International Shipping + Paypal Dispute - Laurin

Josh K

Josh K

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Sep 29, 2008
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I was recently forced to sell off one of my Spyderco CPM D2 Military's. Email's were exchanged (see below).

laurin said:
This is a message from laurin at BladeForums.com ( http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/index.php ). The BladeForums.com owners cannot accept any responsibility for the contents of the email.

To email laurin, you can use this online form:
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OR, by email:
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This is the message:

I'll take it if ship to slovakia. Let me know pls., thank you.
Martin
Click to expand...

Josh K said:
2009/9/11
Martin-

Please be aware that you're going to have to pay full shipping costs (I prefer USPS), and tracking is normally unavailable unless you go by registered mail (minimum $15 surcharge).

I cannot be held responsible for lose of package or customs seizing it for whatever reason. I will make every attempt to help you locate your package, but there really isn't much I can do.

That being said, I have never lost a package before, and would be happy to ship it to you.

Add a base $10 for shipping making the total $210, paypal to @gmail.com. If it's less then that I'll refund, if it's significantly more I will let you know.

Thanks,

-Josh
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Accepts these terms and tries to get me to drastically lower the declared value:

laurin said:
Josh,

I'll paypal you $210 couple of minutes later, you can wrote it is sold :)
One more think - I prefer USPS too, but I'd like to ask you for another thing I use to ask US sellers - declare with lower value ($50) as "cutlery" - it is less tempting for possible robbers or customs. It works.
Is it OK with you?
Thanks,
Martin
Click to expand...

Josh K said:
2009/9/11

Martin-

I normally mark everything as "Cutlery" or "Tools" when shipping overseas. I'll meet you halfway and put the declared value as $100. $50 is low, and $200 is a bit high.

I'll ship it tomorrow (really today) when I get the paypal.

Thanks,

-Josh
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Sends the money:
laurin said:
Josh,

do you have money? For clarification - I've sent them from may another PP email trnavatel@gmail.com

Here is my shipping address (for sure):
Martin Pavlovic
Tehelna 9/a
91701 Trnava
Slovakia

Thanks,
Martin
Click to expand...

And now asks for a tracking number.

laurin said:
Josh,

it is OK, hope you slept well :)
Provide me with tracking number, when you'll ship, pls.
Thanks, I let you know when knife arrive.
Martin
Click to expand...

Josh K said:
2009/9/15
Martin-

Shipped today, but remember I said they cannot provide me with a tracking number for out of country shipping.

Thanks,

-Josh
Click to expand...


After saying he hadn't gotten the knife and was worried:

laurin said:
Hi Josh,

I'm starting be afraid about delivery of my D2 military. Could you pls. provide me with custom number, it is not tracking probably, but it is visible through USPS tracking system that it was shipped. I'd like to contact USPS support to check where the package is.

Here is example of one of my flat rate shipment http://trkcnfrm1.smi.usps.com/PTSInternetWeb/InterLabelInquiry.do?origTrackNum=LJ634683702US

It was delivered about 10 days ago. Or if I ask you to check your shipment on post office.
Thank you,
Martin
Click to expand...

After explaining that I did not having a tracking number, he proceeds to open a paypal dispute, and then escalates it to a claim.

I have a feeling I'm going to be out both the knife and the $200 it's taking out of my paypal account. I ship internationally with a specific policy. I cannot guarantee it will get there unless you pay for tracking. This was explained and accepted by him.
 
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Another nail in the coffin of international deals.
It doesn't take many to ruin it for everyone.
 
That is some terrible news :grumpy: Even paypal will rip open a can on you for:

1. shipping to an alternate address not used on the account that sent you the funds.
2. not using some sort of signature delivery and/or tracking to make up for shipping to an alternate address for seller protection.
3. paypal does this once in a blue moon and it's ALWAYS at the worst possible time.

I hope things clear up. Good luck, J.
 
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Josh forgot to mention he had not receipt from post office that he shipped. So in this point of view it is his word against my one.
I had couple of great deals with guys here on BF. Everyone has receipt. Everytime knife was delivered.
 
laurin said:
Josh forgot to mention he had not receipt from post office that he shipped. So in this point of view it is his word against my one.
I had couple of great deals with guys here on BF. Everyone has receipt. Every time knife was delivered.
Click to expand...

Did not forget to mention, got tired of mentioning. I'm at work and taking time out of my day to deal with this. If you'd like I'll just post the entire email thread, or you can.

No, I don't have a receipt from the post office. What would that prove? I have asked you that already. You offered http://trkcnfrm1.smi.usps.com/PTSInternetWeb/InterLabelInquiry.do?origTrackNum=LJ634683702US as an example. What information is there exactly?
 
laurin said:
Josh forgot to mention he had not receipt from post office that he shipped. So in this point of view it is his word against my one.
I had couple of great deals with guys here on BF. Everyone has receipt. Everytime knife was delivered.
Click to expand...


I think the receipt would show the number on the associated customs slip that he was asking for.

Also why he showed you that link, because he figured he could locate the package using that number.
 
Josh K - he probably wanted you to provide the label number (http://www.usps.com/shipping/question_pop.htm) of the package. USPS provides it for every package.

My opinion is, if you both agreed onto (or Laurin requested) uninsured service (this is not clear to me from what you posted, you only mention USPS, but not if it was 1st Class International, Priority Mail International or Global Express) then it is clearly Laurin that should take the loss.

If you one-sidedly decided on the uninsured shipping, without other side's approval, then, however it is your fault and the dispute is legitimate.
 
Wow, it's almost been a month, I suppose I would be worried as well :o Reading the emails again, it seems that it was implied that tracking would be included with the price of registered mail around $15. So when the amount of $10 was added for shipping and laurin agreed to whatever shipping price, it seems that it was assumed that tracking was in the stated price. Not trying to start nothing, just my observation and how it may have been viewed.
 
huugh said:
Josh K - he probably wanted you to provide the label number (http://www.usps.com/shipping/question_pop.htm) of the package. USPS provides it for every package.

My opinion is, if you both agreed onto (or Laurin requested) uninsured service (this is not clear to me from what you posted, you only mention USPS, but not if it was 1st Class International, Priority Mail International or Global Express) then it is clearly Laurin that should take the loss.

If you one-sidedly decided on the uninsured shipping, without other side's approval, then, however it is your fault and the dispute is legitimate.
Click to expand...

I said "This is how I ship things internationally." He said "Okay, I'm sending you money." That's agreement.

I don't know what the label number is, but it appears I'm going to have to keep all my receipts from shipping packages.
 
There was a customs declarationn 9nvolved in this. The PO may be able to run that down through customs. I had a slow delivery on a package to Europe that came back to customs. That number, IIRC, is trackable through USPS internal system.

Gene
 
Josh K said:
... but it appears I'm going to have to keep all my receipts from shipping packages.
Click to expand...

Are you kidding me? :)

You keep everything relating to any transaction until you hear from the other side that they are happy with the deal.

I keep a text file of all that information to make it easy to retrieve, starting with the URL of the deal's thread, and the receipts stay on my desk till the package arrives.
 
Esav Benyamin said:
Are you kidding me? :)

You keep everything relating to any transaction until you hear from the other side that they are happy with the deal.

I keep a text file of all that information to make it easy to retrieve, starting with the URL of the deal's thread, and the receipts stay on my desk till the package arrives.
Click to expand...

These are the same words I've told to Josh, I have receipts from packages yet delivered, which I use to throw away maybe every half a year. I'm sorry about this situation indeed.
 
which I use to throw away maybe every half a year.
Click to expand...
+1. I save all the documentation for a while- I clean out my “Sale” folder maybe 2 or 3 times a year.


Not to judge any ones credibility but the simple stated facts are- Without even a simple receipt from the Post Office there's no proof anything was shipped any where.

Did you pay for the shipping with cash or a debit card / credit card? If with a Debit or Credit card there should be at least a payment on the date to the Post Office.

PayPal should have No Choice but to honor the claim since there’s no proof of shipping.


Mitch
 
Josh stated his rules, he should not have to pay for it. Close your paypal account or remove your bank number quick, this is BS.
 
Josh K said:
I said "This is how I ship things internationally." He said "Okay, I'm sending you money." That's agreement.

I don't know what the label number is, but it appears I'm going to have to keep all my receipts from shipping packages.
Click to expand...

Call me dumb, but from that I still don't know what kind of service did you use and whether it was insured or not.
 
From what I'm gathering from reading this, Josh stated how he ships. He basically told laurin that's how he does it & laurin agrees, but asks for some type of tracking #. Josh doesn't understand what it is that laurin wants, however, had Josh kept the receipt (Which he apparently never does), he can't give laurin anymore info.

A couple observations:

1. Josh stated how he did it & that he wasn't responsible for a missing package & lauren agreed. However, even if there's an agreement, Paypal does not agree with that. They basically believe if the buyer got the $ to you, then it's the sellers' responsibility to get the item to the buyer.

2. Record keeping of transactions. It's always a good idea.

FWIW, I keep a book of all of my transactions, including their screen name (Recently), mailing info, item(s) & what I got for it (Purchase &/or $) & how much $ I had in the transaction. I then keep a separate log of my knives & how much $ I have into them. Included in all of this, is keep both the DC tracking form, Ins. form (If that was used), & the receipt I got from the PO.

Anal, I know, but by doing that, I know what went where, if it got there &/or how to find out about it.

I've had a policy of selling/trading US-50 only. I actually went against this 1 time recently & have to say it went well. However, it was a trade & the other party (From Czech Republic) sent his 1st.

This is unfortunate & not as clear cut as it may seem. I'm sorry to say, Josh, if you don't have a receipt (That would show where the package was going), then what proof do you really have that you sent the knife? I'm not saying you didn't, but what proof do you have that you did? You know laurin sent you $, even if it was in an odd way (From a different account), but you did have the $ in your account.

I'm guessing this is why some people only use Paypal, because they can get their $ back W/O any issues. That might be fine, but with over 100 "known" transactions here on BFs (Just i-trader, many more before that), I still don't use Paypal & don't care to. I've only had one knife not make it to its party (The box showed up, but it was empty), so I sent the $35 back (Was too low to insure, IMHO).

Anyways, I truly hope this works out & maybe it'll show up (Who knows, you mean USPS is the ONLY snail mail around?). But it does seem that things could've been done a little differently.
 
Even if the knife does arrive, Josh will have no way to prove it as the overseas DC# don`t work the way they do here in the US. It will never show that it was delivered. So, paypal will return the money to the buyer, end of story.

One reason I quit shipping overseas. Any overseas buyer can file a dispute/then claim and get their money back when ever they want, EVEN if they have the knife or any other item in hand.

Paypal is really set up to help overseas theives. Not saying Laurin is. Its just that paypal really needs to start sticking up for their sellers, since they are the ones who keep them in business.

Here, I recently had an overseas buyer as to use paypal for my SMF. I declined and requested a money order. The buyer acted like he didn`t know what a US money order was and said paypal only. I declined, you know why now.
 
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