Izula as a tactical fighter?

[Moloko Plus]

Are you so in love with the word "tactical" that you cannot see it is has outlived any value it only marginally had to begin with?

Just like "knifefighting." If someone tries to take you out of your car, they reach in and throttle you or grab you by the scruff and you have a baby in the car seat - you would probably be justified in using lethal force but you have to be able to articulate why - so your baby didn't get ejected by a criminal down the road...etc.

Your knife might be the only one in that fight, is it still a "knife fight" and does that knife have to fit the definition of a "fighting knife?"

There is not ONE knife made by ESEE/RAT that won't serve you well in almost any type of situation where you would have to use a knife against another human being. Kill your idols, stop your worship of meaningless words and hype and B.S. - start thinking beyond "knifefighting" as in two guys squaring off with knives. Expand your horizons. When you do, a whole new world will open up to you and you will truly have "survival tools."

Excellent reply!

 

[Don Rearic]

They label things so that people looking for a purpose, such as fighting or bushcraft, buy the right tool for the job.

The point is, "bushcraft" is the new "survival" knife. I have read NOTHING that would lead me to believe otherwise. It's just marketing and hype.

People need to know enough to make sure that the tool they are about to buy will work for them. What works for one won't work for another.

Yeah, you can't whittle well with a poniard.

For example, I don't like Kabars, because they are too heavy for me, so even though it is the stereotypical "fighting knife" because Marines have used it for camp chores for many years, and happened to kill a few badguys because it was what they had. I wouldn't want to buy a Kabar for my "fighting knife" even though it works for everyone else, I would prefer something thinner, wider, lighter and faster.

A Kabar is too "heavy" and you would prefer something THINNER than a Kabar? Are you serious?

I'm adding this to my list of cliches

No, it's not quite the same. When people say, "you will always be cut" or "guns are for show and knives are for pros" or "never bring a knife to a gunfight," those truly are cliches and even some very smart people mouth/type these meaningless bits of drivel. When I say, "kill your idols," that's exactly what I mean. Kill off the "tactical" this and "fighting" that, pare everything down and start from square one. "Bushcraft" is a current "idol" to some people and they condemn, again, knives like the H.E.S.T. because it doesn't fit the marketing or idolatry hype going on. Kill your idols. I don't think it is a cliche at all. Would you rather me say, "Stop believing in marketing hype and bull****?" I mean, it's the same thing to me, that is exactly what I mean.

It's just like when someone, out of thin air, invents some new type of knifefighting system that's just like someone else's stuff that has been out for years - marketing, hype, B.S.

One of the reasons many of us are in this sub-forum and support Mike and Jeff is because there is basically a total lack of B.S. with this company, these knives are excellent knives and I feel supremely confident in informing ANYONE that says these knives would not excel in self-defense that they don't know what they are talking about.

If ESEE wanted to come out with a true fighter, that would be quite interesting and THEN, Dylan's earlier post would be a laundry list of ideas to build on. But the more you get towards the IDEA of a PURE "fighting knife," the more you will get away from utility. Marines in the Pacific Theater occasionally broke Kabars because they were using them to hammer and pry with. I am sort of puzzled as to the Kabar being described as "thick." But Marines that were issued Sykes-Fairbairn and knives similar to them broke them more often, pressing them into service opening crates, etc.

If you want something that can serve in a wide variety of situations, I think all of the offerings from ESEE can serve well. They are geared towards "survival" and to me, "survival" means using them to save your life in a wide range of circumstances. That includes using them against human beings if need be.

 

[canadiantrailman]

registered user

 

[marcusthemonkey]

Something that I find very useful is to get together with some buddies, grab a few training knives and some paint, and try to knife fight. Have a look at how much paint you have on after. I am no expert knife fighter, but I train martial arts, and I trian with some top notch guys, and usually everyone ends up taking "damage" in this exercise regarless of skill level. Knife fighting is messy, I hope I never have to do it. If I did, I would prefer to have something other than an Izula (my RC-4 wouldn't be to shabby). What I really mean to say, is that before you worry about the knife, start worrying about your training and conditioning for this messy situation.

 

[ipm]

I would say its good since its consealable; however, i would rather have a crhirs reeve shadow III or a similar sized knife, perhaps like the HEST or RC3/4. the point shape on teh shadow III seems like its better tof thrusting type of moves. if reach is the point, then go for a buck 119 or RC6.

 

[Moloko Plus]

Something that I find very useful is to get together with some buddies, grab a few training knives and some paint, and try to knife fight. Have a look at how much paint you have on after. I am no expert knife fighter, but I train martial arts, and I trian with some top notch guys, and usually everyone ends up taking "damage" in this exercise regarless of skill level. Knife fighting is messy, I hope I never have to do it. If I did, I would prefer to have something other than an Izula (my RC-4 wouldn't be to shabby). What I really mean to say, is that before you worry about the knife, start worrying about your training and conditioning for this messy situation.

Agreed! There is no shortage of weapons to the properly trained individual. I actually prefer to train with household items as those will be the things at hand if I ever need a "tactical weapon" to solve a problem.

 

[Don Rearic]

Marcus,

There is nothing wrong with having tests as long as they don't devolve into a bizarre game of tag because in the real world where stuff spurts and things fall off or hang off...what I am trying to say is, you have to be very careful that you don't draw the wrong conclusions from doing that.

A red Sharpie marker will change some minds...

Here is the human paradox, the human body is incredibly tough and can take more abuse than you can imagine. Simultaneously, it's very fragile, too. One guy can get stabbed and go right down and this can be because of real damage, perhaps the abdominal aorta was hit and they lost consciousness that fast...or maybe it wasn't and their programming from watching movies or whatever made them fall down. Another guy can have his intestines coming out and he's holding them in and he walks seven blocks to a hospital...another guy walks five blocks to the hospital with the knife still in him and the knife has perforated his heart.

The beautiful killshot in training oftentimes won't mean a thing on the battlefield or the street. Shoot to slidelock and cut and thrust until they get off of you, etc. Same thing with a telescoping baton, strike them until they get off of you or they are knocked unconscious, whatever the goal is, etc.

You can train yourself to respond in a way that will get you killed, as well. That is what I am trying to say. You can get that Sharpie right across someone's neck and think, "He's over." He has enough oxygen left in his brain to kill you at that distance.

There are many different ways to look at this.

 

[crowdog]

Something that I find very useful is to get together with some buddies, grab a few training knives and some paint, and try to knife fight. Have a look at how much paint you have on after. .

Sharpie Markers work as well for training; try disarming/escaping c.q. as another is attacking with a Sharpie.

 

[GunnerP]

Izula as a tactical fighter?

I was going to comment, but have very limited experience of knife fighting. I always carried a knife on active duty but never had reason to use it.

My government, and yours I might add (I had the pleasure of working with the USAF on several occasions) kindly made sure that I had ample amounts of ammunition and explosives so as to render my little blade somewhat redundant.

I mean, why get close enough to stab someone when a friendly pilot is just a call away with enough firepower to destroy a small country:thumbup:

GunnerP
RAF Regiment (Retired)

 

[Fletcher Knives]

Wow. I don't even remember having answered this last night. I'm glad that post came out as well as it did. lol.

 

[Don Rearic]

I was going to comment, but have very limited experience of knife fighting. I always carried a knife on active duty but never had reason to use it.

My government, and yours I might add (I had the pleasure of working with the USAF on several occasions) kindly made sure that I had ample amounts of ammunition and explosives so as to render my little blade somewhat redundant.

I mean, why get close enough to stab someone when a friendly pilot is just a call away with enough firepower to destroy a small country:thumbup:

GunnerP
RAF Regiment (Retired)

Context, context, context. Our government pays Instructors like Kelly Worden to teach people like USAF Combat Controllers how to utilize knives for defensive purposes.

 

[Spenceds]

I mean, why get close enough to stab someone when a friendly pilot is just a call away with enough firepower to destroy a small country:thumbup:
(Retired)

Because sometimes you won't be able to make that call soon enough:thumbup: That and the couple minutes waiting for the "RAIN" can be a LOOONG time, that I do know from experience.

 

[Don Rearic]

I have an old CBS interview with a rescued pilot from a special series on Vietnam - harrowing story! USAF Combat Controllers and PJs are something else man!

Then, I found this stinky pack of four DVDs at Chinamart that had a lot of old Marine Corps, Army, Air Force and Navy documentaries about Vietnam. They had a great one, "So that others may live" on PJs.

If I were a PJ, you better believe I would have that rifle, pistol and maybe another pistol or three pistols.

But I would most certainly have been schooled in FMAs and I would be like a porcupine.

 

[snorkem]

i dont think so, too thick, not enough reach, not enough penetration, a longer thinnner knife would be better.

 

[Don Rearic]

There you have it! Why bother reading, overrated endeavor.

 

[marcusthemonkey]

Don,

I was actually trying to get the same point you made across (clearly I wasn't coherent enough). I completely agree with you. Another point I was trying to convey is that people's perception of "knife fighting" usually changes once they have actually tried it. Thanks for the great post!

 

[Dizwolf]

Wow a lot of emotion in this thread. Can be a good thing sometimes.

Let's face it, almost anywhere here carries a knife on them daily for a variety of reasons. If the back part of everyones head, or foremost for some, is the idea of using it to defend ourselves. Now, some people have the training for this. Most, like myself, probably do not. Would I wind up getting myself killed? That's both possible and probable. If I was attacked am I going to pull whatevers in my pocket out and try to do something with it? Most likely if I've got a breath left in me.

In several firearms threads the issue of sd has come up. Each time, training was stressed over and over and multiple reasources for it listed. Fives pages in this thread, and I've seen training mentioned a few times, but it's mostly been attacking each other and not much useful info. Which is unlike this group usually.

What would be an effective knife to keep around the pocket, and how would you suggest using it. Part of the issue I think with the strife in replies here, is most people are thinking of diffrent contexts, from meeting up with fully trained and armed assalants, to unarmed unskilled aggressors. So specific ideas to specific context would get us somewhere.

I'm honestly interested in replies, not intending to stoke the coals.

 

[Don Rearic]

In several firearms threads the issue of sd has come up. Each time, training was stressed over and over and multiple reasources for it listed. Fives pages in this thread, and I've seen training mentioned a few times, but it's mostly been attacking each other and not much useful info. Which is unlike this group usually.

It's sort of hard to tell people how to use a knife or what to look for in a school when they're either arguing from a point of ignorance or posting mental masturbation or other retarded behavior.

If you don't think there is much useful info in this thread, you either can't see it or don't know it or something else.

What I started off on was a person posting a stupid graphic that basically called the OP dumb. I'm not going to go over and over about this, that's the word on the illustration/picture and that's what crowdog intended to do or he would not have posted that graphic. It's a way of calling someone dumb without actually typing it. Yet, he is not exactly in the brain-trust when it comes to this subject so, yeah, that stuff is boring online.

So, when you say that this is unlike this group, I AGREE WITH YOU. There is something about the testicles and knives that get's a guy. Start a thread about cleaning squirrels with an Izula and people won't beat the thread down with their opinions on better ways to do it, etc. Using a knife on a human being? Look out! Send...in...the...clowns.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not to their own facts.

What would be an effective knife to keep around the pocket, and how would you suggest using it. Part of the issue I think with the strife in replies here, is most people are thinking of diffrent contexts, from meeting up with fully trained and armed assalants, to unarmed unskilled aggressors. So specific ideas to specific context would get us somewhere.

I'm honestly interested in replies, not intending to stoke the coals.

The problem is, people really have to drop their prejudices in the toilet and flush them. All of the bringing a knife to a gunfight - yadda - yadda - yadda - chunk it right in the crapper. Knife on knife, sometimes! Mostly...not. Multiple attackers and a host of other things is the way people should mold their mindset so they don't get hooked on the concept of "KNIFEFIGHTING" or "tactical."

I think any person can take Filipino Martial Arts to learn the footwork, not all schools will teach knives. Some of them reserve that to the asskissers or the people with the most money to spend. So, there might not be a school where you live that teaches "knife," per se. So, you learn the sticks and you learn the all-important footwork and then you can attend seminars from other people that have no problem teaching knife and you can supplement that with DVDs which you can learn from as long as you have the hands-on regarding footwork and range and they have taught you some stick. Sticks are, obviously, different from knives, but the angles don't change.

 

[Spenceds]

they're either arguing from a point of ignorance or posting mental masturbation or other retarded behavior.

ROFLMAO. . .that would make a good sig line!

 

[Wanderlust]

So this whole discussion got me to thinking about knives and tactical knives and knife fighting. I decided that the absolute best tactical knife fighting knife is a sword, it is the only knife that I can think of that its only purpose is to be used in a fight. They were used for years as the primary means of fighting and defense, Knight, Samurai's, the Calvary, all used this as a fighting weapon and I know they were not used for cutting up a loaf of bread or opening letters with them. Just some food for thought.

On a more serious note, and more in line with the flow of this thread, I think that whatever knife you plan to use, in a defensive situation, should be the knife your most comfortable with. If you do get into a high stress situation I would believe that you would want a knife that you know better then the back of your hand, one that you don't even have to think about using you just grab it and your body just goes into reflex mode. This is one thing that I stress about my EDC, it is always carried in one of two places, clipped in my RF pocket or clipped IWB at 3:00 (situationally dependent). Any time I need a knife I never think about where it is or how to open it, I just grab it and start cutting. I feel like this is important for any high stress situation be it a defensive "tactical" situation, or having to cut yourself out of an entangled mess of some sort, such as an accident, or something of the like. To me muscle memory is key in something like this so that while your body is not responding correctly to your mind's command your hand already has your knife in it and is doing what needs to be done. Now it doesn't matter what this knife is be it a Ka-Bar or Izula, I think it is crucial to be extremely comfortable with it. Plus some training would be very helpful in a life or death situation.