It's the 22nd!

Ellie,

Well first thing, Congrats to both of you. Second, yes I agree pre-order is a waiting list, but since one cannot get on it at any time, and it solves your size of waiting list issue for the most part as people pay up front, then yes, keeping it open would help some like me.

What an informative thread.

I'm not sure how some of Guy's ideals have translated into the brands current state. Back a few years ago when I was buying my first S!K knives there was nothing available and everything was pre-order like a Kickstarter. I was OK with that and was happy to help someone start a business and fund their dream.

I suppose that is a waiting list and certainly was complained about back then. Guy still had more ideas than time to execute them and specifically stated the product line was limited to allow production of current models to meet orders. Then there was the move etc.

Again I'm not complaining. I don't dream of being in a position to tell you guys how to run your business or feel entitled to buy your knives.

In my small business experience we continued to raise prices until sales dropped off and demand was about the same as supply. Price discovery. This massively improved average price per unit sold and got rid of a ton of bad customers. This was to provide a quality of life to the owner as he found out he had cancer but wanted to continue to follow his passion in work. His last 5 years were said to be some of his best. Business/life balance was never more enjoyable.

I've seen makers do a lottery, though that has it's own set of haters.

I'm sure some of your guys on the forum may consider me a one post wonder. I'm ok with that. I have a young family and a demanding career. I don't have time for much Internet forum chat.

But I would argue I'm the kind of customer a company like S!K wants. I'm ok waiting, I'm ok paying ahead of time. I just want a quality product and I'm willing to pay, I probably pay $500 average per knife. I don't think anything is wrong with the way things are if that's the way Guy & Ellie want them to be. I'm just trying to understand the customer relationship and business dynamic. Of course I respect the voluntary nature of their customer selection regardless of which side of the decision I fall on.
 
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SURVIVE! Ellie said:
There are also a lot of things that don't see the light of day because they don't pass our standards (for example: the entire run of GSO-4.1 Scandi knives). I know most people will tell us we need to raise prices to compensate for those things. But, we don't believe that the customer should be burdened by production inefficiencies. SURVIVE! doesn't exist because Guy wanted to create a huge company or to become a billionaire. He just wanted a quality knife at a sensible price. We are built on that concept and we intend to stick with it. The result, is less availability. Perhaps once we have been around as long as CRK we won't have these issues anymore. For now, we are doing what we can to produce as many knives as possible while staying true to our founding principles.
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There is so much wisdom in this statement. This business model is not only a guaranteed road to success but also something that you customer's and loyal fans can respect. Thank you guys for your intentions to stay true on this path, I wouldn't have it any other way. You refuse to comprimise quality for any reason and I love that about S! K. I for one, am very grateful for this and will be a front row supporter and fan for as long as you keep doing business in this manner.

PS: Congrats on your wedding and even though you say it's a formality don't forget to enjoy it as much as possible. We are all only young once and the worst thing in life is having regrets. Cheers and good luck to you both!
 
Hey guys, keep in mind Ellie called this exactly situation when she first announced Monday sales; knowing some would hate it just as some have hated the pre-orders and paying ahead of time and all the delays that came with that. This is their method to (hopefully) give them some space to breathe. Remember, the intention isn't that some people won't still have to wait - the intention is that people who have paid won't have to wait (as long) and that Guy/Ellie (congrats BTW!) & Christian can go home at a decent time and have a weekend now and then.

I know this whole thing has detractors, and I appreciate how the conversation has been kept aboveboard/professional.

If we all really want to help Survive! then we need to find someone who can sharpen knives like a pro, has a great work ethic, and take up a fund to pay for them to move to Kellogg! :)
 
redwood22 said:
Hale, I think you have a lot more built up capitol than the one post wonder ranters.
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JustinFournier said:
I'm sure some of your guys on the forum may consider me a one post wonder.
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Justin, first off I wanted to make sure you knew my comment wasn't directed towards you, but rather was and is directed towards posters that join BF for the sole purpose of posting one or two highly negative things simply to help make themselves feel better and then leave, never to be seen again. That kind of behavior be it in any form has never been productive or added any value.

Additionally, I think the time for business class via online forum to end. Survive! is their company, it is not our responsibility to try and arm chair qb them to success. They are the only ones who fully understand their past present and future. What a lot of these posts read to me, isn't about what is best for their company, but what is best for "me". It seems like now a days people take more pleasure in tearing people down and pointing out flaws, than celebrate what they do well. Let Survive! forge the path they want to, in the method and time-frame they feel comfortable with. If that means you can't easily buy a knife, tough cookie...life isn't always fair.

I wish BM would sell a Ritter grip with green micarta handles, there is clearly a market and I am sure they would do a good job, but they don't and they haven't gone out of business. I spent almost $250 building one myself ...crazy!!! some people won't be willing to do that and will never buy a griptillian, and BM still wont go out of business...

my point is, that there is NOTHING a company can do to please everyone, and while being customer focused is important, at the end of the day the market is what it is. Other brands have stepped in since survive! started doing their thing to try and grab some of their potentially miffed customers, and I am sure they have grabbed some...but clearly due to the still fevered demand it isn't that easy to replicate their mojo....sigh...I am sorry for the rant, and I want this to be clear that I am not trying to go after anyone here I just wish we would stop trying to play ceo of other peoples lives
 
I don't know anything about the "Go" idea, but maybe that could make sales more available or fair. That seems like a constructive idea!

As far as a lot of the venting goes, this is not SURVIVE!'s first rodeo and the backlash to their supply/demand situation isn't a new thing, sadly. There are a mix of customers here, some are pretty new and some have been around since the company first got started. If you feel like being depressed, search for the SURVIVE! threads from before our subforum was founded. They are largely mean and filled with complaints about preorders. Ellie said specifically before introducing the Monday sales idea that not everyone would like it. I know it's not fun to get home from work and realize you missed it, but there will be more Mondays. Whether it is the old threads I mentioned or the recent complaints about having to pay for a preorder and wait 8 months for the product, there was unhappiness about availability. Now there is brief yet regular availability, so just be careful what you wish for. It seems like some of the new guys got here after the 5.1 preorders and during the first weeks of the Monday sales. That might be one of the worst times for trying to get a new 5.1. As to some other suggestions, what would take more time and resources: finding, hiring, training new people or just working through the Monday sales and preorders? If the plan is to get all the preorders out and then do all business in the Monday format, I would imagine that when they get to that point output will be much more efficient.

Ellie has also stated that when picking two: good, fast, cheap; they picked good and cheap and are sticking with it. Whether the wait time or high prices weed out the less dedicated, there will be a compromise somewhere.

Wow, I got super rambly, but this thread (as cordial as we've been) has been bothering me and I wanted to try to get all my thoughts typed out.
 
Being so new I just think it is what is. I hate that saying but so true. I had some down time at work on Monday and got lucky. I placed the order for a 3.5 and paid knowing what it is. How can one complain? Keep trying I guess. I look forward to receiving the knives
 
On the Monday sales will it still mean that once a model batch is completed like the 5.1's now being sold, once they are gone they are gone until the next batch is made after all the other models? Or will there be a small amount offered year round of all the models as they come up in production?
 
This is how this all looks from my point of view: We are losing customers because they are frustrated that the knives are not readily available. "You should raise prices so that demand goes down." But that means we are losing customers because they are frustrated that they can't afford the knife. The other solution would be to lower our standard so we could make them fast enough to meet demand. But then we lose customers because the knives aren't as reliable.

No matter what we do, we are losing customers. So why not stick to our principles and do what we can to be the best we can be? I never said Monday releases was the end all answer to SURVIVE!'s problems. But it is an answer to Guy's problems. He is not going to be drained one day and start losing the passion. That happened back in 2013 with the business partner. We have been buried for 3 years and it has been exhausting. The idea for the Monday releases came about because morale was at an all time low and something needed to change. We have looked at all of these different options many times and we did not make this decision lightly. This is the decision where we can still live with ourselves at the end of the day. I completely understand the frustrations from people who have not been able to get one. All I can say is that it has only been two weeks, give it some time before writing the whole thing off as idiocy.

With all that being said, we do have an idea that would be a solution for this. I cannot provide details right now because it is in the VERY early stages. We will just have to wait (with all of our fingers and toes crossed) and see how it works out.
 
SURVIVE! Ellie said:
.....
With all that being said, we do have an idea that would be a solution for this. I cannot provide details right now because it is in the VERY early stages. We will just have to wait (with all of our fingers and toes crossed) and see how it works out.
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Hey, Ellie says they figured out how to clone Guy!!!
 
Psybull said:
On the Monday sales will it still mean that once a model batch is completed like the 5.1's now being sold, once they are gone they are gone until the next batch is made after all the other models? Or will there be a small amount offered year round of all the models as they come up in production?
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If there is still a ton of demand for a model, we will continue to work on them until the batch sells out. We are not currently planning to purposely hold some of the run back to release in between production runs. Mainly because we aren't thinking that we will need to. Future production runs are going to be much faster. I could order 800 GSO-5.1 sheaths right now and have them in a month. I couldn't have them that quickly before because the blades didn't exist yet to template off of.

It may appear that we are holding blades back for small releases later, if there are blades that don't pass QC but just need a little more time and care before they can pass QC.

I do fully expect the GSO-5.1 run to sell out before we can get more finished. Maybe the GSO-4.7s as well. After that, I am forecasting that customers won't even notice when a run sells out because the next batch will already be done.
 
SURVIVE! Ellie said:
This is how this all looks from my point of view: We are losing customers because they are frustrated that the knives are not readily available. "You should raise prices so that demand goes down." But that means we are losing customers because they are frustrated that they can't afford the knife. The other solution would be to lower our standard so we could make them fast enough to meet demand. But then we lose customers because the knives aren't as reliable.

No matter what we do, we are losing customers.
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Lose 50 pissed off customers, gain 100 patient new ones. That's a win-win in my book. Your product is speaks for itself and the quality is way higher than some companies that have been around for a long, long time.
 
I guess the main thing I'd like to say is this:

I love it that Ellie takes time to come here and interact with us. I appreciate that to no end, sister :thumbup:
 
Hard Knocks said:
I guess the main thing I'd like to say is this:

I love it that Ellie takes time to come here and interact with us. I appreciate that to no end, sister :thumbup:
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Agree 100% - while I appreciate everyone here and the things we learn and all, I really get excited when I see her updates. Never know what new information or update will be coming
 
SURVIVE! Ellie said:
No matter what we do, we are losing customers. So why not stick to our principles and do what we can to be the best we can be?

All I can say is that it has only been two weeks, give it some time before writing the whole thing off as idiocy.
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This gets at the core of what I tried saying earlier. I feel like this has to be mentally digested before making any more new business model suggestions.
 
Silver Needle said:
This gets at the core of what I tried saying earlier. I feel like this has to be mentally digested before making any more new business model suggestions.
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Plus, there are quite a few folks who have scored in the Monday sales. I'm thinking they are pretty happy with the model, and it's far from a failure.

I think all of us who frequent here are going to have to get prepared for the highs and lows (thrill of victory, agony of defeat :D) that the Monday sales bring.

As far as a 'Go' option, a quick post rotated each week between the social media Survive! uses - Bladeforums - Instagram - Facebook - etc. would work. Simply state in the newsletter that this week the 'Go' post for the Monday sale will be posted at 'X' time period on 'X' social media site. For example, "This week the Monday Sale will occur late afternoon PST. The Go/Heads up/Announcement will be posted on the Survive! subforum of Bladeforums ;) Then, immediately after listing the blades for sale on surviveknives.com, start a thread on the social media site that says, to the effect, Monday sale begins now!!!

That does a few things,

-builds demand for the newsletter that leads to educated customers
-builds following on the respective social media sites
-helps the customer narrow it down to one place to watch for the go
-gets everyone on the same page as to when is this happening/did this happen/did i miss it?
 
SURVIVE! Ellie said:
I do fully expect the GSO-5.1 run to sell out before we can get more finished. Maybe the GSO-4.7s as well. After that, I am forecasting that customers won't even notice when a run sells out because the next batch will already be done.
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A prediction of future inventory! :eek:
 
SURVIVE! Ellie said:
With all that being said, we do have an idea that would be a solution for this. I cannot provide details right now because it is in the VERY early stages. We will just have to wait (with all of our fingers and toes crossed) and see how it works out.
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The last time Ellie got all mysterious on us it resulted in the starter campaign. :)
I wonder how long I can hold my breath?
 
bluemetalchurch said:
There has got to be a better way of doing this. I reloaded the website all morning. Only saw 20CV available in the 5.1. I don't really want a stainless like that in a blade like the 5.1.
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Hey all -
This thread has wandered around a bit, but I have been meaning to ask about post #40 from Bluemetalchurch. Specifically, the comment about the 3V versus 20CV steel...

I'm relatively new to the knife forums, learning about the different steels. Can someone help me with info on these two steels, and the merits of one versus the other in "a blade like the 5.1" Is there a S!K steel thread I should review? I have read the info on S!K about these two steels. I get the corrosion resistance vs impact toughness trade off. I guess my question is how end users of these two would lean.

Thanks,
TR
 
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