International Shipping + Paypal Dispute - Laurin

[tendy]

Instead of immediatly saying US shipping only, or "Thats why I never ship international" why not ask for references or simply look at the members feedback here on BF. This situation seems more applicable to communication breakdown, than geographic location. It does not sound like either member involved is trying to scam anyone, and perhaps an amiacable solution can happen. Lets not make this about where a member lives and more about communication, meeting people half way, and figuiring out a better way to do such transactions. Just MHO

 

[knifeswapper]

I had the same thing happen a couple years ago and it broke me from international sales until the recent USPS "Insured Express" started (which is actually handled by FedEx or UPS.

We had a "no international" sales policy due to this kind of craziness. He talked me into it and promised, in an email, that he would be responsible for any loss / damage. When it didn't show, he filed a paypal claim just as fast as he could. They told me no confirmation of delivery is the same as never mailing it. They could not care less about his release of liability. Also, nobody cared that I had the receipt showing shipment.

I don't blame the guy for not wanting to be out the money; but to completely disregard an agreement is inexcusable.

Now that I can insure them I have started shipping internationally again; although at a rather high cost.

 

[Josh K]

Josh stated his rules, he should not have to pay for it. Close your paypal account or remove your bank number quick, this is BS.

The dispute has already been escalated and the account has a -$200 balance.

Call me dumb, but from that I still don't know what kind of service did you use and whether it was insured or not.

I'd rather not call anyone dump. I use USPS Flat Rate boxes for 99% of my shipping. If it goes international, I ask is there anything I can put on it besides shipping. They don't allow Insurance, or a DC#. Nothing. I have asked multiple times. Now letters may be different, maybe dedicated International shippments might be different.

From what I'm gathering from reading this, Josh stated how he ships. He basically told laurin that's how he does it & laurin agrees, but asks for some type of tracking #.

I explained that unless he paid for registered mail, there wouldn't be any proof of delivery or tracking. He agrees, pays, and then comes back later for a tracking number.

 

[Josh K]

I'd also like to provide this, where he asks that this stay off BF because "it's just between us."

10/8/2009 06:58 PDT - PayPal: Buyer escalated this dispute to a Claim.

10/8/2009 06:58 PDT - Buyer: Seller doesn't have any proof of shipping of item I have bought from him. Per our email communication, he first wrote me he shipped on 11th of September, after my another email he wrote he shipped on15th of September. He is not able to prove item was shipped to me, doesn't have receipt from post office.

10/8/2009 06:13 PDT - Seller: Martin- How would the receipt prove shipping? As I said, it only proves that an item was mailed to *someone* *somewhere* on a date. That's all. No tracking, no proof of shipping to somewhere, nothing. I'm not in a position to offer you a refund at this point. Currently you have put me at -$200 in my paypal account. As I mentioned in the sale thread, I was selling it to buy equipment, not just to line my pockets. Thanks, -Josh

10/8/2009 06:00 PDT - Buyer: Josh, I've sent you this mail 3 days ago: "martin adresátom JKehn zobraziť podrobnosti 5. okt (Pred 3 dňami) Josh, are you willing to make me refund? It is sure that if knives will arive later (from whatever reason) I'll send you money back. It is sad situation, which never happened to me, I'm sorry. Let me know. Martin" Why open thread on BF? It is between two of us. You said "I view international shipping as an extreme form of gambling" - it seems to me very excessive. I've bought more than hundred knives and other items from USA with no problem. EVERY person whom I bought has receipt from post office as prove of shipping, so do I, when I sell to somebody and if there is a problem with shipment I everytime use to contact post office first to investigate more about shipment. I'm sorry, I've asked you if you willing to make a refund, let me know. Best, Martin.

10/8/2009 05:37 PDT - Seller: Martin- First off I did not get any email. Another acceptable method would be to contact me through BF, or open a thread. Jumping straight to a paypal dispute is premature in my opinion. I the original email I sent saying that I cannot be held responsible for how things are shipped internationally. Those were my terms, and you accepted. I view international shipping as an extreme form of gambling, except I cannot win anything. If you did not suspect that this (missing item) could even remotely be a possibility then you should not have accepted. I'm sorry, but there is nothing I can do more on my end. You contacted me eleven days after I shipped the item. I have already said there is nothing on the receipt that could possibly be of use to track it. Thanks, -Josh

10/8/2009 04:31 PDT - Buyer: Josh, I have to use this method to communicate with you - I've sent you emails 3 days ago with no response. I still don't have military D2 I've purchased soon month ago. You have just told me you have no receipt about item you shipped and post office can nothing to do. It is unacceptable for me, I know you have just positive feedbacks, but so do I. Let me know, pls. Martin

 

[Josh K]

.....

 

[markksr]

Sounds a lot like the Bladegoblin thread to me...

 

[Josh K]

Sounds a lot like the Bladegoblin thread to me...

I explained how I handle international shipping. He wasn't forced to deal with me.

It doesn't matter anyways. I'll contact paypal, but in the end I'm sure he will get $210 refunded and I'll be out of both a knife and the money.

 

[alex]

Your first post states that he must agree to pay for full shipping costs, you mention registered mail, and then you tell him it would be $25 for the shipping which he agreed to. It was then your decision as to what you chose to spend for shipping as well as the method. It looks like you made a mistake in choosing flat rate and not registering it or using Express mail instead.

When doing international transactions I have only used express mail regardless of what the buyer preferred. If they didn't want to pay for it then I would not have gone through with the deal.

As a neutral observer since you cannot provide any proof of mailing and chose the shipping method I would have to side with Laurin on this one. Sometimes it just doesn't pay to try to save a few dollars on shipping and throwing the receipt away before the transaction was concluded was not smart.

 

[CarpScot]

I read your e-mail as saying you would be sending the package registered mail for $210. There is no reason for not keeping a reciept.

 

[wolfmann601]

Used to be a simple thing to believe all folks were honest. Josh made it clear that if it did not arrive tough shiit.
And make no mistake, Josh is 100% honest and a man of integrity. There is no doubt in my mind the knife was shipped just as Josh stated.

Too bad he will now lose a knife and $210 and that's why CONUS is the ONLY way.

Maybe Laurin will step up and realize that he agreed to Josh's shipping terms and at least should split the loss................

 

[Josh K]

Your first post states that he must agree to pay for full shipping costs, you mention registered mail, and then you tell him it would be $25 for the shipping which he agreed to. It was then your decision as to what you chose to spend for shipping as well as the method. It looks like you made a mistake in choosing flat rate and not registering it or using Express mail instead.

When doing international transactions I have only used express mail regardless of what the buyer preferred. If they didn't want to pay for it then I would not have gone through with the deal.

As a neutral observer since you cannot provide any proof of mailing and chose the shipping method I would have to side with Laurin on this one. Sometimes it just doesn't pay to try to save a few dollars on shipping and throwing the receipt away before the transaction was concluded was not smart.

I said registered would be a minimum of $15 surcharge.

I read your e-mail as saying you would be sending the package registered mail for $210. There is no reason for not keeping a receipt.

No, there isn't. I guess my laid back attitude to keeping records of shipping has finally bitten me pretty good.

 

[wolfmann601]

No, there isn't. I guess my laid back attitude to keeping records of shipping has finally bitten me pretty good.

yes sir, so very true BUT the "it is my word" line is 100% in your favor.

My opinion of you is that you are completely credible and honest and that you are a man of integrity and as soon as that went to "your word against mine" I knew whose words I believe the most.

In the future should you join the minority and sell worldwide you really should require sworn statements, notarized reciepts, Jpeg's, scans and copies of each and every document and do a bill of sale that makes the Magna Carta look like a short story!!!

A very expensive lesson, almost as expensive as my one stupid sale outside Canada and the USA.

One quick question; has anyone bothered to check with customs?

 

[alex]

I would not question Josh's integrity. I do think he used poor judgment in not charging the additional $15 for registered or express mail. If he had he could easily win the battle both with Paypal and the buyer.

Let's hope that the knife is stuck in customs and if it is finally delivered that your buyer has the integrity to return your money.

 

[sheathmaker]

but it appears I'm going to have to keep all my receipts from shipping packages.

Well. DUH!!!!! Yes that would be a really good idea.

Based on what I've read in this thread, I think the Pay Pal dispute is justified. It matters little how you say you will ship internationally (this way take it or leave it) You still have at the very minimum, and obligation to at least prove by receipt that you even shipped the package.

Paul

 

[laurin]

I'm just wanted proof of shipping, tracking number, or "customs" number entered on every kind of shipping method (first class mail too). It is possible to ask post office, and customs, for investigate about shipment according this number.

 

[T.A.DAVISON]

Please be aware that you're going to have to pay full shipping costs (I prefer USPS), and tracking is normally unavailable unless you go by registered mail (minimum $15 surcharge).

I cannot be held responsible for lose of package or customs seizing it for whatever reason. I will make every attempt to help you locate your package, but there really isn't much I can do.

That being said, I have never lost a package before, and would be happy to ship it to you.

This is a messed up deal from both sides.
And I think you both should eat half, refund $105.00 and call it even.

And than both learn and move on......

Just my opinion.

TA

I do hope the knife shows up for you cause I think you are both being straight up here.
Just a bad understanding on both parts.



.

 

[hansli]

Laurin paid for a knife he did not receive, and the seller cannot prove he sent. Laurin wants his money back. In the future send by Express Mail International, full tracking from receipt through customs to delivery. Tracking is accessible by both buyer and seller, no disputes. Laid back is for other things than international deals involving money, sorry.

 

[richard j]

i shipped a few knives to japan earlier this year and i couldnt put any kind of tracking on the package. i was worried that someone would steal the package but luckily it made it through. i have shipped knives many times before overseas without any problems and without any insurance or tracking. i only had 1 package sent overseas get lost but it was only a cd of no value so i wasnt out anything but the shipping cost. i would suggest that lauren needs to be patient and maybe see if the knife was possibly seized by customs on his end.

 

[benyaM95 Ranger Knif]

If postal worker tells you that international parcels don't have tracking - he/she is wrong.
There is always a way to track it and it DOES NOT cost extra. Just take a look at USPS website under "calculate international shipping rate" - it funny, but it seems that folks outside of USA know more about USPS shipping options that most USPS workers

 

[Praxis]

If postal worker tells you that international parcels don't have tracking - he/she is wrong.
There is always a way to track it and it DOES NOT cost extra. Just take a look at USPS website under "calculate international shipping rate" - it funny, but it seems that folks outside of USA know more about USPS shipping options that most USPS workers

Completely agree! The customs number from the declaration is trackable, just not from the website. The only time I had an international package go missing, USPS and Russian PO used the customs number to determine that the package has never been delivered. Since I had insurance, I was able to get the money back and refund the buyer. Worked out for both of us, just took 6 months or so.

ALWAYS keep your receipts and buy insurance. For most items 200 and under, insurance is only a dollar or two. I just shredded a file of receipts and tracking/customs forms from the past two years. Always keep them until you are 100% sure the item was delivered. Make the buyer send you an email confirming if you are paranoid about these things.