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Is Dull, Drab, Ugly and Agressive the New Measure of Beauty?
- Thread starter Rick
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You certainly have an odd way of rebutting perfectly valid counterpoints to your argument. Feel free to explain my misinterpretation of your statements. Maybe you don't like the connotation of whining as it references your complaints about the knives that don't appeal to you, but you're going to have a difficult time justifying your nonsensical premise and self-contradictory statements in a manner other than that which I have already outlined. You may not like it laid so bare before you, but these are the things you have said.
Yet you continue to do the same thing on this very page. Am I then to interpret your apology as being dishonest? Disingenuous? Maybe it is a mockery in and of itself? What are you going to do? Apologize again and then continue right along in the same vein?
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Way to go! We wouldn't want to make any baseless assumptions now would we?
I generally do not feel threatened by inanimate objects. Do you?
Spoons are ugly and threatening! 
Look what they did to rosie odonnel! 
why would people use buy spoons!
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Give him a break. Its hard to formulate this question as it is, and especially if you admit that you are under the same influence of tactical that tactical this.
What you guys are doing is picking at words, and he isn't trying to argue with you guys (at least not until he says that all your offensive knifes will lead to all EDC knives being banned) he is trying to figure this stuff out for himself for now.
The only arguable point here is weather the resent trend in knife making has shifted toward military/special forces/offensive/tactical direction. That is his only solid assumption.
What you guys are doing is picking at words, and he isn't trying to argue with you guys (at least not until he says that all your offensive knifes will lead to all EDC knives being banned) he is trying to figure this stuff out for himself for now.
The only arguable point here is weather the resent trend in knife making has shifted toward military/special forces/offensive/tactical direction. That is his only solid assumption.
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All points are more then valid. And those were the reasons I almost bought a Strider. But also you didn't buy Strider because it said "Our only competition is death." As you said you bought something that would get the job done, without you having to think twice about it. Now I believe that Rick's problem is with somebody who buys a knife because of that quote. Or because it's great for killing. Hell a screwdriver or an icepick is great for killing, that gun is great for killing, the reason knife remains part of military gear all over the world to this day is because its a tool with many uses. He did say that his problem is not with strider knifes, but with their add campaign I guess.
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Although if you read some of his other posts , in other threads , it gives one a different impression.
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7664868&postcount=14
Which if it is the case that he has a gripe against Strider , that is fine , I am not afraid to admit I don't like Cold Steel and will never own any of their products.
Either way , I respect his opinion.
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What he said!!
As he already said he choose his original chose of words poorly. I am genuinely interested in the question he posed as well. From a marketers perspective I truly would like to understand the trend. I do have to wonder what percentage of knife purchases are made by BF members. I bet we here only represent a very small percentage of purchases of production blades.
It's sad, this could be a pretty interesting discussion if it hadn't been blasted into a defensive post. I don't think the point was to explain why one is better than the other, but to explain wht DRAWS one to the more aggressive style. As I previously stated it IS hard not to become defensive about ones preferences but try and set aside feelings and understand WHY YOU choose that aggressive style over a more traditional style. A few people here have posted just that, but most are just becoming defensive. As the OP has said he's bought into this trend as well!
Is it just a cyclic thing? An insecure world? Who fuels the trend the buyers or the marketers?? A good marketing campaign can convince a large demographic that polished turd is more than a turd!
Just look at the world around us! I listed a few other things that have a mean attitude such as phone! Some bikes have absurdly aggressive names, cars, toys, video games.... Heck look at movie these days!! Horror movies have become gore fests instead of scare fests!! Many things in or day to day world has taken a more bold facade.
Has the OP used some poor choices of words? Sure! Admittedly so! Try to look past that and understand the real point of the thread. Heck, even if he has a hidden meaning (which I'm not saying he does!!!) behind his question I'd like to understand the trend.... I'm sure others would like to understand it as well. The people here on BF seem to generally be a good group of people so c'mon lets have a friendly discussion!
"Can't we all just get along?"
*please excuse any spelling/grammer errors, I'm running on 2 hours of sleep in the past 48hrs.....
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That is not something you are going to see explained on a knife forum to the point where people say " Oh , wow , so that is the reason for the trend ".
Why ?
a. It would subjective , and still be an opinion. It might be an educated or research based hypothesis , but still opinionated.
b. The time it would take to gather the data to formulate an answer would be very long.
The closest I have found that gives you an idea of how the trend began ( granted I haven't put a ton of time into researching the answer ) , is to listen to the audio of " Bulletproof mind " by Lt Col Dave Grossman , that will give you plenty of thought provoking info .
My personal view on why the trend , is to get a head in society it dam near mandates both parents work , which leaves children often tending to themselves. They turn to tv , internet , video games , etc to occupy their time , which in itself is not the problem , it is that parents don't take the time to explain what they are seeing and doing isnt real (video games).
In the audio he discusses exactly that , I sat down with the wife and all three sons and we listened to parts of audio that I felt they could understand. A very nice conversation was had after listening to the audio.
I doubt you will see "tacticals" going away , take a look at the AR15 accessory market for an idea of how much call there is for what is called "tactical".
I have noticed a resurgence of the traditional stuff , as more folks try to add some of the "simpler" things back into their lives.
Sometimes buyers drive the market , sometimes market drives the buyers ( Apple for instance , has said " We tell buyers what they want " , and then they pitch the i-Pad..rofl ! ).
The beginning of the trend line goes way back , not sure we could find it with a map at this point.
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This thread nothing but be a topic that is so widely discussed on these forums its tiring. Now I'm only a new guy but jeeze I've seen this form of thing discussed quite frequantly why? Why is there always a debate on whether knives are good for defense of not this is general knife discussion not prac tac. Now I'm no innocent party I have taken place as well but jeeze isn't once enough. 
all right, now if Rick had started this topic like you have with your ^ post here, perhaps people would have responded better. I like your questions, and will attempt to answer them. Rick's posts (no offence Rick) seemed like "trawling" to me.
first, starting with this one: " From a marketers perspective I truly would like to understand the trend"
people love military things. Look at tv shows about tanks, blowing stuff up, weapons, and actual live shows where people can walk thru a field of army equipment.....people love that stuff. Now incorporate that military styling & toughness into a knife and people will buy it. Add in tigerstripe/digicam/cadpat/marpat/OD/black coatings and a skull logo and people eat that stuff up.
people see thing military and think "tough". There is no denying that military equipment is built better than civvie equipment. Take tanks and trucks...bare bones interiors, armour plates, heavy duty components, earth tones etc etc etc. Make a knife that is simple slabs of thick steel or ti (theres your armor), add in a heavy duty 1/2" pivot, big allen bolts to bolt it all together (theres your heavy duty components), do some machining on the scales and add some bead blast or duracoatings (theres your military styling/colors) and you have a big beefy military styled blade that can take tons of abuse.
whats not to like?
i for one LOVE metal. I like working with it, i like machining it, i like the industrial/military look in all my gear, be it clothes, trucks, knives, guns, hiking gear etc. I find a knife that has thick steel slabs with heavy duty bolts and maching//filing, and machining marks left on it to be MUCH MORE ATTRACTIVE than a knife with polished brass or bone scales, and thin blades. Factor in that i use my knives hard (no i dont kill with them) in the woods, a thin blade fancy scaled knife simply does not last in my mitts. Hence my love for beefy industrial/military designed knives that look like big ol slabs of tank steel armour. Marketing has nothing to do with it. I look at the design first, and if it appeals to my industrial art/military liking, and if it looks like it will suit my needs (heavy duty use) , i buy it.
In the marketing world, success breeds imitation. In the heavy duty user world, Strider is up at or near the top o' the heap, therefore a lot of companies will make the cheap knockoffs.
THOSE knives are what (I'm guessing) draws the ire of the OP not the original.
Most uninformed buyers can't see the difference, they only see the Tiger Stripes and think they're getting the same thing.
Is today any different from the days when a lot of towns had "Military Surplus" equipment? Maybe the difference was 30 years ago it might actually have been mil surplus. These days it's all probably stuff imported from China.
THOSE knives are what (I'm guessing) draws the ire of the OP not the original.
Most uninformed buyers can't see the difference, they only see the Tiger Stripes and think they're getting the same thing.
Is today any different from the days when a lot of towns had "Military Surplus" equipment? Maybe the difference was 30 years ago it might actually have been mil surplus. These days it's all probably stuff imported from China.
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I think the OP is also wondering what draws so many people to the original.
Another poster here said he doesn't like knives that look like jewelry. I concur. It doesn't preclude me from buying beautiful knives like the Fallkniven shown earlier, but if I were to buy a Sebenza, it would be as plain as possible. I guess for me, knives are utilitarian above all, and a decorative knife is a contradiction in terms to me. They become better looking as they look more functional and used.
I would ask the OP what on earth draws people to knives that would be a crying shame to use, except I already understand what the attraction is.
I just don't share it. But I get it, and certainly wouldn't sit in judgement of it.
So to each his own, is my motto. And thank whoever creates knifemakers that it does indeed take all sorts. :thumbup:
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If we all liked the same things the world would be a very boring place. I'm not a big tactical fan, but there are some tactical knives I'd like to own. My only problem with tactical hardware (knives, guns, etc) are the zealots who will insult me, my gun or my knife because it ISN'T tactical in nature. That is thankfully a limited crowd.
When I think of the appeal of tactical knives and guns I think of a few groups. There is the rebellious type specifically going against those that point at that and say, 'evil! you shouldn't own that!", that group has average people that are just inwardly rebelling in a peaceful manner as well as a small fringe that actually harm the overall image of owners. There are also those that simply enjoy the practical nature of the blades, a raw utilitarian need and an appreciation for both the look and function they provide. I tend to think the majority are a combination, leaning in one direction or another of the rebellious and practical (with the fringe being the fringe).
I can also respect the work of something that I wouldn't personally own. I've never had the needs that some others have had of their knives and a more 'delicate' folder is fine for my purposes. But I'm not going to insult those who want or need more. I've taken my fair shots at a few 'tacticool' people in the past, but that was against the individuals, not against people that simply enjoy something different than me. Anyone that has issues with another person just because of the knives they like or guns they own has serious issues. There are wonderful people making, collecting and using every type of knife out there. The only type of knife person we should discourage is the type that discourages others.
-MJ
When I think of the appeal of tactical knives and guns I think of a few groups. There is the rebellious type specifically going against those that point at that and say, 'evil! you shouldn't own that!", that group has average people that are just inwardly rebelling in a peaceful manner as well as a small fringe that actually harm the overall image of owners. There are also those that simply enjoy the practical nature of the blades, a raw utilitarian need and an appreciation for both the look and function they provide. I tend to think the majority are a combination, leaning in one direction or another of the rebellious and practical (with the fringe being the fringe).
I can also respect the work of something that I wouldn't personally own. I've never had the needs that some others have had of their knives and a more 'delicate' folder is fine for my purposes. But I'm not going to insult those who want or need more. I've taken my fair shots at a few 'tacticool' people in the past, but that was against the individuals, not against people that simply enjoy something different than me. Anyone that has issues with another person just because of the knives they like or guns they own has serious issues. There are wonderful people making, collecting and using every type of knife out there. The only type of knife person we should discourage is the type that discourages others.
-MJ
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I've been trying to digest all the info here, and I think I'm beginning to understand the appeal, even if I (obviously :foot
don't share it. I've never thought of a knife as an axe, chisel, prybar, shovel, sledgehammer, or nuclear deterrent. For me, EDC knives need to cut well, and I need a fine point almost as much as a sharp edge for my day-to-day tasks. I've found that thin blades tend to cut better than thick ones, all things being equal, but YMMV. My knives need to take and hold a fine edge, be well-crafted from high-quality materials, fit my hand and pocket comfortably and, yes, look aesthetically pleasing and nonthreatening enough that they won't stampede the herd if I need to use them around others.
I was taught to "take care of your tools and they'll take care of you," so the idea of beating a knife is foreign to me. However, it seems that a lot of people want, and even need, to have a more or less edged tool that can be pounded through a log (or a wall) and still perform rough cutting tasks.
That still doesn't explain the utility of intensionally ugly "urban camo" finishes or the overhyped marketing slogans, but I can see how a fine finish might not appeal to someone who plans on abusing their tools, even if the plan is only a 'what if' scenario; what if the sh!t hits the fan; what if the dead walk the earth craving human flesh, etc.
I'm even willing to take on good faith the idea that an exaggerated chisel-ground recurve tanto hawkbill with black and gray tiger stripes and a $300 silver skull bead really arose from a genuine utilitarian requirement. Yes - I'm, once again, singling out the Strider brand in that last comment due to their huge popularity as fashion trend setters, but the market is rife with that trend.
So, sarcasm aside, I sort of 'get' the underlying concept of a relatively indestructible roughly-finished brute-force pocketknife. It may be a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none, but if you have to travel light in a potentially hostile environment and can't carry an assortment of tools, maybe these metal bricks with an edge are the next best thing in a pinch.
don't share it. I've never thought of a knife as an axe, chisel, prybar, shovel, sledgehammer, or nuclear deterrent. For me, EDC knives need to cut well, and I need a fine point almost as much as a sharp edge for my day-to-day tasks. I've found that thin blades tend to cut better than thick ones, all things being equal, but YMMV. My knives need to take and hold a fine edge, be well-crafted from high-quality materials, fit my hand and pocket comfortably and, yes, look aesthetically pleasing and nonthreatening enough that they won't stampede the herd if I need to use them around others.I was taught to "take care of your tools and they'll take care of you," so the idea of beating a knife is foreign to me. However, it seems that a lot of people want, and even need, to have a more or less edged tool that can be pounded through a log (or a wall) and still perform rough cutting tasks.
That still doesn't explain the utility of intensionally ugly "urban camo" finishes or the overhyped marketing slogans, but I can see how a fine finish might not appeal to someone who plans on abusing their tools, even if the plan is only a 'what if' scenario; what if the sh!t hits the fan; what if the dead walk the earth craving human flesh, etc.
I'm even willing to take on good faith the idea that an exaggerated chisel-ground recurve tanto hawkbill with black and gray tiger stripes and a $300 silver skull bead really arose from a genuine utilitarian requirement
. Yes - I'm, once again, singling out the Strider brand in that last comment due to their huge popularity as fashion trend setters, but the market is rife with that trend.So, sarcasm aside, I sort of 'get' the underlying concept of a relatively indestructible roughly-finished brute-force pocketknife. It may be a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none, but if you have to travel light in a potentially hostile environment and can't carry an assortment of tools, maybe these metal bricks with an edge are the next best thing in a pinch.
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I've been trying to digest all the info here, and I think I'm beginning to understand the appeal, even if I (obviously :foot
You may not admit it , but you do share it Rick , you just might not share it in the same exact light (ie: your MICROTECHs).
Explain the utility of the purple microtech , what makes that color more utility than a black or camo one ? Or what makes damascus better suited for utility that a "urban camo" finished blade ?
If the goal is to only have what is needed , why bother with damascus ? Which is a " hey look at me " steel , much like the "urban camo" finishes - meant for appearance , neither gives any performance advantage (regardless of hype on either ).....comes all back to want , not need.
C'mon , I have a feeling you are holding back some more sweet slipjoints.
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Although I don't mind a subdued finish, I DO mind bead-blasted blades, due to them being a rust magnet.
Found a few small rust spots on my striped SmF, even though it has been wiped periodically with Tuf-cloth and silicone.:grumpy:
The stone-washed blade hasn't done that, and it was smooth right off the bat as well.:thumbup:
Glad I got the striped one in trade.
Last bead blasted finish for me.
Everything else on the knife is nice though.
Found a few small rust spots on my striped SmF, even though it has been wiped periodically with Tuf-cloth and silicone.:grumpy:
The stone-washed blade hasn't done that, and it was smooth right off the bat as well.:thumbup:
Glad I got the striped one in trade.
Last bead blasted finish for me.
Everything else on the knife is nice though.
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I was specifically referring to the appeal of roughly-finished exaggerated "hardcore" military cutlery in my last post. Do you really think that a fragile toy like a purple D/A OTF Microtech or a damascus art auto qualify?
Nothing, but I never made those claims.
If the goal is to only have what is needed , why bother with damascus ? Which is a " hey look at me " steel , much like the "urban camo" finishes - meant for appearance , neither gives any performance advantage (regardless of hype on either ).....comes all back to want , not need.
As I've reiterated ad nauseam, I'm just trying to understand the wide spread appeal of a particular fashion trend. Everyone likes what they like, but I'm curious as to why this particular genre of cutlery has become so desirable.