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Is waterjetting a no no in custom handmade knives?
- Thread starter killharder
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Chefget
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Though slightly off subject, I find this statement to be somehow odd. Ed Fowler, more than any other knifemaker I can think of, has been making the 'same' knife over and over again for the better part of 20 years....
-Michael
Ed's knives look alike because he is an artist with a recognizable style. His blades are not cut to the same pattern as evidenced by the picture above. Each is an individual and hand made in his shop. I believe he starts with a ball bearing not a bar and a pattern. From his writings, I believe he might say a waterjet cut set of knives "has no soul." I don't like his style, but it certainly has his "soul" in it.
Per his writings, Ed's goal is an artistic and practical expression of a knife and the pronghorn design with thousands of possible permutations expresses his art in the best manner. He also is on a quest for the best steel/heat treat combination. After many years in business he believes he's found his sweet spot. He builds "working" knives.
What Ed was discussing in his Blade article, is probably best exemplified by going to a knife show dominated by ABS. Many ABS makers are copying the "Masters" but never finding their own "voice" in their designs and execution. He tells the story of a new maker who had his own style and produced a good "working" knife. Ed believed the man had vision and promise. However, this person comes to a knife show for opinions and was discouraged by the "knife community" he showed his work to, because his work did not "fit the mold" and he received destructive criticism. Ed lamented the fact that makers do not find their "voice" and the "knife community" forces makers to fit their work to someone else's definition of a "good" knife.
Per his writings, Ed's goal is an artistic and practical expression of a knife and the pronghorn design with thousands of possible permutations expresses his art in the best manner. He also is on a quest for the best steel/heat treat combination. After many years in business he believes he's found his sweet spot. He builds "working" knives.
What Ed was discussing in his Blade article, is probably best exemplified by going to a knife show dominated by ABS. Many ABS makers are copying the "Masters" but never finding their own "voice" in their designs and execution. He tells the story of a new maker who had his own style and produced a good "working" knife. Ed believed the man had vision and promise. However, this person comes to a knife show for opinions and was discouraged by the "knife community" he showed his work to, because his work did not "fit the mold" and he received destructive criticism. Ed lamented the fact that makers do not find their "voice" and the "knife community" forces makers to fit their work to someone else's definition of a "good" knife.
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My knives are a little different and they certainly were when I started in 96-97 when I did index finger cutouts and made the guard with the steel, not brass and didn't put bolsters on them.
I don't belong to any of the guilds. I respect there knowledge and many things they do but like all organizations they can get a little bought up in Well, That's the way it done because, that's the way we do it.
Ed does forge his blades but if he used modern stainless It's very possible that you may be hearing a different tune regarding the use of water jets to merely profile his designs. Stainless doesn't forge very easily. It has to be in an a oxygen free environment or the scale can ruin the stainless.
Brownshoe,
Do you make knives or any other kind of craft?
I don't belong to any of the guilds. I respect there knowledge and many things they do but like all organizations they can get a little bought up in Well, That's the way it done because, that's the way we do it.
Ed does forge his blades but if he used modern stainless It's very possible that you may be hearing a different tune regarding the use of water jets to merely profile his designs. Stainless doesn't forge very easily. It has to be in an a oxygen free environment or the scale can ruin the stainless.
Brownshoe,
Do you make knives or any other kind of craft?
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People "copy the masters " because the Masters have set a benchmark that others test themselves trying to reach.
I would like to see some examples of people who are stuck in copying the masters and never move on to their own vision.
There are probably more talented knifemakers in America right now then at any other time in history. It truly is mind boggling to see so many working to their "own vision" .
Being a knifemaker is a journey. Some get stuck in a rut and make the same style knife with the same exact materials and others move past that.
If people are only seeing the same thing over and over again it is because their view is to narrow and they need to widen their gaze.
I would like to see some examples of people who are stuck in copying the masters and never move on to their own vision.
There are probably more talented knifemakers in America right now then at any other time in history. It truly is mind boggling to see so many working to their "own vision" .
Being a knifemaker is a journey. Some get stuck in a rut and make the same style knife with the same exact materials and others move past that.
If people are only seeing the same thing over and over again it is because their view is to narrow and they need to widen their gaze.
Matthew Gregory
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I think I have no idea what Ed, or your quoting him, could possibly mean. Are you telling me that the knife world as it currently sits lacks diversity?
Really?
Just exactly how does one manage to determine if someone else isn't following his muse, do you think? Do you need a special set of glasses to 'see' their soul? Ask their mom? Take their temperature with a rectal thermometer...?
Ludicrous observation, and, frankly, totally invalid. If you can't see outrageous talent and creativity going on in the knifemaking world, you're looking in the wrong places...
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I completely agree with the above. The number of new and old makers, the materials used, and the vast sweep of knives produced today is utterly staggering. If a man is discouraged by "destructive' criticism, he should go back to his mommy.
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Is there a follow-up formula? Do you factor in height and age?
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How did I cut my blades for the last 4 years?
I draw the profile on the bar stock. I drill holes along the perimeter with a 3/16" carbide bit. After that, I cut between the holes with a Dremel cutoff wheel. That took several hours depending on the size and thickness.
Last month, I bought a bandsaw.
I draw the profile on the bar stock. I drill holes along the perimeter with a 3/16" carbide bit. After that, I cut between the holes with a Dremel cutoff wheel. That took several hours depending on the size and thickness.
Last month, I bought a bandsaw.
james terrio
Sharpest Knife in the Light Socket
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What a complete and utter non-issue. I realize everyone needs a hobby, and some are extremely passionate about it, but great googly moogly, some of you folks have way too much time on your hands if you're really that concerned about a maker or smith having some blades cut by WJ. First World Problems, indeed.
I got news for ya ladies and gentlemen, neither the steel nor the finished knife gives a hoot in heck whether it was cut to profile with a waterjet, an EDM, a plasma-cutter, a bandsaw, a hacksaw, ground to profile by rubbing it on a concrete sidewalk or nibbled to shape by rabid squirrels. I can train a reasonably bright monkey to profile blades on a grinder. It's just not that big of a deal.
Some years ago, I participated in a group build on another forum where everyone started out with the exact same WJ blanks. I was pleasantly surprised to see how many very different knives came out of that project. Why? Because each maker ground them his or her own way. By hand. Some made several with different grinds.
Incidentally, all the steel, handle materials, bolts, labor, WJ and HT services, finding the appropriate recipients (active-duty military personel), shipping, etc for that project were 100% donated by the makers and vendors out of our own pockets.... in my case, a well-respected BF member provided high-quality kydex sheaths for the 3 I built, at his own cost. Go right ahead and try to tell me those knives don't have "soul".
"Handmade" to me, means the bevels are forged and/or ground by one human being who's controlling the process. That's what allows the blade to cut well, and where genuine skill comes into play. Watch some of the guys using power hammers actually work for a couple hours, and explain to me why they're not producing "handmade" knives. Just because a machine is providing the "muscle" and helping them work more efficiently, doesn't mean it doesn't take a great deal of skill and experience, and an understanding of the whole complicated mess from design to fruition. I feel the same goes for the really good machinists among us... I assure you, they're not just pushing a button and "pow" a high-performance blade just magically pops out.
"Custom" means one knife, made to spec for one person, to suit their requirements... no matter how plain or fancy. Just my opinion.
* JT drops the mic*
I got news for ya ladies and gentlemen, neither the steel nor the finished knife gives a hoot in heck whether it was cut to profile with a waterjet, an EDM, a plasma-cutter, a bandsaw, a hacksaw, ground to profile by rubbing it on a concrete sidewalk or nibbled to shape by rabid squirrels. I can train a reasonably bright monkey to profile blades on a grinder. It's just not that big of a deal.
Some years ago, I participated in a group build on another forum where everyone started out with the exact same WJ blanks. I was pleasantly surprised to see how many very different knives came out of that project. Why? Because each maker ground them his or her own way. By hand. Some made several with different grinds.
Incidentally, all the steel, handle materials, bolts, labor, WJ and HT services, finding the appropriate recipients (active-duty military personel), shipping, etc for that project were 100% donated by the makers and vendors out of our own pockets.... in my case, a well-respected BF member provided high-quality kydex sheaths for the 3 I built, at his own cost. Go right ahead and try to tell me those knives don't have "soul".
"Handmade" to me, means the bevels are forged and/or ground by one human being who's controlling the process. That's what allows the blade to cut well, and where genuine skill comes into play. Watch some of the guys using power hammers actually work for a couple hours, and explain to me why they're not producing "handmade" knives. Just because a machine is providing the "muscle" and helping them work more efficiently, doesn't mean it doesn't take a great deal of skill and experience, and an understanding of the whole complicated mess from design to fruition. I feel the same goes for the really good machinists among us... I assure you, they're not just pushing a button and "pow" a high-performance blade just magically pops out.
"Custom" means one knife, made to spec for one person, to suit their requirements... no matter how plain or fancy. Just my opinion.
* JT drops the mic*
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I agree with James. I'll go further and say that I think it really doesn't matter at all how the knives are made, as long as the maker is making quality knives, and is upfront and honest about their process and the customers know exactly what they're getting. If both parties are happy then that's really all that matters.
Also, to the point about some maker's knives all being the same, I can speak to this as I only really make one model of knife. My design and even most of my materials have stayed the same for a while but my process is constantly changing. For me process design is something I really enjoy, so the constant improvement (the japanese call this Kaizen) is movement in of itself.
My designs will likely stay very similar to how they are for a long time to come, the materials and processes involved will not, they will constantly change and that's what keeps me going.
Also, to the point about some maker's knives all being the same, I can speak to this as I only really make one model of knife. My design and even most of my materials have stayed the same for a while but my process is constantly changing. For me process design is something I really enjoy, so the constant improvement (the japanese call this Kaizen) is movement in of itself.
My designs will likely stay very similar to how they are for a long time to come, the materials and processes involved will not, they will constantly change and that's what keeps me going.
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I have no objection to it at all so long as the maker actually checks and hand-fits the work to make the final product. If all they are doing is having some other guys assemble parts, that's one thing, but if they are inspecting the parts and hand fitting them, as far as I am concerned that's custom work. Water-jetting is just a highly precise way to produce a part that the maker has designed. Same with CNC machining.
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I see the definition of handmade is rapidly expanding. Soon, if not already, the term will be meaningless.
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Totally disagree. Where do you draw the line? If a guy uses a Dremel instead of a manual file is that not "hand made?" How about if he uses a file instead of chipping the blade shape with rocks? Technology advances and people, including knife makers, use the new technology as it becomes available. New tech replaces old. What tech CAN'T replace is creative design that the maker does up front and the careful assembly and tuning of the final product that the maker does at the end. These things can only be done by highly skilled and talented humans.
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Totally disagree with what? I said very little. With that said though, I am a traditionalist. You're more than welcome to your view.
james terrio
Sharpest Knife in the Light Socket
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I don't think it will become meaningless at all, David. The very fact that not only makers but more-importantly, buyers are discussing it shows that while it's open to some interpretation, it's important to us all.
We all draw our own lines in the sand; I've drawn mine and I'm very comfortable with them - as are my clients.
I'm pretty sure we all agree that blades stamped, HT'ed, ground, polished and slapped together entirely by robots are definitely not handmade or custom.
There are still some hugely talented and dedicated folks gathering up their own ore and smelting their own iron and making bloomery steel and forging it to shape and HT'ing it and polishing and sharpening it with 1000-year-old technology... but they're far and few between, for a very good reason. Very few clients can afford to keep those makers fed and housed long enough to do all that, and very few (if any) of those makers can rely solely on those kind of blades to keep a roof over their head. It's an absolutely terrible business model.
I don't even want to ponder what this sword would actually cost if a person were to commission it:
[video=youtube;nXbLyVpWsVM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXbLyVpWsVM[/video]
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Yeah I agree... I've had people tell me knives aren't handmade because I didn't forge them. I've had people tell me my knives aren't hand-made because I use power tools. Unfortunately the definition is open to interpretation, that's kind of unavoidable.
As I said I think the important thing is that the maker is upfront about their processes and that the customer is happy. Labels are hard... Like the video that Beretta released recently showing the making of their high-end 'handmade' guns. The bulk of the shaping on the action of that gun was done on a 5 axis CNC machining center. All of the final fitting and embellishment was done by hand though, is it still hand-made? Is there some percentage that needs to be met in order to use the 'hand made' label?
Personally I'm moving away from the handmade and similar labels where I can. Instead I'm describing my knives as they are: 'high performance working knives', and then showing customers as much detail about my process as I can. This lets me change my process as I see fit and leaves it up to the customers as to whether or not my knives and methods are of interest to them...
People will always use labels as it suits them, that can't really be changed or argued against. I think the best path forward is simply transparency.
As I said I think the important thing is that the maker is upfront about their processes and that the customer is happy. Labels are hard... Like the video that Beretta released recently showing the making of their high-end 'handmade' guns. The bulk of the shaping on the action of that gun was done on a 5 axis CNC machining center. All of the final fitting and embellishment was done by hand though, is it still hand-made? Is there some percentage that needs to be met in order to use the 'hand made' label?
Personally I'm moving away from the handmade and similar labels where I can. Instead I'm describing my knives as they are: 'high performance working knives', and then showing customers as much detail about my process as I can. This lets me change my process as I see fit and leaves it up to the customers as to whether or not my knives and methods are of interest to them...
People will always use labels as it suits them, that can't really be changed or argued against. I think the best path forward is simply transparency.
james terrio
Sharpest Knife in the Light Socket
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At the end of the day, that's a question for the consumers, providers and (sadly) politicians to decide.
There's a fairly major lawsuit going on right now, alleging that the folks who market "Maker's Mark" and other spirits have actually defrauded distributors and consumers by claiming their product is "handmade" when, according to various standards and actual laws that vary from state-to-state, it's clearly not. Therefore, driving up prices unfairly, based on "perceived value". Whether or not those suits have merit is not for me to say, but I suspect it's gonna be rather costly for the distilleries and marketing firms involved, one way or another.
I'm very open about my processes. So are a large majority of the individuals and small shops making high-quality knives today. Caveat emptor. Vote with your wallet.
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