Is Jesus God?

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Whenever I see them pull up on bicycles I just turn up some rock and roll. Then when they ask me if I want to talk about jesus I say no, you wanna talk about Led Zeppelin ?
That usually does the trick.:cool:
 
stabman said:
But you also aren't using a book which extolls the virtues of FAITH IN THE ABSENCE OF PROOF AS A VIRTUE.
That's what makes it odd.
Read the Bible...it's chock full of faithy goodness, not demands for proof (with few exceptions).
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Actually, the people who wrote the bible saw the proof. Actually it says that the bible was written by the holy spirit through the apostles. The bible claims in itself to be written by God through the prophets and the apostles. We are called to accept these truths by faith. If God provided iron clad proof of his existence there would be no element of faith. We would essentially be robots created to worship him. He wants us to seek him and rely on him.
 
stabman said:
Although I do admit to being a fan of religion...all of them.
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They are a source of endless amusement. I think I like the Sikhs best. They have moustaches like Salvadore Dali and carry swords which they actually sharpen and know how to use . . . but if you do to temple you're supposed to eat puddin' with yer hands, and that just ain't right. Rastafarianism is another great religion, but I don't smoke ganja anymore so I can't really get into that one either . . . and hippies are smelly. So I have decided to become a Cthulhu Cultist instead. They like my custom knives and have great parties. :thumbup:
 
Andrew Colglazier said:
I'm sorry, but this makes no sense.

Christian evangelism is the most irritating thing about the religion. I like Jews because they don't proselytize. Christians just can't help themselves, it's a part of the religion.

Andy
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I'd say the second most irritating. Over the centuries, Christianity "grew up" so to speak, while the second most popular religion often even today proselytizes the old fashioned way, with the sword.

UffDa said:
Exactly! Most religions do not try to PROVE that they are right. In my experience, it is Christians seems to spend the most time defending their religion. Why is that? A religion is a belief system. You either believe or you don't. That seems pretty simple to me.
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See above.

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Anyway, if I may complete my previously abandoned thought [I had to get in some PT], I often think that many of the strident anti-religious people that "FU" people that politely try to proselytize are themselves guilty of hypocrisy. I'd say the biggest hang-up the anti-religious crowd have is the idea that religious people are intolerant and even hateful. Pot meet kettle.
 
"She left me for Jesus and that just ain't fair, she said he is perfect, how could I compare. She said I should find Him and know peace at last------but if I ever find Jesus, I'm kicking his axx!"...........Hayes Earll Good song!

Fog
 
OK, this is the internet and no amount of pissing and moaning is gonna change anyone's mind. So humor it is:

A man in Topeka , Kansas decided to write a book about churches around the country. He started by flying to San Francisco and started working east from there.

Going to a very large church, he began taking photographs and making notes.

He spotted a golden telephone on the vestibule wall and was intrigued with a sign, which read "Calls: $10,000 a minute."

Seeking out the pastor he asked about the phone and the sign. The pastor answered that this golden phone is, in fact, a direct line to heaven and if he pays the price he can talk directly to GOD.

The man thanked the pastor and continued on his way. As he continued to visit churches in Seattle , Phoenix , Salt Lake City , Denver , Oklahoma City, and around the United States , he found more phones, with the same sign, and the same answer from each pastor.

Finally, he arrived in Texas , upon entering a church in Dallas , Texas , behold - he saw the usual golden telephone. However, THIS time, the sign read "Calls: 35 cents."

Fascinated, he asked to talk to the pastor, "Reverend, I have been in cities all across the country and in each church I have found this golden telephone and have been told it is a direct line to Heaven and that I could talk to GOD, but in the other churches the cost was $10,000 a minute. Your sign reads only 35 cents a call. Why is that?"
The pastor, smiling benignly, replied, "Son, you're in Texas now ...You're in God's Country, It's a local call."
 
Get a Bible, and read Psalm 22 and Isaiah chapter 53 - who is this about?

Then realize that these are also in the Greek version of the old testament called the Septuagint, which was translated in the 3rd century BC - several hundred years before Christ's birth. Copies exist.

Now what do you do?
 
87Burban said:
Get a Bible, and read Psalm 22 and Isaiah chapter 53 - who is this about?

Then realize that these are also in the Greek version of the old testament called the Septuagint, which was translated in the 3rd century BC - several hundred years before Christ's birth. Copies exist.

Now what do you do?
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Nice try, but I think that we have already been through that. You can take almost anything in the bible and make it prove anything you want.

Who's to say that the story of Jesus wasn't written to fit Psalm 22? Hmmmm?
 
Esav says: "The old and new testament do both claim to be divinely written by God through men." So how do you get to say the New was really divinely inspired but the Old was just "one of these rule-books that contain 613 commandments written by men"?

The book with the 613 commandments is the Torah, the Five Books of Moses.

Benny says:

Are the 613 "rules" scattered throughout the old testament. I don't believe they are laid out by god in a list like the 10 commandments. Weren't they compiled into a list by a Jewish scholar? I mean, in every instance, all 613, did god say "you must do this"?
The Jewish leaders confronted Jesus several times in about healing on the sabbath as that broke their law.
They saw him PERFORM MIRACLES in front of them and it made them angry and they planned his death because of it.
This is what happens when man makes himself more important than God.

Here's a funny story I heard recently from a pastor who recently went to Israel.
He was getting on an elevator in a 15 story or so building on the sabbath. It opened on the 1st floor and was packed full.
Nobody got out. He got on and was wondering why nobody got off. They told him it they weren't allowed to push the button for their floor because it was the sabbath and that constituted work. Then, ascertaining he was a gentile, they asked him if he would push the button for them. This just cracks me up. Does the bible really say you can't do something as simple as pushing a button on the sabbath. I don't think so. I've heard that Jews actually have a 30 page book of what constitutes work on the sabbath. Is this true?

Finally, I fully accept the old testament as written by God as is the new testament.
The thing I don't agree with is taking parts of either book and compiling religious lists that are taken out of context.
The Pharisees of Jesus' day had created a religion based so much more on their works than on worshipping God that they didn't even recognize the messiah when he came. Or maybe they were so pridefull that God wouldn't let them recognize Jesus. I take both th OT and nt as word of God. But when Jesus came a prophesied in the ot, and he did fullfill the prophesies, a new covenant was created that replaced the old covenant. As Jesus said, "this is the new covenant in my blood, poured out for the forgiveness of sins". Whoever believes in him enters into that covenant.
 
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bennyb said:
Benny says:
The Jewish leaders confronted Jesus several times in about healing on the sabbath as that broke their law.
They saw him PERFORM MIRACLES in front of them and it made them angry and they planned his death because of it.
This is what happens when man makes himself more important than God.

**snip

But when Jesus came a prophesied in the ot, and he did fullfill the prophesies, a new covenant was created that replaced the old covenant. As Jesus said, "this is the new covenant in my blood, poured out for the forgiveness of sins". Whoever believes in him enters into that covenant.
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So were the Jewish leaders that "plotted Jesus death" working of their own free will, or was God using them to create this covenant ? It seems that they should be lauded as heroes by christians if it was free will, because without jesus death there goes the whole basis of your religion.
If this was God's plan all along, to send his only son to die on the cross for our sins, then what part could the jewish leaders have really played other than what was written for them by God ?
 
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As I said: it was liable to be the beginning of an ugly argument. Argument it was, fortunately, not so ugly. Just one observation. I think it's a mistake to say or believe that the Bible, the Koran or the Torah were written by God. The Torah, as far as I understand is a book of rules and precepts for the israelites; it's a book of traditions, compiled and adapted and modified along several centuries, during which time, the israelites entered in contact and/or were ruled by other nations (asirians, babilonians, persians) and were influenced by them. Does that make less valid? Not at all. Also the New Testament: it was not written by Jesus. The New Testament was written not by people who knew Jesus, but by people who were followers of his teachings, AS THEY UNDERSTOOD THEM about one century after the accepted time of his death. One has to remember that after several Councils, the Catholic Church decreed some Gospels Canonical and others, Apocryphal. Who is to say today, which were what? The Church was pursuing a political goal. And something very similar occured with the Protestants, beginning with Luther. The Koran also. At the time of the death of Muhammad, there was no written form of the Koran. The compilation of the teachings of Muhammad began with the first Caliph, Abu Bakr. I don't mean to disrespect any of the religions mentioned (or any other). Just to remind everybody that this books, all offer valuable teachings to helps us become better persons, but if we are not careful, can also be used to justify all manner of atrocities, just because the "other" are heretics, heathens, pagans, etc. The History is full of these instances.
 
The funnest things about a knife forum is discussing knives.
Tied for the least fun thing about a knife forum is discussing jesus, and NOT discussing knives.
 
This whole "Jewish leaders that plotted Jesus death" thought is the road that leads to bad internet. There's a chance that idea could be discussed logically and respectfully, but most of the time it gets emotional and a fustercluck ensues.
 
HairahSitna said:
So were the Jewish leaders that plotted Jesus death working of their own free will, or was God using them to create this covenant ? It seems that they should be lauded as heroes by christians if it was free will, because without jesus death there goes the whole basis of your religion.
If this was God's plan all along, to send his only son to die on the cross for our sins, then what part could the jewish leaders have really played other than what was written for them by God ?
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I can't speak for God, obviously. This is one of the many things that god hasn't revealed. God has revealed some of his nature to us, but as the bible says "what has been revealed belongs to us, but what the lord has kept secret belongs to him". As a Christian, I believe that God used the Pharisees to fulfill his purposes. There is much in the bible that shows that God gives people an element of free will, but at the same time he knows all and sees all and "knows every hair on your head". It does say that God "hardens whom he wishes". The God of the bible is sovereign, omnipotent and omniscient. In other word, he is all powerful and all knowing. He can and does whatever he wishes. This is throughout scripture. "He uses all thing according to his purpose". It says in proverbs "a kings heart is but a stream of water i. The hands of the lord".
 
HairahSitna said:
So were the Jewish leaders that plotted Jesus death working of their own free will, or was God using them to create this covenant ? It seems that they should be lauded as heroes by christians if it was free will, because without jesus death there goes the whole basis of your religion.
If this was God's plan all along, to send his only son to die on the cross for our sins, then what part could the jewish leaders have really played other than what was written for them by God ?
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Wow, I like it... that's a pretty cool question.:thumbup::)

I'd say a bit of both... The Pharisees acted of their own free will, in a way that God knew in advance they would act, so indeed it was God's plan all along, to send his only son to die on the cross for our sins.
 
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