it wasn't true. i did post at hoodep's threads only after he disappeared, while still

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ThievesLikeUs said:
GIZMOMAN, i can't say I agree with this logic at all. Maybe for an international sale, but as far as domestic, no. thats pretty unfair to the buyer.

Its your prerogative man, but for me a deal is not over till both parties are happy(unless someone is at fault ie: fraudulent custom form, not knowing local knife

laws.)
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This whole situation got me thinking. First off, I believe the seller is reponsible for getting the product to the buyer. If for whatever reason, the seller suspects their product WILL NOT reach the customer, under no circumstance should they send it, thats just irresponsible, regardless of their "terms"...

Also, what if the seller KNOWINGLY sends an item to a country where that item is PROHIBITED? Are they NOT held accountable at all for that...?

He did say buyers own risk... But, I think thats BS. If you think its not going to make it there DONT SEND IT JUST SO YOU CAN HAVE CASH IN YOUR POCKET NOW!

I think both parties are in the wrong here.

DONT sell a knife that is prohibited in the place youre sending it, and DONT send the knife in the first place if you think it wont make it, that seems very self centered.

DONT buy an item thats prohibited in your country, and READ and understands the terms of the sale.

That said, I dont think its fair for the seller to just brush his hands of this situation just because he said "not my problem" in the sales thread. Its the sellers responsibulity to get the product to the customer. Period.
 
morda said:
i already red the half of messages. yes, no blaming the seller, BUT i paid insurance and the only way is the sender to demand it from ems. if he agreed to ship with insurance, it automatically means it isn't insured just for fun! it is insured to not loose money if it is burned or stolen or other bad things, right? so he go and get it from ems, if he is a good man. thAt is the right thing in this deal.
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Hopefully one of the MODS here will contact the seller and try to get him to assist you in locating the knife, and assisting in getting your refund from the shipping outfit.


There are "distance regulations" in Europe that are written as law, that the seller is responsible for until the buyer has the item.

Im not sure if this has any effect on the situation, or if the United States has a similar law, but this should all be considered....
 
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Well, we know that hoodep claims to have filed for the insurance but had the claim denied as knives are considered restricted items to Russia (see his post in the now-closed thread). The buyer"s own words seem to back this up and also seem to show that the seller provided documentation as requested by the buyer.

So it isn't like the seller just washed his hands of the matter. He did what he could.

The knife was "stolen" in transit - not the sellers fault. The insurance was denied - not the sellers fault (IMHO, the buyer should be aware of his country's laws, not the seller).

Finally, the buyer accepted all (important word!) of the risks. Otherwise, the seller would not have sold to him.

Bottom line - the buyer lost out on this one when the insurance claim was denied. I don't know what more the seller could do other than return the money. But that is hardly fair when the terms were clear and the deal was contingent on those terms.

And situations like this are exactly why people are wary of selling outside of CONUS.

FWIW.
 
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SaintlyBrees said:
Well, we know that hoodep claims to have filed for the insurance but had the claim denied as knives are considered restricted items to Russia (see his post in the now-closed thread). The buyer"s own words seem to back this up and also seem to show that the seller provided documentation as requested by the buyer.

So it isn't like the seller just washed his hands of the matter. He did what he could.

The knife was "stolen" in transit - not the sellers fault. The insurance was denied - not the sellers fault (IMHO, the buyer should be aware of his country's laws).

Finally, the buyer accepted all (important word!) of the risks. Otherwise, the seller would not have sold to him.

Bottom line - the buyer lost out on this one when the insurance claim was denied. I don't know what more the seller could do other than return the money. But that is hardly fair when the terms were clear and the deal was contingent on those terms.

And situations like this are exactly why people are wary of selling outside of CONUS.

FWIW.
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I wouldnt send a knife I even faintly expected to not get there. Period. I feel that its my responsibility as a seller to get the item to the buyer. I couldnt have someone out 1000$ because I didnt want to wait a little longer for another buyer.

Buyers should be aware of their local laws, but so should the seller! They should know what theyre sending , and where.
 
Morda is out of a lot of money and I think if it were any of you in this situation you wouldn't want to be told your shit out of luck...get over it... its your fault. Looks like all he is looking for is some cooperation in trying to recover his money through the insurance that was purchased for the now lost package. Maybe give him a little more consideration and patience seeing as how English is obviously not his first language. I hope things work out for you Morda.
 
Bottom line
BUYER--I emphasize the word BUYER
Claimed --Consented--etc
""ALL RISK--UPON both parties agreeing--NOW that is that... after knife was sent.

Its like ..You bought a used car as is..NOW its mechanically messing up..YOU want the dealer or the seller to pay for repairs...
TERMS where agreed...Bought as is..With agreement made.

Car--Knife--Mule-- Terms agreed upon.. I SIMPLY do not feel the seller is accountable for this knife not getting too buyers hands.. DONE DEAL>.

Now ..Seeing as the TIME LAPSE between this ordeal..
And I am under the impression..EFFORTS have been made to reclaim insurance monies..

NOT quite seeing .The points made..WHERE as now some members want he SELLER to
give or help the buyer in some way reclaim his money lost??
If the seller filed a claim..
The KNIFE was claimed on a CUSTOMS SHEET as contents enclosed..
First RED FLAG entering Russia
It will be snatched or held by a thief and or anyone seeing it has value due to the
way Russia is run and the living systems..

My feeling...The seller arranged all he could.. Agreement etc.. Sent tracking info--Provided all as per the buyer/seller agreement.
AFTER it is dropped off at the PO..IT is no longer the SELLERS issue and or his responsibility after it is in the Postal Service hands then transferred to EMS postal delivery services..

Paying with gift..IF THAT was done-Simple Ignorance...-(which I dont believe a seller with "167" positive feedbacks would do)

Again as I stated in a comment long ago..

The buyer needs a person to help express himself and explain things more clearly too him..

As I being here for a long time..This is a HUGE REASON.. I Steer clear of OVERSEAS shipping.OR--I set down the GROUND rules
before even considering selling..I have been fortunate.. The VERY Few sales over seas..EVEN 2 to Russia have gone off without a hitch.

I truly hope with the Buyer-Seller- A Moderator perhaps..
This may be laid to rest soon.
This is a HUGE circle--Repeating the same things.. Over and over.. Considering this TRANSACTION took place.
A great bit of time ago..

Good luck with both parties

Keith
 
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My opinion, the seller has a responsibility to get the knife to the buyer or a refund. Period. Don't think it will make it safely? DONT send it.

The seller can put what ever clause or disclaimer they want in there post but that doesn't make it morally right or LEGALLY BINDING.

Haven't we all discussed insurance is for the seller, NOT the buyer?

These threads always show the snakes. Gotta love good bad and ugly!!
 
The insurance is worthless. USPS will make you jump through hoops, file appeals, and waste alot of time for a domestic claim. I promise you you'll never see a dime for anything that happens once it leaves our borders, ain't gonna happen. The insurance you buy is almost just a donation to the Postal Service. I'd be suprised if any of the other shipping services available would be any different. I feel for the buyer, but he did agree to those terms. I hate to say it cause we a lot a lot of great international brothers on here, but someone is gonna eat alot of money in a situation like this buyer or seller. It's not worth the loss. Even though we spend a lot on our toys, Not many of us can afford to throw away hundreds of dollars. Sad situation all around.
 
I think everyone has made some good points, well besides the OP :thumbup:

Like has been said many times, this is why I don't ship international, Canada maybe, but even then there can be issues that pertain to the international circumstances of the sale.

One thing that I don't think was ever answered is how was payment made? If it was answered, forgive me, I missed it. This makes a big difference. If it was through paypal goods then the responsibility is 100% on the seller. It does not matter what stipulations were agreed to in the sale, paypal's rules override. It is always funny to see the "net to me" thing and then the seller says insurance is extra and once it leaves my hands...blah, blah, blah. This is a sign of an ignorant buyer. If I pay net to you through paypal goods then insurances is on the seller and the onus to get the package to me is on the buyer. Of course this is all moot because of how long ago this transaction took place.

All of that paypal mumbo jumbo said, the buyer did agree to the terms. It sucks for him. He should have never done that. But he did. Further, the seller should have never shipped a knife to Russia. I Sure as heck would not have no matter what ridiculous price or terms were agreed to.

You throw in the facts that it has been so long, the buyer has poor communication, he had several accounts, and this happened in Russia, well I don't know what else to say. Both people screwed up a bit here but the buyer far more than the seller. I don't believe the seller owes the buyer anything.

I really do want to know how payment was made though. This would say a lot about both parties.
 
Very true if paid by PayPal goods, they don't care what agreement was made. The seller usually will be fully responsible for the loss. This should serve as a warning for buyers and sellers that someone is going to wind up eating it the loss, normally the seller. These types of agreements are probably best not to be made. And Laws are vastly different, strange that a folder is restricted in Russia. I would have never guessed that.
 
shinyedges said:
My opinion, the seller has a responsibility to get the knife to the buyer or a refund. Period. Don't think it will make it safely? DONT send it.

The seller can put what ever clause or disclaimer they want in there post but that doesn't make it morally right or LEGALLY BINDING.

Haven't we all discussed insurance is for the seller, NOT the buyer?

These threads always show the snakes. Gotta love good bad and ugly!!
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THIS!

The seller obviously had a feeling it may not arrive thats why he put the international shipping clause in the post. But he doesnt care, hes got his money.

Also, there were no contracts signed, so this mans correct, THAT CLAUSE IS NOT LEGALLY BINDING.

It is the sellers responsibility to get the item to the customer, and if they cant, they should either.

Not send it.

Or make it right.
 
TOMBSTONE said:
Very true if paid by PayPal goods, they don't care what agreement was made. The seller usually will be fully responsible for the loss. This should serve as a warning for buyers and sellers that someone is going to wind up eating it the loss, normally the seller. These types of agreements are probably best not to be made. And Laws are vastly different, strange that a folder is restricted in Russia. I would have never guessed that.
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heres the thing.... Folders ARENT restricted in russia. Their only law on "knifes" is that "the importation of weapons into the russian federation is prohibited".

So really... its up to the discretion of Russian customs. And they realized how much the knife was worth, and stole, and now claim "you imported a weapon which is prohibited".

This whole thing stinks...
 
stonproject said:
THIS!

The seller obviously had a feeling it may not arrive thats why he put the international shipping clause in the post. But he doesnt care, hes got his money.

Also, there were no contracts signed, so this mans correct, THAT CLAUSE IS NOT LEGALLY BINDING.

It is the sellers responsibility to get the item to the customer, and if they cant, they should either.

Not send it.

Or make it right.
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So what is legally binding here? We don't even know if a transaction took place. If paid with gift nothing actually happened here. The buyer cannot communicate exactly what happened. How did he pay? The buyer waited forever to bring this up. The Buyer trolled the sellers ads and then started a second account. The buyer did agree to terms of the seller. This all gets very complicated when you throw Russia and customs into the mix. The old "seller is responsible for delivery" gets very hard to apply in this instance. I mean, I sure wouldn't have sent that knife. That said, it is the buyers home country and he has to know the risk he is taking.

Again, both parties messed up here. Unfortunately in this case the loss will go on the buyer.

How did the buyer pay? Until this is answered we really can't make any more of this. If he did it the correct way (paypal goods) this would be a non issue. Paypal would have refunded him.
 
stonproject said:
heres the thing.... Folders ARENT restricted in russia. Their only law on "knifes" is that "the importation of weapons into the russian federation is prohibited".

So really... its up to the discretion of Russian customs. And they realized how much the knife was worth, and stole, and now claim "you imported a weapon which is prohibited".

This whole thing stinks...
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Exactly. These threads are going to have an impact on the amount of sales to folks internationally and to Russia specifically.
 
All outstanding points made.

If hoodep
DID his part and filed a claim

Stonproject..What better option do you think should transpire..??
ESPECIALLY if insurance was purchased..Claim filed. Claim denied.. SO you feel
the BUYER should fork over a refund and eat the sale..BECAUSE Russia confiscate knife perhaps?
I wouldnt...THAT is how I would handle it..You see it as wrong so be it.
AND especially RUSSIA Postal service BEING the most corrupt around..??
TERMS where CRYSTAL CLEAR--IF claim was filed and denied..
Such is life..BUYER potentially KNEW THE RISK upon the sale..
BUT NOW it falls on the buyer??? Not in my eyes...


BOTTOM LINE..
If you are uncomfortable to ship out of USA
DO NOT...
IF terms are agreed upon on both sides.
SORRY guys..
MY OPINION
Ethically--Morally
Whatever..
IT goes out the window when an item is agreed upon-Terms are concrete and well laid out..
The BUYER keeps his/her side of it and ships.
DONE DEAL>
That being said..
BUYER should NOT have stuck his had out there to get slapped ..IF He/she knows
the risk of the knife potentially not arriving..ESPECIALLY in RUSSIA..

Each person has their opinion.. view,,Morality code...
What have you..

SO much more of the BOTH sides need to be discussed and
presented...

Other than that..
Payment info..Needed..
If buyer tried to help file a claim?
Was it paid with goods?

Best result I see..
NOT much realistically for the buyer..?

It is what it is..Not to be frank/blunt..BUT Im just being realistic..

These are all MY VIEWS..I own that.. I also dont expect to make everyone happy..
You cant all the time.
I MERELY expressed my feelings on the loss of a knife and if IT WHERE me as a seller..
These overseas sales Tend to sometime come out and bite you in the ass. Therefore.
I personally WILL NOT SELL OVERSEAS after this enlightening ORDEAL..And I mean ORDEAL...:confused:
 
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GIZMOMAN said:
It is what it is..Not to be frank..BUT Im just being realistic..
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Another ambiguous thread, that I've tried my best to follow & comprehend...

And then, Gizmoman (Keith), comes along & casts suspicion to HIS, true identity...

Who the hell is, Frank??? :confused:


On a serious note: as hopeless as this scenario appears; best of luck to the OP.
 
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I have done two sales to that region one to Russia and one to the Ukraine . Both items reached the buyer thank goodness. Recently I had a valuable custom that was for sale and a man from Russia wanted to buy it. My policy right or wrong is once its been shipped you are on your own ,, I also only accept gift payments. Cold hearted maybe. But the thing is sometimes these guys are willing to take the risk. Its the only way they can get things they want. Sometimes they win and sometimes they loose. You just cant change the agreement after a loss.

In my case above the buyer and I came to a price and he sent the money to me. However it was PayPal goods so I reversed the deal. It was then I realized that it is just plain wrong to send these knives over there with such a high risk of not reaching the buyer. I really don't need the money that bad that I cant wait for a US sale and I certainly don't want a thread like this with my name attached.

I feel bad for the buyer .. It sounds like he doesn't have a lot of cash kicking around either which makes me wonder why he would risk so much.

I feel that the seller fulfilled his obligation and did what the seller asked. Fact is the knife is gone .. The Russian Postal service is corrupt this is well known . Seller knew it but he let his wants get in the way of reality .
 
Marko3 said:
I have done two sales to that region one to Russia and one to the Ukraine . Both items reached the buyer thank goodness. Recently I had a valuable custom that was for sale and a man from Russia wanted to buy it. My policy right or wrong is once its been shipped you are on your own ,, I also only accept gift payments. Cold hearted maybe. But the thing is sometimes these guys are willing to take the risk. Its the only way they can get things they want. Sometimes they win and sometimes they loose. You just cant change the agreement after a loss.

In my case above the buyer and I came to a price and he sent the money to me. However it was PayPal goods so I reversed the deal. It was then I realized that it is just plain wrong to send these knives over there with such a high risk of not reaching the buyer. I really don't need the money that bad that I cant wait for a US sale and I certainly don't want a thread like this with my name attached.

I feel bad for the buyer .. It sounds like he doesn't have a lot of cash kicking around either which makes me wonder why he would risk so much.

I feel that the seller fulfilled his obligation and did what the seller asked. Fact is the knife is gone .. The Russian Postal service is corrupt this is well known . Seller knew it but he let his wants get in the way of reality .
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^^^^
+1

To the OP: I actually completed a transaction, right after I joined here, with a very nice guy, from Moscow, Russia (Pavel). I sold him a Piranha automatic knife, after he contacted me and agreed that he would assume 100% responsibility. I followed his instructions, & shipped the knife the way he requested. Much to my surprise, everything worked out- he received his knife & was one happy comrade!

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...made-9100-auto-stryker-tanto***gerber-06-auto

We're only talking about a $120 transaction here; regardless, Pavel, must be doing something right...he has over 50+ positive transactions completed here on the forum (mostly International).

To be honest: I would have to think, long & hard (that's what she said;), before I would ship/buy a knife from most other foreign Countries...I've learned quite a bit since I first joined BF.

Always, PayPal Goods! :thumbup:
 
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Marko3 said:
I also only accept gift payments..
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Gift is always a bad idea and a no go for me, seller or buyer. As a seller, if I am worried enough about an item getting to its intended destination that I need to ask for gift or make special terms I will not do the deal. It is not worth it for me.

Nor would I send anything international besides Canada. Sorry international guys, but see this very thread as an example.
 
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