me.

 

[on_the_edge]

I agree, I just don't think that someone is being taken advantage of if they're entering into a sale at a price agreed upon by both buyer and seller, even if it's a price I would not pay.

If someone wants a "pound of flesh" from you in exchange for something they have, you may feel you have no other choice and give it to them. In my mind, whether one is being taken advantage of or not, clearly at least one party is not happy. Say what you will, but I try to find a point where both parties to a transaction are relatively happy. Case in point...

A number of years back, someone on here had about 30 expensive fixed blades that were also all fairly desirable. He was trying to sell them as a lot because his sister had terminal cancer and he wanted the money to take her on one last vacation. He did not have time to sell them individually under the circumstances. Seller's price for the lot was about $7000, which believe it or not was a great price for the knives. One individual who is no longer here (he was and is a well-documented flipper btw as well as other things I will refrain from saying), seeing an opportunity to take advantage, lowballed seller with an offer around $3000, likely knowing full well he had the seller in a corner. Fortunately, someone with the means saw the utter BS going on and bought the knives for the full asking price from the seller. The seller got his trip with his sister and she passed away shortly thereafter. There is more to the story after that, but it's irrelevant.

My point is made with a real-life fairly extreme story, but a parasite is still a parasite even if he doesn't happen to be sucking your blood at that particular moment. Clearly YMMV.

 

[Blues]

I say we just brand all the flippers with the Scarlet F...

 

[Peter Hartwig]

Capitalism is just an economic philosophy
It is further defined by laws and regulation to keep it from going too far amuck as well as ones personal moral & ethical compass .
Moral and ethical compasses work well to define you, but not control the whole.
That leaves laws(rules) and regulation and they set the limits you can take capitalism.
Jump to our little micro capitalist climate-there are no specific rules governing flipping and profit making, leaving us with no way to properly regulate it. There is the dealer rule and that could apply in certain circumstances, but that is up to the administration to enforce if they care to. Now the forum is a dictatorship not a democracy and Spark can make a flipper/profit rule(right or wrong) if he so chooses, but right now they are only violating(possibly) the deal membership.
Everything else is just opinion as to if there is a wrong & if it needs be addressed, but right now there isn't much that can be done about it, and as I said it is not a democracy.
I personally don't see the need for regulation of something that is acceptable in other areas of capitalism. Less rules the better. This however is just one mans opinion. Flipping is contrary to my moral & ethical compass in regards to the forum and I do not care to participate. I do look at it as a community and not a profit source.
Hope this makes some sense-you need a rule(and only Spark can provide that) if you want to pursue this. You then may be able to rid yourself of flippers, but likely they will take the knives with them rather then selling cheaper

 

[madcap_magician]

EDIT: You know what, I think at this point we're going around in circles, and having been surprised at finding myself on the opposite side of an argument of so many members I respect, and seeing that no one's opinion is likely to change, I'm going to bow out having said my piece and listened to that of others.

 

[shinyedges]

No, I don't. Is someone forcing the buyer at gunpoint to buy this luxury item? Who are you to insert yourself into this theoretical buyer's business? This buyer did agree to a 'ridiculous' price, because value is subjective, and the buyer's willingness to purchase is 100% incontrovertible evidence that he or she considers that price worthwhile. Whether that is wise is debatable. But I don't see why a bunch of meddling busybodies need to insert themselves into a voluntary transaction.

Next thing you know, uninvolved people I don't know will be trying to tell me what kind of health insurance I need to have and how much I should pay for it.

Oh wait.



I don't really have a problem with this in theory. But in practice, those terms need definition. How many sales does it take before you are a dealer? Currently I don't think people with dealer memberships actually do much direct selling on BF, since they all have their own sales web sites already. The For Sale by Dealer forum is really more of an advertising system for new products than an actual sales site.

While I think we can agree that people who spend significant amounts of time trying to jump on limited releases for the purposes of buying multiples and reselling them are definitely doing dealer-like activity, how do you define "a significant amount of time," how many multiples counts as dealing vs. having users and safe queens, and how do you verify that someone's purpose in buying was primarily to resell?



Then what you have is a failure of imagination and an inability to comprehend that people can support the same general goals as you while differing in understanding of what those specific goals are and what the best way to reach them is.

Edited, maybe to abrasive.

 

[madcap_magician]

Maybe you forgot politics don't belong anywhere outside of the political arena, or maybe you don't care. Either way you've made your stance on this community clear

No one is forcing you to read these threads or to take a look at who is scum of the forum should a thread ever exist. Yet some how all those against naming who is taking advantage of this community feel like they will be forced to read the thread

Protecting those who use this forum like their personal eBay with a gold membership is plain laughable.

You're right, I have edited accordingly. Other than this one major disagreement, I've greatly enjoyed your posts and contributions here, so in the interest of comity and having found the end of the discussion, I look forward to reading your thoughts in other threads.

 

[shinyedges]

You're right, I have edited accordingly. Other than this one major disagreement, I've greatly enjoyed your posts and contributions here, so in the interest of comity and having found the end of the discussion, I look forward to reading your thoughts in other threads.

I feel strongly about this and can be abrasive, I honestly don't dislike many members here and I don't have anything against you. Hopefully we're not on bad terms

 

[bonky]

I feel strongly about this and can be abrasive, I honestly don't dislike many members here and I don't have anything against you. Hopefully we're not on bad terms

I can see both sides of the argument. As a semi long-term member and supporter of BF, I certainly understand the community aspect.

I also understand the aspect of being able to price items at market value, regardless of the original purchase price .


Personally, I dislike the practice of manufactures releasing limited runs that require website-camping, but I do understand that it's almost required for them to remain for them to stay in business.

Like it or not, it's the world we now live in. I'd rather have the alternate of either camping or overpaying than to see the few remaining great cutlery producers go the way of Camillus and Schrade.

Branding members of our own community is a risky proposition without a clear definition, and ls likely to only benefit profiteers who would likely continue their business with Ebay or another venue if banned here anyway

People who are here only to participate in the Exchange in order to turn a profit are probably people that we can do without.

Thanks for your time and consideration, and I hope you can understand my position that you both are right.

 

[basmca]

Not to get off track but capitalism is not the evil force behind peoples actions. Capitalism is what has made the world as a whole a better place for many many people. Like anything else when it is not respected and the concept is not enacted responsibly then yes bad things can happen just like when a person drives a car or has a gun in their possession. Its not the guns fault or the cars fault its the persons fault.

Never said it was, and i don't think it is.

 

[leghog]

I couldn't disagree more. Intentionally creating or perpetuating a shortage to then capitalize on, is what's happening. A guy who wants a knife to use but has a full time job that doesn't allow him to refresh the page instantly and repetitively at a specific time, so he can score a knife ends up losing out or paying some ridiculous price that he "agrees" to and you see nothing wrong with that?

At the minimum the flipper needs to pony up for a dealer membership. And be forced to abide by the rules that dealers have here.

I don't see how someone who gives a rats ass about this community can look at what's happening and see nothing wrong. Mind boggling.

Limited edition knives are luxury items in a world with gazillions of alternatives. A guy with a job needing a knife to use who can't sit at a computer refreshing a website for a limited edition knife is not harmed if he can't get an object of his desires when immediately available or even ever.

 

[shinyedges]

I can see both sides of the argument. As a semi long-term member and supporter of BF, I certainly understand the community aspect.

I also understand the aspect of being able to price items at market value, regardless of the original purchase price .


Personally, I dislike the practice of manufactures releasing limited runs that require website-camping, but I do understand that it's almost required for them to remain for them to stay in business.

Like it or not, it's the world we now live in. I'd rather have the alternate of either camping or overpaying than to see the few remaining great cutlery producers go the way of Camillus and Schrade.

Branding members of our own community is a risky proposition without a clear definition, and ls likely to only benefit profiteers who would likely continue their business with Ebay or another venue if banned here anyway

People who are here only to participate in the Exchange in order to turn a profit are probably people that we can do without.

Thanks for your time and consideration, and I hope you can understand my position that you both are right.

I understand, thank for sharing your opinion. It's a complex issue, or it would have been addressed a long time ago. I'm not deterred by a tough issue or task though. I value this place and the great folks in it.