The American Tanto design was done long before Cold Steel did it by Bob Lum. It's definitely not a proprietary design by any means, no matter how much you like what they've done with them.
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Is it time to rehabilitate Cold Steel? CONTROVERSIAL
- Thread starter joshiecole
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The American Tanto design was done long before Cold Steel did it by Bob Lum. It's definitely not a proprietary design by any means, no matter how much you like what they've done with them.
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Lynn C. Thompson designed it in 1980.
The Bob Lum tanto is cool, but I consider the two to be two different styles of tanto point. Neither are traditional, but it was Cold Steel who popularized the American Tanto point.
Here is a Bob Lum tanto...
And here is the Master Tanto, designed by Lynn C. Thompson...
There are some very important differences here to consider, particularly in relation to the point. The Cold Steel tanto usually features a hollow ground primary grind and a saber ground secondary grind for tip strength. We do also see this in some Bob Lum tantos, though not all. With a Cold Steel tanto, we also see a more abrupt yokote (secondary point). Some of Bob Lum's tantos don't even have a yokote. Futhermore (with the sole exception of the GI Tanto), with a Cold Steel Tanto we almost always see the tip very close to the spine and reinforced by it, whereas Bob Lum tantos almost always seem to feature a swedge.
They're similar but pretty different when you take a close up look. Still, props to Bob Lum. It's a shame he's gone.
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About those 8 out of 10 failed spine whack tests. I know a knife shop here in Oklahoma City who has a bunch of Voyagers in stock. Problem is they are all of the old variety from before the Tri Ad lock was invented. He does his store more as a hobby than a business, and is hardly ever there. I have his phone number, have to call him if I want anything, so he'll be there when I get there.
Wonder if the same thing is going on here? And not dissing the old lock backs either. I still have an old Vaquero Grande with a regular lock back on it, it is one heck of a stout lock.
Wonder if the same thing is going on here? And not dissing the old lock backs either. I still have an old Vaquero Grande with a regular lock back on it, it is one heck of a stout lock.
jdm61
itinerant metal pounder
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I still own a couple of Cold Steel products, an OLD Master Hunter and the Boar Spear. They both work. Yeah, their marketing is a bit cheesy and we make jokes about Mr. Thompson, but its all in good fun. Will I be buying any of their knives in the near future? No. Why? Because they aren't really making anything that I neeed or for that matter, anything want to copy. That could be said about almost all of the knife companies out there right now. 
But here is my question. Why do they need to be "rehabilitated?" They seem to be doing very well and appear to be quite happy with how they are doing. Drive on.
But here is my question. Why do they need to be "rehabilitated?" They seem to be doing very well and appear to be quite happy with how they are doing. Drive on.
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The two are kinda similar, but the points are very different IMO.
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I own a rajah 2 since a bit less than a year and i have to say that i got impressed by the robust feel and the tightness of the lock, even after some pretty rough chopping in my yard its still rock solid and asking for more.
Im not a die hard CS fan, but i have to admit they got a very nice niche market for big blades even if their marketing strategies and badmouthing ''other companies'' make me itch a bit. It still gives me peace of mind to know i can whack through thirteen beef ribs with my folding khukri
The only ''issues'' i have with that rajah are the beadblasted finish which is surprisingly rust prone for such a steel and the almost chisel like sharpening i got on mine, which is still shaving sharp but got a near 40 deg on the left side and almost no relief on the right side, which sucks for a right handed. Still havent reprofiled it and kept a shaving edge with some stropping only after yard work.
Does anyone know if they pay royalties to Emerson in regard of their wave feature ?
It would make me sad if they dont...
Im not a die hard CS fan, but i have to admit they got a very nice niche market for big blades even if their marketing strategies and badmouthing ''other companies'' make me itch a bit. It still gives me peace of mind to know i can whack through thirteen beef ribs with my folding khukri
The only ''issues'' i have with that rajah are the beadblasted finish which is surprisingly rust prone for such a steel and the almost chisel like sharpening i got on mine, which is still shaving sharp but got a near 40 deg on the left side and almost no relief on the right side, which sucks for a right handed. Still havent reprofiled it and kept a shaving edge with some stropping only after yard work.
Does anyone know if they pay royalties to Emerson in regard of their wave feature ?
It would make me sad if they dont...
I own a rajah 2 since a bit less than a year and i have to say that i got impressed by the robust feel and the tightness of the lock, even after some pretty rough chopping in my yard its still rock solid and asking for more.
Im not a die hard CS fan, but i have to admit they got a very nice niche market for big blades even if their marketing strategies and badmouthing ''other companies'' make me itch a bit. It still gives me peace of mind to know i can whack through thirteen beef ribs with my folding khukri
The only ''issues'' i have with that rajah are the beadblasted finish which is surprisingly rust prone for such a steel and the almost chisel like sharpening i got on mine, which is still shaving sharp but got a near 40 deg on the left side and almost no relief on the right side, which sucks for a right handed. Still havent reprofiled it and kept a shaving edge with some stropping only after yard work.
Does anyone know if they pay royalties to Emerson in regard of their wave feature ?
It would make me sad if they dont...
The "wave" patent is for a "pin" that is "formed on the knife blade adjacent to the hinged end". That is, the wave is part of the shape of the blade itself. The Rajah -- like other knives -- uses a top-mounted thumbstud that maybe can be used in the same way as the wave on an Emerson blade but that doesn't infringe on the Emerson patent on the blade shape itself.
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How come Spyderco reference the p'kal as an Emerson wave then ? That knife uses a removable piece of steel which doesnt look like the regular wave. Well i guess thats ambiguous as the wave is the only purpose of this protruding bit while CS' version doubles as a wave and thumb opener.
Even if they didnt infringed that patent i still find this to be lame and back-stabby but given their tendency to steal designs from brands they like to badmouth i guess that was to be expected...
This wont stop me to lay my hands on a xl voyager tanto someday and im somewhat expecting cpm3v versions of the rajah & voyager lines.
Even if they didnt infringed that patent i still find this to be lame and back-stabby but given their tendency to steal designs from brands they like to badmouth i guess that was to be expected...
This wont stop me to lay my hands on a xl voyager tanto someday and im somewhat expecting cpm3v versions of the rajah & voyager lines.
Spyderco might be playing it very conservative, since the P'Kal features what really is a "pin" even if removable. The CS thumbplate is not a "pin". Nor is everybody using the ziptie jerryrigged "wave" a patent infringer (i.e., not everything that functions as a folding knife opener-as-you-draw-it-from-your-pocket treads on the Emerson patent). Just trying to be clear, since the knife-collecting hobby seem to overlap a good deal with the knifemaker-demonizing hobby. I prefer collecting to demonizing.
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Update on my end, I did not do the spine sacks myself the owner of the shop did them. It was quite a while ago so I'm not sure if it was the new Triad lock or not. I cannot imagine it was, I have heard great reports from this lock. I will stop by the shop later this week and ask what ever happened with that knife.
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Exactly. Look at Spyderco for instance. They pretty much were the first with pocket clips. First with serrations on folding knives. First with one-hand opening. Now those features are everywhere. Did all those companies infringe on Spyderco? All it takes is a minor change to make it legal. Minor difference in the shape of the serrations, no copyright violation. Minor change in the shape of the clip, ditto. This has been going on forever, and will continue as long as people will buy the product.
Time to get off the high horse about this issue. Leave it to the companies to battle it out, should they so desire. Myself, I'll just buy knives I like irregardless of whether they "violate copyright". I for one, simply do not care.
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Exactly.
I have never spine-whacked a folder. That particular test is kinda silly and not that useful, IMHO.
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Exactly.
I have never spine-whacked a folder. That particular test is kinda silly and not that useful, IMHO.
This.
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I like CS as a company. I do not care for some of their offerings, but I like quite a few of them. They make pretty good knives for every day use, but they also make lots of fun stuff. They make axes, hammers, sjamboks, throwing axes, swords, spears, rubber trainers, even sharp sticks (plastic) I enjoy that kind of variety.
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I see your in Norman OK. I'm just north of ya in Midwest City. I'd pm ya, but you are not a paying member so I cannot do so.
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The point of the spine whack test is that it is extremely abusive and hard on the knife. In fact, the whole point is that it's beyond anything you're likely to have to put that knife through. Knives that can handle it clearly have a good, strong lock up.
I want to put some of my thoughts brought on by this thread out there. Just as a disclaimer; I'm not an expert on any thing. I like knives. I use knives. I have knives. But I'm not a collector or anything and the only knowledge I have is from here.
So here it goes: I like Cold Steel.
First off, I think the marketing is just fine. The videos are amusing, but they do show that Cold Steel's products can take abuse. The closest to this I know of is Benchmade's testing videos posted on their forum. (On the subject of spine whacks, I do them. I don't smack the blade on a 2x4, I rap it on my knee or something. But they are just another show that their knives are able to handle abuse.)
Second, Aus8 is great for me. I'm not a collector like I said, and I use all my knives. So I'd much rather be able to work out a rolled edge than grind away on a big chip (Although I do love the edge holding of my higher end steel blades). Today I had to cut a receipt in two with my large voyager tanto (I know, a lot of knife for a little job but it's great for scraping off welds on canoes) and the yokote hit a staple. I literally picked up a chip of ceramic from the river bank and worked the roll out on the spot.
Third, I think the whole copying people debate is a bit unnecessary. As someone said, all knife companies use other designs and I don't think Cold Steel's "copy" of a super high end knife is taking any customers away from the "original" designer (it's just not the same group of consumers). It's awesome that Spyderco is so cool about designs, and it's just one of many reasons they are my favorite manufacturer. But I don't believe it is necessary to be legitimate or moral or anything. (And as I understand patents, I think the p'kal pin, endura/delica/matriarch hook, and the cold steel raised thumb ramp could all achieve separate patents. Anyway, you can tell them apart just by how they function.) Also, I don't have a Lum designed knife or a traditional tanto (man, I would love to have either though) but I do believe that the Americanized tanto is a separate design. (With the Strider jab, yeah it's not super "professional" but it is the truth. I think people should know that about Mick whatever his name is, it's not cool at all what he did. That isn't to say, however, that Strider knives aren't great. I don't know.)
Fourth, I think Cold Steel brings something worthwhile to the market just in value. I honestly believe their knives have some of the best dollars to use ratios on the market. They are up there in the same stratosphere as other great manufacturers (Spyderco, Kershaw) and that is something that someone like me appreciates greatly.
Fifth, I don't think good ol' Lynn C. deserves so much.... whatever that attitude is people have. Yeah, he's way way way over the top. But he's passionate about what he does. He likes knives. That comes out in different ways (see Sal's record of super positive presence on the forums) and in Mr. Thompson it comes out as arrogance tinged with child like wonder. I'm glad that a maker gets as fired up as I do when a knife takes some abuse or makes a good cut.
Finally, who doesn't like the poses with the knives, am I right? (they're hilarious, and I always had a feeling they were an inside joke. Learned that on here too!)
I know this is long, but if anybody is still reading, don't take this as "hate" for other or higher end manufacturers. I wish I had the money to buy and use real high end knives, but I don't. I've bought and returned or sold more than I like because when I hold them next to a Cold Steel, Spyderco, etc. I just can't justify it. And PLEASE don't take this as "hate" for collectors. I would absolutely love to collect knives, but again it's just not feasible. I take any and all donations though! I'd be happy to have my mind changed about super high end knives! haha
Rant off.
ALLHSS
So here it goes: I like Cold Steel.
First off, I think the marketing is just fine. The videos are amusing, but they do show that Cold Steel's products can take abuse. The closest to this I know of is Benchmade's testing videos posted on their forum. (On the subject of spine whacks, I do them. I don't smack the blade on a 2x4, I rap it on my knee or something. But they are just another show that their knives are able to handle abuse.)
Second, Aus8 is great for me. I'm not a collector like I said, and I use all my knives. So I'd much rather be able to work out a rolled edge than grind away on a big chip (Although I do love the edge holding of my higher end steel blades). Today I had to cut a receipt in two with my large voyager tanto (I know, a lot of knife for a little job but it's great for scraping off welds on canoes) and the yokote hit a staple. I literally picked up a chip of ceramic from the river bank and worked the roll out on the spot.
Third, I think the whole copying people debate is a bit unnecessary. As someone said, all knife companies use other designs and I don't think Cold Steel's "copy" of a super high end knife is taking any customers away from the "original" designer (it's just not the same group of consumers). It's awesome that Spyderco is so cool about designs, and it's just one of many reasons they are my favorite manufacturer. But I don't believe it is necessary to be legitimate or moral or anything. (And as I understand patents, I think the p'kal pin, endura/delica/matriarch hook, and the cold steel raised thumb ramp could all achieve separate patents. Anyway, you can tell them apart just by how they function.) Also, I don't have a Lum designed knife or a traditional tanto (man, I would love to have either though) but I do believe that the Americanized tanto is a separate design. (With the Strider jab, yeah it's not super "professional" but it is the truth. I think people should know that about Mick whatever his name is, it's not cool at all what he did. That isn't to say, however, that Strider knives aren't great. I don't know.)
Fourth, I think Cold Steel brings something worthwhile to the market just in value. I honestly believe their knives have some of the best dollars to use ratios on the market. They are up there in the same stratosphere as other great manufacturers (Spyderco, Kershaw) and that is something that someone like me appreciates greatly.
Fifth, I don't think good ol' Lynn C. deserves so much.... whatever that attitude is people have. Yeah, he's way way way over the top. But he's passionate about what he does. He likes knives. That comes out in different ways (see Sal's record of super positive presence on the forums) and in Mr. Thompson it comes out as arrogance tinged with child like wonder. I'm glad that a maker gets as fired up as I do when a knife takes some abuse or makes a good cut.
Finally, who doesn't like the poses with the knives, am I right? (they're hilarious, and I always had a feeling they were an inside joke. Learned that on here too!)
I know this is long, but if anybody is still reading, don't take this as "hate" for other or higher end manufacturers. I wish I had the money to buy and use real high end knives, but I don't. I've bought and returned or sold more than I like because when I hold them next to a Cold Steel, Spyderco, etc. I just can't justify it. And PLEASE don't take this as "hate" for collectors. I would absolutely love to collect knives, but again it's just not feasible. I take any and all donations though! I'd be happy to have my mind changed about super high end knives! haha
Rant off.
ALLHSS