Isn there anyone at Buck that checks the quality of the knives anymore ?

cziv said:
That would be an interesting topic for the TV show "How Things Are Made" if any of you have it on your cable's packages. Shows how an item is made from bare bones to the finished product.

It's amazing how many things are made w/o a human hand seemingly involved! :eek:

Btw, what does Canada have to do with RB's problem with in buying "12 new buck knives just in the last 2 months" and everyone being a bad example?

I can only think that a bad lot was sent out and distributed - but more than one man should be complaining about it. Have you Googled it or called Buck? Sorry but I haven't read every post.
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I like that show, and watch it a lot. A few years back, they did a show on Case knives. It was really cool, to see everything that goes into making them
 
RAZORBLADES said:
Not a word from anyone from Buck on this thread so far,I guess its not important anymore.The way i see it is if each knife is hand sharpened ,then each knife can be hand inspected.Why not?
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Still no reply from Buck...that's really too bad.
I'm sending a new one back today myself:
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This is a Tactical 110 (HATE that name, but I do like the knife, other than the blade wobble and the fact that the blade contacts the liner when closing). I know that Mr Houser will help make it right, but I'm out $8 in postage and ins to send this back and it's the SECOND one I've sent in this week.
 
I never heard a word from buck ,and that is very unusual,as know thisn thread was forwarded to Joe Houser.I sent my knives to a custom maker on the forums to get them fixed up,not very impressed but it is what it is.
 
Razor,

There was a thread over in Traditional forum with some Buck complaints. It was old but was recently brought back up. It was talking about a specific model on some of it. Here is what I wrote on that forum thought I should share here on the 'HOME' forum.
300Bucks

Lets see if I can't help feelings rather than stir up troubles.

First the 307 is discontinued, but Buck will fix it, BUT it was involved with the closing of the Camillus factory. Parts left over were assembled at the very end and sold. Some parts and old boxes were sold and former employees bought, assembled, and sold them, especially on the bay. So we have several 307 situations that I consider not quite "BUCK" normal. When buying from Whee-bay be sure your seller has a good return policy. Don't buy a 307 or other discontinued 300 model from a 'No returns" policy seller. Especially ones that look brand new.

I can't address any personal knowledge on the let down of quality out of the factory. I don't buy many new knives, I maybe have gotten two dozen or so since the factory moved. I have had a couple of imperfections, one I fixed myself (Vantage blade) and lived with others. They are afterall good but not costly knives (300s). If you buy them in a bubble pack from the 'mart' be sure to carefully study them before checking out. The two or three I bought at Branson and SMKWs were all top notch out of a box into the hand before money was exchanged. When I am in Idaho next summer at the BCCI celebration at the factory, I will quiz folks on the high spey blades, especially in the 301 model. The 303 seems to have less of a problem with this.

Buck folks on this forum - I know Buck employees read here pretty frequently. I doubt they feel they can openly comment on some of our complaints. I do know that things tightened up during last few years with the economy shifts and that Joe Houser stays running. I personally DO NOT get all my emails replied to and when I do it is several days or even a week or two later. So at least give him a few days before thinking you are not getting a email back. They are also hunters and the fall is a tough time to get instant particular person service....know what I mean. But, I know this is not an excuse, they are a service business.

I have read over in the Buck forum where Razorblades has had some bad experiences and I hope someone from Buck will comment to him. It is tougher to deal with some of those issues in Canada. And its tougher living in the sticks. I still would trade the the sticks for the tougher dealings given the choice......

In the end I would like Buck to be perfect but they are not. I can't gripe too loud because I get plain\unfancy $35.00 or less stockmen which are ment to be in the pockets of farmers, ranchers, woodworkers, carpet layers, dozer drivers etc. Buck says if they foul up we will fix situation. I want them to be perfect but will stretch perfect a little because of the price. This is my opinion and I am still appreciative and understanding of Razors and others situations and desires. When they get to the point they won't fix it in the end, I would like to hear about it......300Bucks
 
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300Bucks said:
In the end I would like Buck to be perfect but they are not. I can't gripe too loud because I get plain\unfancy $35.00 or less stockmen which are ment to be in the pockets of farmers, ranchers, woodworkers, carpet layers, dozer drivers etc.
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300Bucks,

Thanks for a nice post. I don't disagree with a word of it.

I will probably upset some folks in saying this, but IMO, these QC issues are directly related to a loss of focus in terms of corporate identity and product line.

IMO, the internet raises the bar unrealistically with respect to consumer expectations regarding "boutique" products. In my experience, consumers talk to fellow consumers on internet forums and they form little communities of like-minded group think and end up focusing on certain easy-to-see litmus tests as markers of perceived quality, regardless of whether or not these litmus tests have any bearing on actual usage. Like many of you, I've been involved with these internet discussions since the early 90s and I've seen this same consumer focus on the pretty and trivial in many contexts: backpacking equipment, bike equipment, mountaineering gear, skiing equipment. Friends who are into pens and cameras report the same thing.

As somebody who works in engineering, I understand that some QC issues affect performance and some only affect looks. As somebody who did a (short lived) stint marketing and product management, I understand that, as the old product manager's adage says, "An ounce of perception is worth a pound of performance."

I understand that collectors who focus on fit and finish issues drive repeat sales and I understand why Buck has their custom shop and why Buck offers limited editions and special runs for big vendors.

I also understand the low knife education level among many first time knife buyers and the price pressure on low end knives and understand completely why Buck must have reasonable low price knives.

And I understand that hunting and working in the trades no longer defines the full customer base and I understand that Buck must have lines that appeal to non-hunters and non-laborers.

But, what I don't understand is Buck loosing their focus on their traditional core to provide tough knives which, as you so correctly described as "meant to be in the pockets of farmers, ranchers, woodworkers, carpet layers, dozer drivers etc."

IMO, it's rough times for Buck when the produce poorly designed and prone to fail knives like the Bantam, when they use softer, more easily worn bushing in their joints, and when they expand their product line too broadly. My prediction is that in a global internet enabled market, the brands that will survive are those that focus on and deliver on a core mission and identity. IMO, Buck should mean tough and nearly impossible to break around the world. Not, we have a knife for everybody.

I'll be working out in the yard and woods behind the place to deal with the (minor, all things considered) storm damage from Sally. I won't be carrying any of my recent Bucks - they all have developed vertical play from such hard use. That's a dang pity.
 
Here's Joe's reply to me today when I reminded him about this thread.

"Dave,

When I got your first heads up I sent a link to the thread to Bill Keys and Gary Alvarado, the two guys in charge of the shop. It created quite a stir and they wanted to know what the specific issues are with each of the knives. That’s a fair question on their part, how else would they know what direction to go in?

I can say from a warranty department standpoint that I don’t have very many customer inquiries about the issues that I have heard about although I will admit I haven’t heard them all. I can say that as of recent, I don’t have any trends or red flags evident in the returns to warranty. If I start to get a lot of complaints about a certain defect, I inform the shop. I haven’t had to do this based on the returns/calls/emails in quite a while.

I suppose this could mean that customers are not complaining and just “living with it” when they discover something they don’t like. Its hard to know.

Gary A. is probably a new name to you as he just started here a couple months back. He is seriously concerned with making a quality product. I did not know how much so until I heard of some folks losing their jobs over bad quality practices. He means business!

I am hoping to meet with him soon and ask him about his plans for the shop. In the meantime, I hope this email helps at least a little. I have been doing this for a while and have ideas in regards to the knives mentioned in the thread but without actually seeing the knives, it would be irresponsible of me to offer an explanation. The one poster provided a picture of a 110 where the blade was touching the case, that knife should not have made it out of the building like that. The tolerance the shop has is that as long as you can slide a piece of paper between the blade and the inside of the case, it is ok.

Anyway, I do hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Houser

Director of Customer Relations
Buck Collectors Club Liaison
Company Historian"
 
Not that anyone asked me... but I would like to say how refreshing and nice it is to see men approach a common problem politely, respectfully, and with the larger issue not being hurt feelings but being concerned with the common problem.

300Bucks said:
In the end I would like Buck to be perfect but they are not. I can't gripe too loud because I get plain\unfancy $35.00 or less stockmen which are ment to be in the pockets of farmers, ranchers, woodworkers, carpet layers, dozer drivers etc. Buck says if they foul up we will fix situation. I want them to be perfect but will stretch perfect a little because of the price. 300Bucks
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I guess as long as purchasers want to be assured that their product will be fixed in the end, they will be happy. Me, I am thinking... sending a $30 knife back to Buck means packing it up in a post office approved package, driving it to the post office, paying for postage, maybe insurance and a delivery confirmation might be more than I want to deal with. Then wait a couple of three weeks or so, and then the working knife you purchased to put to work will come back to you.

Additionally, I don't think I should give them much slack. If they can't put out a reliably good product, they need to rethink their strategy. For a real working knife, I don't care if the blades center perfectly, I just don't want them to rub. It doesn't have to be sharpened perfectly, just enough to get by until I can sharpen it properly. It doesn't have to be pretty and have all surfaces mirror polished. The blades don't have to all snap the same, and there can be small gap on the springs/case/spacer side of things. The scales don't have to be a perfect fit to the bolsters, and I don't mind if the blade is scratched when I get it. These are tools, not made for brain surgery.

But I won't live with wobbly blades (side to side or up and down) on any of my work knives as that condition only gets worse. Wobblers go back. I agree that we should expect a GEC here, but if the knife will not perform over a period of time for the tasks it was designed to do it is of no value.

I am that construction guy you mentioned, the one these knives are designed for. I mentioned this before, so I will make a long story short, I went to Bass Pro to buy myself a new Buck stockman. The "Chairman Series Comfort Craft 3 7/8" stockman called out to me. I looked at all three knives that they store had on hand and out of all three, the spey was so deep in the case I couldn't get to the nail nick. ALL THREE. The guy behind the counter was a big knife fan, and a big Buck fan, and he apologized profusely, told me he had never seen anything like that, (we both talked about how well our older Bucks had served for years) and he took them off the shelf. He told me that if I was really looking for a quality Buck, I should probably check out the offshore models in the blister packs along the isle. No thanks... three bad knives in a row was enough. Wasn't in the mood for J2 anyway.

I don't think I should get a lower quality product for any reason. If the knife retails for $35, then they should add a dollar to it as a quality control measure. That way they could pay for someone to look at the knives. Say it took 15 seconds, they could generate $4 a minute, or $240 an hour! Hurray! Problem solved and they make plenty of money doing Q/C! More importantly, they have happy customers that know they are buying a quality product out of the box, one with no issues.

Remember.... Buck used to be known for that type of product.

Personally, I won't accept "as long as in the end they still stand behind their product I will buy" philosophy. I won't do simple quality control for a company.

This is 100% the reason I quit buying CASE knives years ago. I don't care if they stand behind them or not; if any product is too much of a hassle I won't fool with it. I shouldn't have to. I buy a knife based on previous experience and current reputation and I understand not all efforts are our best. It kills me though, that like CASE, at one time you bought a Buck, took it out of the box and dropped it in your pocket. No Q/C needed. They wore like iron and didn't need customer service when or immediately after you bought it. That is the Buck I remember. But thanks to the warnings and comments on this forum and on another I checked out that Comfort Craft carefully. How could a knife get by Q/C that had the nick so deep you couldn't get to it?

Robert
 
I have bought about 20 different bucks in the last 3 years or so, all US made. Of those, I had a few that i was not impressed with, some just felt cheap. Some I am very happy with like the Avid pro S30V folder. I recently bought a paperstone 110 online and it was shocking how bad it was. The blade touches the liner when closed like the photos above. It had some play etc. Did not send it back but was shocked it was so screwed up on a such an established model.
 
The problem is that some will just accept the knife and just use it,regardless of the wobbly blade,or whatever problems it has.I don't ,I want a knife that locks tight,works right.That is also the buck I remember,And I really believe chasing the cheapo knife market will be bad for buck in the end.You see so many plastic cheap knives coming from buck now,and less well built knives.

Lets not forget that back in the day when knives were much cheaper,Buck knives were expensive,and people bought them because they knew they were getting a quality knife,and didn't mind paying more for it.

My whole issue is that when i get a bad knife,there goes $25-30 in shipping back to buck,for a knife that shoukld be on my belt being used.Quality is something that you make happen,it doesn't just appear because you put parts together,it has to be done right.
 
Is it unreasonable to ask for an inexpensive locking knife that is able to be worked hard with zero wobble and (essentially) no lock failure?

My experiences with $15 Opinels tell me this isn't unreasonable.

I've owned 6 Bucks and 4 Opinels. Some new. Several used. 4 out of the 6 Bucks I own have blade wobble, mostly vertical. Put to hard use, I can feel the blade and lock bar move. None of my Opinels wobble when the lockring is fully engage. None of them. Not a bit. Zero wobble. And I've used those Opinels as hard or harder than my Bucks.

There are plenty of reasons to dislike Opinels but integrity and durability of the joint and locking mechanism are not among them. Based on my experience, this is the bar that Buck has to get over. It needs to find a way to make knives that are as tough and durable as a $15 Opinel.

If I were advising CJ Buck, I would suggest that he take the 110, Ecolite 110 and the Bucklite Max 486, find his best engineers and demand a review and revision of the joint and lock bar design with the goal of producing zero returns based on blade play or lock failure. IMO, all of the other QC issues such as blade centering fall in line after that.
 
Well Guys, As Joe Houser states above , you have their eyes and ears on this thread. I don't have any knives with problems, but if you could provide photos you would be showing the supervisors the problems. I know it is hard to do photos sometimes but it is the best method to show them your issues. Cell phone cameras are pretty common, if you see a problem at a store take a photo with phone and either someone around you or we folks here will help you get it seen.


"In the end I would like Buck to be perfect but they are not. I can't gripe too loud because I get plain\unfancy $35.00 or less stockmen which are ment to be in the pockets of farmers, ranchers, woodworkers, carpet layers, dozer drivers etc. Buck says if they foul up we will fix situation. I want them to be perfect but will stretch perfect a little because of the price. This is my opinion and I am still appreciative and understanding of Razors and others situations and desires. When they get to the point they won't fix it in the end, I would like to hear about it......300Bucks "

This paragraph may seem to say I condone mistakes, which is not the case. I seldom, or make that never, buy 'new' knives from bay, belas or in bubble packages. So I can see what I am getting. Thats my personal method. I also realize that everyone can't do that and should not have too. I have to buy 'collector' knives unseen sometimes as the only method to get them. And have taken it on the chin and in the wallet a time or two or three. As group talk we easily complain here. It 'is' much harder to deal with sending in knives and even photos to the company to show our experiences. Especially in situations like Razors. If you remember I did a bad review here on the first Chairman series folder with photos and that went to Joe Housers email. I can tell you Joe commented to me personally, and I swear within a year those issues were not present. I doubt my review was a big factor in fixing things but it was seen at the factory. As a new BCCI board member I recieve the Buck Factory Newsletter on email and I can assure you there is lots of mention of quality control in the write ups and even showing photos of folks being promotoed some into quality control positions. I say in the future lets do good to provide details and photos to Buck and see what happens.....300
 
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300Bucks,

A picture won't capture the vertical play I have in mine. It's most obvious when cutting wood and pressing hard with my thumb on the back of the knife. I can feel the lockbar or blade move when pressing hard. I can replicate this by holding the handle in one hand and pulling back on the blade with the the other. I can feel the play.

Pictures are good for describing fit and finish issues. I fear we've conflated 2 classes of problems in this thread. Or actually, some of us have hijacked Razorblades original complaints along fit and finish issues and redirected it towards things like blade rub and blade play. If Buck is going to play in the higher end "boutique" or special run market as they do with the limited editions and customs, they have another set of QC issues with fit and finish and picture do help there. But, I can't make a video or take a picture of the blade play.

I hope everybody knows just how much many of us love Buck. I blame Al Bucks original message for making me a fan for life.
 
Pinnah, Pushing down on the blade with a piece of graph paper behind won't show anything helpful ? Thats my only idea......

Whats funny is I think I should shut-up as my Buck knife collection is made up of +80% Camillus made knives. Only the 20% made from 86 to 90 are Buck. I do have to admit I carry a new model as much as one of the classics. While in Branson,MO I went to the SOHs knife shop and they are really nice and the ladies behind the counter let me go through all the small Avids (20 or so) and I found one with really light grey scales with some red streaks. Blade was centered. I paid $5.00 more than the cheapest suppliers but I got to hand pick it. So for the record I will admit EDCing a Avid as much as a 303.

I will gladly help who and when I can with these issues with the small knowledge I have.....300
 
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300Bucks said:
This paragraph may seem to say I condone mistakes, which is not the case. I seldom, or make that never, buy 'new' knives from bay, belas or in bubble packages. So I can see what I am getting. Thats my personal method. I also realize that everyone can't do that and should not have too. I have to buy 'collector' knives unseen sometimes as the only method to get them......300
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Thanks for the clarification. I see and read your posts on another sub forum here and always enjoy them. But as you know, there have been some spirited dust ups about quality control and manufacturing techniques over there, and some folks are fine with issues or don't know what to look for.

For us guys that that are a little longer in the tooth, we remember the kind of product CASE, Buck and their contemporaries used to put out. And it just isn't a bunch of old guys sitting on the back porch telling their grand kids how it was in the old days.... the proof is out there. Not just mine, but there are thousands of old Bucks out there on the market that still lock up tight and are ready to work. Scales worn smooth, bolsters rounded, blades a little smaller than they started out in life, but ready to go. There are probably many here that have some of their old work knives. I do. With a few hundred thousand work miles on them they are still better examples of cutlery than many of the new knives and will probably outlast them.

I use your method 300, and have for the last many years unless I can buy from one particular vendor. He is the only one I trust. If it isn't from him, I don't buy any knife anymore without being able to handle the exact knife I am going to buy. It certainly isn't just Buck that is having their share of issues now.

Robert
 
Plumberdv said:
Here's Joe's reply to me today when I reminded him about this thread.

"Dave,

The tolerance the shop has is that as long as you can slide a piece of paper between the blade and the inside of the case, it is ok.

Anyway, I do hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Joe Houser

Director of Customer Relations
Buck Collectors Club Liaison
Company Historian"
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IMO, I think a piece of paper being slid between the blade and the liner/case isn't much of a tolerance, I find that a bit low tech.
 
I love Buck stuff, or I wouldn't be here as a Life Member. That being said, I like to see what I buy before I pay for it since sadly, I am not always happy with their newer product. I also had a bad experience with the custom shop (which another member really helped to make right for me). In the end though, 5th generation, American owned, Christian means something to me today.

I'm sure they struggle with their price point. I would love to see a "gold line" or something which was not custom shop but which was $x more that was going to be RIGHT from the door.
 
I'm not sure if my opinion of Buck is "colored" due to sentimental reasons, but I cut Buck more slack when it comes to fit and finish than companies like Case or especially GEC. I see Buck as working knives and a little blade play or off center blade doesn't bother me. I view Case and GEC as functional pocket jewelry and the fit and finish should match the nicely polished blade and bone handles, which sometimes it does, other times it doesn't. In fact I just bought another Buck 110 from Walmart tonight and from a quick inspection it's damn near perfect. I can't say the same for the 2 GEC lockbacks I recently bought and they cost 3 or 4 times as much.

All in all, every knife manufacturer has its hits and misses, what sets companies apart is how they handle the misses, and Buck does an excellent job at making things right for the customer.
 
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