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interesting thread
- Thread starter Cobalt
- Start date
- Status
So:
Give me the reality here.
I was sorry that the post was locked - and I sure didn't lock it.
I'm sorry also , that what I heard about the little fan club here was true.
Learn to value what you have and you all won't need to be this way. I don't need to get in an uproar even about my cheap Moras. They work for me and if others don't like them, so what. It seems insecurity reigns here in more ways than I'd thought.
Give me the reality here.
I was sorry that the post was locked - and I sure didn't lock it.
I'm sorry also , that what I heard about the little fan club here was true.
Learn to value what you have and you all won't need to be this way. I don't need to get in an uproar even about my cheap Moras. They work for me and if others don't like them, so what. It seems insecurity reigns here in more ways than I'd thought.
Here's what I posted:
"In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jimbo, what exactly do you mean by that. Doesn't this forum promote insecurity in itself. SURVIVAL? The term itself promotes that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I surely hope that we don't promote insecurity here, of the type that Jerry is trading on! I also hope that we don't get into the "have this tool and you'll be OK" way of thinking.
You'll see lots of knives and other tools shown and discussed here. That's all about love of fine tools. Love your tools and really know them and they'll help to bring you back no matter what. Go out with the latest heavy duty tool that is supposed to save you by being the toughest - and maybe you won't be coming back. Everything hinges on skill with tools, not the tools themselves.
Life is insecure -and none of us are going to live forever. I bet, though, that not many of us woke up this morning with their first thought being on whether they'd croak today. Any who did better get help fast! Some people think that I deliberately make life hazardous for myself. I go out alone, and often do things that have killed a lot of people. I find myself dwelling on the skills that will bring me back, though, not on the hazards. It'd seem that I should stay home where things are safer and help is at hand. My brother tried that after a life of hazardous work: judging by the strokes and cancer, I guess sitting around can lead to problems too.
All too often, survival forums can become breeding grounds for insecurity that wrecks lives. I can just see us now all wearing our aluminum foil hats so that the government or aliens can't work the mind control on us - and looking forward to the end of the world so that we can dig out the bugout bags. Me - I'm too busy playing with nasty chainsaws, digging out the canoe and getting the guns ready for fishing. I have a double whammy in fishing since the bears accumulate on the salmon streams and my grand-daughter attracts bears any time she is out in the bush. As many around here have found out the hard and final way - it's skill that's needed whether guns, axes or anything else is brought into play.
That brings up the "have one of these and you'll be OK" notion. I have friends who went out and got a big gun after some close encounter with a toothy thing. They carried them like a talisman to ward off against evil. That's about the extent of the use of the things too, as they forgot the years of work needed to get good enough with a big guin. Some got into real trouble because they ventured where no sane person should have gone - just because they felt so confident with old "death and destruction" on their shoulder. Along the same lines a couple of well equipped and trained hikers died last year on a local mountain that kids and geriatrics have climbed safely for generations. It's a pity that their gear and training didn't include parachutes, since it led them to keep going when conditions closed in.
It is dangerous out in the bush - and it's dangerous at home too. A person can go and drop leaning trees on trails for years and come back just fine - just as they can have a heart attack or stroke due to not going out and getting some brutal exercise. The idea that some special tool or any other THING will keep a person alive is the stuff of TV commercials. Yep use the new and improved whatever - and the sun will always shine, the kids never fight or argue - and all will end well. I'm sure we all believe that - except for the part about being able to improve something that's new.
So - show me an old Busse knife with all the finsih wore off, and that you love to death - and I'll say that you made a really good choice. Show me a new one that's going to save you and I'll be wondering if you are going out with new boots too. I have nothing for or against the knives - just the philosophy.
For myself - well I have choices - more choices than money, actually. I'll always be willing to spend some cash on knives by people who have come to these forums and shown me a desire to produce something special. There are lots - some show every step in making the knife too with no BS. All you need is a lot of years of dedicated training and incredible innate skill, and you could save all sorts of money by making your own! I'll put in my time on learning the knife and what it will do, though. That takes years, too.
Hopefully, over the years and thousands of posts, I've shown myself to be pretty reasonable. Anybody can go and check. This time, though, I've seen something I really don't like and which I think could lead people into problems.
So: just to be clear:
- Get a knife because you will really use it and take care of it because you love it, and it'll bring you back. I really believe that.
- Get a knife because you're frightened that if you don't have that indestructible kind, you won't make it back - well maybe you won't be coming back. Fear causes problems. I really believe that too."
Basically in response to Jerry's post:
"A great number of the ruffled feathers on Knife Forums Outdoor Survival Forum can be traced back to when Jeff Randall challenged Busse Combats use of the phrase, Undisputed leader in extreme performance knives. After it spilled over onto a couple of other forums, Jeff and I finally spoke on the phone and agreed that the confusion stemmed over the definition of Extreme Performance.
After I explained that by Extreme Performance we are referring to a knifes ability to withstand extreme levels of cutting, chopping, prying, along with excessive levels of abuse that knives are not normally designed for, the conflict was resolved.
We continue to use the phrase, Undisputed leader in extreme performance knives.
As is typical of the internet, feelings were hurt, sides were drawn and now the mere mention of anything positive about a Busse knife on Knife Forums, is met with more negative remarks than any other manufacturer receives over here.
So, in the interest of presenting some facts instead of fiction, I offer some random responses to some of the comments made in this thread so far.
SR-101 is not 0-1. It is a slightly modified form of 52-100 coupled with a heat treating protocol that is far more extensive than ANY other manufacturer is currently using. The Swamp Rat Battle Rat offers remarkable performance and will outperform ANY other manufactured knife (other than a Busse) of similar size and intended use in objective, repeatable, controlled tests that involve chopping, cutting, and lateral stressing.
HYPE? Wanna know what I call hype? Hype is any unsubstantiated claim made by a manufacturer in the pursuit of selling more product. It is not hype when it is proven or it is fact.
A real survival situation dictates that there is a very strong possibility that you will need to use your knife in a non-knife-like manner, including enormous levels of lateral prying, along with a great deal of heavy and possibly panicked chopping and hacking. It is important to note that I am not referring to the execution of survival tactics like shelter building, fire starting, trap building, chisel cutting, etc. . .Almost any knife can perform these functions to varying degrees. Rather I am referring to the situation or episode that leads to a person being caught up in a survival situation ie, small plane crash, cave-in, rock slide, etc. . . It is at these times that a knifes limitations could be tested. It is at these times that a Busse Combat blade will outperform any other knife on the market.
ANY manufacturer who makes a knife that they claim is suitable for Survival situations should be required to publish the performance and/or destructive limitations of their equipment. If they will not tell you specifically what the performance limits of their knives are, you should look elsewhere. Busse Combat is the ONLY manufacturer who performs LIVE testing at major knife shows to substantiate our performance claims.
Feel free to make a phone call to the other makers and manufacturers that have been mentioned in this thread and ask them if they have ever tested their knives to their performance limits. If they say yes then ask what those limits are, have they been published, and then ask if theyre willing to repeat these tests live at a knife show? Then ask them if they are willing to duplicate the limit reaching and destructive tests that have been performed live by Busse Combat at many knife shows.
In the interest of knowledge and in the pursuit of presenting truthful information, I encourage someone on this forum to make these phone calls and publish their findings. I look forward to reading how other makers and manufacturers respond. I think that most of you will be interested in these responses as well.
Busse Combat only tests against the actual maker or manufacturer of a knife. We do not accept testing by customers. We believe that this presents the fairest testing possible.
So, before you decide to believe that there are other knives that perform as well as a Busse, be sure to qualify those statements and define what is being referred to as performance. Nearly any knife can be used for whittling sticks, building a makeshift shelter, slicing tomatoes, etc. . . But very few can be relied on in disaster situations where a blade will be pushed beyond its intended use.
As for the fit and finish comments, Im willing to take a hit on that one. For years, Busse Combat has only concerned itself with performance. If the fit, finish, or other cosmetics of a knife would have affected the performance of the blade we would have addressed these issues earlier.
We have recently (3 weeks ago) announced a line of 15 new models along with an entirely new manufacturing process. Now, each knife will be made to order and will afford the customer the ability to choose from a number of custom options. Fit and finish will be greatly improved.
As for Busses being collectible, yes that is the case. But do not be fooled into thinking that Busse owners rarely use their knives. Nearly every Busse collector started off as a Busse user and remains so to this day. These guys fell in love with the performance of Busse knives (obviously not the fit and finish ) and that is why they began their Busse collections.
Also, we are the first in the industry who have confidential test teams for several of our new models. These test teams are double blind and are formed from forum members who sign up for the name drawing. These teams allow users the ability to give direct feedback and suggestions to us before the design is finalized. The names of the test team members are kept confidential from each other and even from me, in the hopes of receiving objective design feedback. The names are drawn out of a hopper and the selection is random. If you are interested in possibly getting in on one of these test teams, we would enjoy having your feedback. Click here to sign up! http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=263021
Let me conclude by saying that I understand our knives are not for everyone. There are many, many good knives out there and for many people, they will prove to be all that they will ever need. But for those who could find themselves in extreme situations where their survival, or the survival of their team members could likely depend on the performance limitations of their knife, then Busse Combat has proven time and time again to be unmatched in extreme performance.
If anybody has any questions regarding our blades performance or any rumors that theyd like to investigate before posting on the internet, I encourage you to contact me directly at jerry@bussecombat.com or call me at (419) 923-6471 ext. 105.
Jerry Busse
Busse Combat Knife Co."
"In reply to:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jimbo, what exactly do you mean by that. Doesn't this forum promote insecurity in itself. SURVIVAL? The term itself promotes that.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I surely hope that we don't promote insecurity here, of the type that Jerry is trading on! I also hope that we don't get into the "have this tool and you'll be OK" way of thinking.
You'll see lots of knives and other tools shown and discussed here. That's all about love of fine tools. Love your tools and really know them and they'll help to bring you back no matter what. Go out with the latest heavy duty tool that is supposed to save you by being the toughest - and maybe you won't be coming back. Everything hinges on skill with tools, not the tools themselves.
Life is insecure -and none of us are going to live forever. I bet, though, that not many of us woke up this morning with their first thought being on whether they'd croak today. Any who did better get help fast! Some people think that I deliberately make life hazardous for myself. I go out alone, and often do things that have killed a lot of people. I find myself dwelling on the skills that will bring me back, though, not on the hazards. It'd seem that I should stay home where things are safer and help is at hand. My brother tried that after a life of hazardous work: judging by the strokes and cancer, I guess sitting around can lead to problems too.
All too often, survival forums can become breeding grounds for insecurity that wrecks lives. I can just see us now all wearing our aluminum foil hats so that the government or aliens can't work the mind control on us - and looking forward to the end of the world so that we can dig out the bugout bags. Me - I'm too busy playing with nasty chainsaws, digging out the canoe and getting the guns ready for fishing. I have a double whammy in fishing since the bears accumulate on the salmon streams and my grand-daughter attracts bears any time she is out in the bush. As many around here have found out the hard and final way - it's skill that's needed whether guns, axes or anything else is brought into play.
That brings up the "have one of these and you'll be OK" notion. I have friends who went out and got a big gun after some close encounter with a toothy thing. They carried them like a talisman to ward off against evil. That's about the extent of the use of the things too, as they forgot the years of work needed to get good enough with a big guin. Some got into real trouble because they ventured where no sane person should have gone - just because they felt so confident with old "death and destruction" on their shoulder. Along the same lines a couple of well equipped and trained hikers died last year on a local mountain that kids and geriatrics have climbed safely for generations. It's a pity that their gear and training didn't include parachutes, since it led them to keep going when conditions closed in.
It is dangerous out in the bush - and it's dangerous at home too. A person can go and drop leaning trees on trails for years and come back just fine - just as they can have a heart attack or stroke due to not going out and getting some brutal exercise. The idea that some special tool or any other THING will keep a person alive is the stuff of TV commercials. Yep use the new and improved whatever - and the sun will always shine, the kids never fight or argue - and all will end well. I'm sure we all believe that - except for the part about being able to improve something that's new.
So - show me an old Busse knife with all the finsih wore off, and that you love to death - and I'll say that you made a really good choice. Show me a new one that's going to save you and I'll be wondering if you are going out with new boots too. I have nothing for or against the knives - just the philosophy.
For myself - well I have choices - more choices than money, actually. I'll always be willing to spend some cash on knives by people who have come to these forums and shown me a desire to produce something special. There are lots - some show every step in making the knife too with no BS. All you need is a lot of years of dedicated training and incredible innate skill, and you could save all sorts of money by making your own! I'll put in my time on learning the knife and what it will do, though. That takes years, too.
Hopefully, over the years and thousands of posts, I've shown myself to be pretty reasonable. Anybody can go and check. This time, though, I've seen something I really don't like and which I think could lead people into problems.
So: just to be clear:
- Get a knife because you will really use it and take care of it because you love it, and it'll bring you back. I really believe that.
- Get a knife because you're frightened that if you don't have that indestructible kind, you won't make it back - well maybe you won't be coming back. Fear causes problems. I really believe that too."
Basically in response to Jerry's post:
"A great number of the ruffled feathers on Knife Forums Outdoor Survival Forum can be traced back to when Jeff Randall challenged Busse Combats use of the phrase, Undisputed leader in extreme performance knives. After it spilled over onto a couple of other forums, Jeff and I finally spoke on the phone and agreed that the confusion stemmed over the definition of Extreme Performance.
After I explained that by Extreme Performance we are referring to a knifes ability to withstand extreme levels of cutting, chopping, prying, along with excessive levels of abuse that knives are not normally designed for, the conflict was resolved.
We continue to use the phrase, Undisputed leader in extreme performance knives.
As is typical of the internet, feelings were hurt, sides were drawn and now the mere mention of anything positive about a Busse knife on Knife Forums, is met with more negative remarks than any other manufacturer receives over here.
So, in the interest of presenting some facts instead of fiction, I offer some random responses to some of the comments made in this thread so far.
SR-101 is not 0-1. It is a slightly modified form of 52-100 coupled with a heat treating protocol that is far more extensive than ANY other manufacturer is currently using. The Swamp Rat Battle Rat offers remarkable performance and will outperform ANY other manufactured knife (other than a Busse) of similar size and intended use in objective, repeatable, controlled tests that involve chopping, cutting, and lateral stressing.
HYPE? Wanna know what I call hype? Hype is any unsubstantiated claim made by a manufacturer in the pursuit of selling more product. It is not hype when it is proven or it is fact.
A real survival situation dictates that there is a very strong possibility that you will need to use your knife in a non-knife-like manner, including enormous levels of lateral prying, along with a great deal of heavy and possibly panicked chopping and hacking. It is important to note that I am not referring to the execution of survival tactics like shelter building, fire starting, trap building, chisel cutting, etc. . .Almost any knife can perform these functions to varying degrees. Rather I am referring to the situation or episode that leads to a person being caught up in a survival situation ie, small plane crash, cave-in, rock slide, etc. . . It is at these times that a knifes limitations could be tested. It is at these times that a Busse Combat blade will outperform any other knife on the market.
ANY manufacturer who makes a knife that they claim is suitable for Survival situations should be required to publish the performance and/or destructive limitations of their equipment. If they will not tell you specifically what the performance limits of their knives are, you should look elsewhere. Busse Combat is the ONLY manufacturer who performs LIVE testing at major knife shows to substantiate our performance claims.
Feel free to make a phone call to the other makers and manufacturers that have been mentioned in this thread and ask them if they have ever tested their knives to their performance limits. If they say yes then ask what those limits are, have they been published, and then ask if theyre willing to repeat these tests live at a knife show? Then ask them if they are willing to duplicate the limit reaching and destructive tests that have been performed live by Busse Combat at many knife shows.
In the interest of knowledge and in the pursuit of presenting truthful information, I encourage someone on this forum to make these phone calls and publish their findings. I look forward to reading how other makers and manufacturers respond. I think that most of you will be interested in these responses as well.
Busse Combat only tests against the actual maker or manufacturer of a knife. We do not accept testing by customers. We believe that this presents the fairest testing possible.
So, before you decide to believe that there are other knives that perform as well as a Busse, be sure to qualify those statements and define what is being referred to as performance. Nearly any knife can be used for whittling sticks, building a makeshift shelter, slicing tomatoes, etc. . . But very few can be relied on in disaster situations where a blade will be pushed beyond its intended use.
As for the fit and finish comments, Im willing to take a hit on that one. For years, Busse Combat has only concerned itself with performance. If the fit, finish, or other cosmetics of a knife would have affected the performance of the blade we would have addressed these issues earlier.
We have recently (3 weeks ago) announced a line of 15 new models along with an entirely new manufacturing process. Now, each knife will be made to order and will afford the customer the ability to choose from a number of custom options. Fit and finish will be greatly improved.
As for Busses being collectible, yes that is the case. But do not be fooled into thinking that Busse owners rarely use their knives. Nearly every Busse collector started off as a Busse user and remains so to this day. These guys fell in love with the performance of Busse knives (obviously not the fit and finish ) and that is why they began their Busse collections.
Also, we are the first in the industry who have confidential test teams for several of our new models. These test teams are double blind and are formed from forum members who sign up for the name drawing. These teams allow users the ability to give direct feedback and suggestions to us before the design is finalized. The names of the test team members are kept confidential from each other and even from me, in the hopes of receiving objective design feedback. The names are drawn out of a hopper and the selection is random. If you are interested in possibly getting in on one of these test teams, we would enjoy having your feedback. Click here to sign up! http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=263021
Let me conclude by saying that I understand our knives are not for everyone. There are many, many good knives out there and for many people, they will prove to be all that they will ever need. But for those who could find themselves in extreme situations where their survival, or the survival of their team members could likely depend on the performance limitations of their knife, then Busse Combat has proven time and time again to be unmatched in extreme performance.
If anybody has any questions regarding our blades performance or any rumors that theyd like to investigate before posting on the internet, I encourage you to contact me directly at jerry@bussecombat.com or call me at (419) 923-6471 ext. 105.
Jerry Busse
Busse Combat Knife Co."
alphamaniv
BANNED
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2001
- Messages
- 1,734
Edited for spearhead. 
But you have been courteous, and while I'm here - maybe I forgot to thank progunner for his offer to the originator of the post. I've done the same, but it's always good to see someone giving another forum member a chance to see for themselves.
Life has it's bright side!
alphamaniv
BANNED
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2001
- Messages
- 1,734
Well, he(Jerry) did call me one day, and said that I couldn't fight my way out of a wet paper bag, UNLESS I had a VERY expensive custom Busse wet bag cutter outter. Which I bought. It did make me feel much more secure, but I have a message on my machine from him. Seems he needs more money so he has insulted my "manhood", but offered to allow me to compensate with a VERY LARGE knife. I am going to buy it. Security is worth money.
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2000
- Messages
- 14,444
Jimbo, I'm just a little confused here.
I've read and posted for a while on KF, on the OSF a few times, as well as Randall's Survival forum.
Most times the info is pretty objective. Some may take a slant towards a method or product, but not too often with venom involved.
I don't understand the "little fan club" comment.
All knives have people who prefer that knife over all others. So be it. Why does your use of "fan club" have such negative connotations??
Why are USN members, Rinaldi buyers, Topps buyers, CRKT buyers, and any and all others not said to be in a "fan club"??
Some people who hang here made recommendations to AndrewT on your forum, and were immediately set upon. I don't see where that fits into the open discussion philosophy. One person even offered to send his personal knife for evaluation.
Read posts here. See how people are treated when they ask questions.
Yes, we are going to appear to be biased, but we all acknowledge that the final choice is to be made by the person asking the question, not the moderator.
We do not tolerate flaming here, nor do we support or tolerate childish behavior related to responses. I have locked posts before because of the response taking a personal versus and informational turn.
There is no reason for some of the actions on the KF OSF forum. That it was tolerated and not addressed is a sad statement.
Mike
I've read and posted for a while on KF, on the OSF a few times, as well as Randall's Survival forum.
Most times the info is pretty objective. Some may take a slant towards a method or product, but not too often with venom involved.
I don't understand the "little fan club" comment.
All knives have people who prefer that knife over all others. So be it. Why does your use of "fan club" have such negative connotations??
Why are USN members, Rinaldi buyers, Topps buyers, CRKT buyers, and any and all others not said to be in a "fan club"??
Some people who hang here made recommendations to AndrewT on your forum, and were immediately set upon. I don't see where that fits into the open discussion philosophy. One person even offered to send his personal knife for evaluation.
Read posts here. See how people are treated when they ask questions.
Yes, we are going to appear to be biased, but we all acknowledge that the final choice is to be made by the person asking the question, not the moderator.
We do not tolerate flaming here, nor do we support or tolerate childish behavior related to responses. I have locked posts before because of the response taking a personal versus and informational turn.
There is no reason for some of the actions on the KF OSF forum. That it was tolerated and not addressed is a sad statement.
Mike
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2003
- Messages
- 3,196
So, from your lack of an answer to a very direct question, I am going to have to assume that you feel that anyone who believes their product is better than another is creating a need for their product by virtue of scaring others into buying it...? If I'm wrong, feel free to correct me and/or answer the question.
alphamaniv
BANNED
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2001
- Messages
- 1,734
That's true Jimbo. I once heard of a man who built a log cabin with a spork from KFC. Real mean don't even need metal, if they know what they are doing. As for me, maybe I can get Jerry to make a spork. I'm really worried now that I won't have a reliable spork when I need it. Oh..the insecurity is killing me. It's like this place promotes it or something
Jimbo, I'm a little confused as to why you're a moderator. Do you actually have any real life experience giving you the necessary knowledge and skill to promote your ideals ? Or does it all come from reading outdoor books ? Have you any military survival school experience ?
Also, why is it that you use 'insecurity' as your only back-up to this discussion ?
This I hope isn't taken as being 'flaming' you... I'm simply curious.
Also, why is it that you use 'insecurity' as your only back-up to this discussion ?
This I hope isn't taken as being 'flaming' you... I'm simply curious.
Jerry Busse
Moderator
- Joined
- Aug 20, 1999
- Messages
- 12,080
Jimbo,
Welcome to the Busse forum. You say that you didn't enjoy my "little cutdown" ? What are you referring to?
Jerry
Welcome to the Busse forum. You say that you didn't enjoy my "little cutdown" ? What are you referring to?
Jerry
- Status